Proceedings of the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly assembled after the First General Election. 

Thursday, the 6th July, 1972

Assembly met at 10.00 O' Clock with Mr. Speaker in the Chair. 


Questions and Answers     

STARRED QUESTIONS 

(To which oral replies were given ).

Mr. Speaker : Starred Question No.41. Prof. Majaw. 

Grant for Bhoilymbong -Kyrdem Road

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

*41. Will the Minister-in- charge of Finance be pleased to state - 

(a)

Whether the 2nd May 1970 at Kyrdem the Minister has promised a sum of Rs. 24,000 as a grant for the construction of the road form Bhoilymbong to Kyrdem?

(b)

Whether the Minister is aware of the fact that until this month of June, 1972, the money has not been received nor has it been utilised?

Shri Brington Buhai Lyngdoh (Minister, Finance ) replied :

41.(a)

-The Minister did not promise any specified amount, but assured that the people's demand for improvement of the road would considered by the Government. Accordingly, a sum of Rs. 23,500 was sanctioned during 1970-71.

(b)

-The above amount had been utilised for the Bhoilymbong Kyrdem Road. 

Prof. M.N. Majaw (Mawhati S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, has the entire amount been utilised?

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Finance ) : Yes. 

Prof. M.N. Majaw : May we know the year when the money was utilised?

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Finance ) :- 1971. 

(Starred Question No.42. Not put Member being absent ) 

Starred Question No.43. 

Depredations of Paddy Fields by wild elephants 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

*43. Will the Minister -in-charge of Agriculture be pleased to state-

(a)

What steps do the Government of Meghalaya intend to take to put a complete stop to disastrous depredations by wild elephants in paddy fields  in several villages in the Bhoi area?

(b)

What steps have the Government to Meghalaya taken during 

(c)

Whether the State Government is aware of the fact that those elephants cause damage during two seasons; namely , during the sowing seasons hen they trample on the young tender plant in search of bamboo shoots and then during the harvest season when the elephants  eat up all the crops?

(d) 

What steps have the state Government taken in the meantime to supplement the losses caused to thousands of farmers in the Bhoi area by those wild elephants?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Agriculture etc ) replied :

43.(a)

-The Government has not received any report on the destruction by wild elephants in the Bhoi area. 

(b)

-It does not arise in view of above reply at (a).

(c)

-No such report has been received in the past. 

(d) 

-In the absence of a detailed report on the matter the Government could not consider any step.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Whether all those replies cover also the District level?

Mr. Speaker : The question is whether at the district level no complaints have been received?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture ) : Not to our knowledge, Mr. Speaker, Sir. 

Shri Maham Singh (Mawprem ) : Has Government received any official information regarding these matters?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture ) : The reply is that Government has not received any report so far, official or otherwise. 

Prof. M.N. Majaw : On a point of information, Sir,..........

Mr. Speaker : This is not the time to seek information. 

Prof. M.N. Majaw : I would seek guidance form the Chair in the sense that since the Minister has made a categorical statement that no complaint has been received, would be a matter sufficient for a privilege motion, if it is  proved later that thousands of complaints have been submitted?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : The reply is not categorical, Sir. The Government has not received any report. 

Mr. Speaker : The hon. Member asked if these answers are to be proved otherwise in future, can he take up a privilege motion?

        But let us cross the bridge when the time comes. 

Complaints from the Raitong Villagers

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw  asked : 

*44. Will the Minister-in- charge of Agriculture be pleased to state-

(a)

Whether he has received a complaint from the villages of Raitong, Mylliem Syiemship concerning the collection of "pocket money" by an Extension Officer from 26 villagers on the plea that he would thereby help them to get their minor irrigation grants?

(b)

If he letter has been received, what action does the Government intend to take in the matter?

Shri Edwingson Bareh ( Minister, Agriculture ) replied : 

44.(a)

-The Agriculture Department has not received any complaint .

(b)

-Does not arise. 

   Discovery of under-ground source of water 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

*45. Will the Minister -in- charge of Public Health Engineering be pleased to state-

(a)

Whether it is a fact that under ground  water in the European Ward of Shillong has been discovered?

(b)

If so, what is the capacity of the under -ground source of water?

(c)

If the answer to question (a) above is in affirmative, when will the State Government be able to supplement the water Supply of Shillong to a satisfactory extent?

Shri G.A. Marak (Minister-in-charge of Public Health) replied :

45.(a)

-Yes

(b)

-One thousand two hundred and fifty gallons per hour (approximately).

(c)

-The scheme is exclusively undertaken for the Pinewood Hotel at Shillong and the cost is borne by the Pinewood Hotel Management.

Prof. M.N. Majaw : May we know the type of machine that was used for drilling of this underground water ?

Shri G.A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D.) : It is a drilling machine, Sir. 

( Laughter )

Prof. M.N. Majaw : Whether the Government is aware of the fact that the same type of machine had been used in Goalpara district and it was proved to be a failure after crossing the depth of forty feets or so?

Mr. Speaker : Goalpara is in Assam and it is difficult for the Minister to answer whether they used the same machine or not. 

Shri G.A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D)  Government is not aware of the fact. 

Shri P.R. Kyndiah (Jaiaw S.T.) : I think the question is what type of drilling machine?

Shri G.A. Marak ( Minister of State, P.W.D.) : The drilling machine was brought from foreign countries and it can go more than one hundred fifty feet deep and even rock and solid rocks also.

(Starred Question No.46. Not put, Member being absent).

Number of Sub divisional Collectors.

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna asked : 

*47. Will the chief Minister be please to state- 

(a)

How many S.D.Cs are there in Jowai, Tura and Shillong?

(b) 

Whether it is a fact that the two Deputy Commissioner in Shillong who are having daily dealing with the public especially villagers do not know the local tribal language?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister ) replied :     

47.(a)

-Jowai

........

.......

........

........

 One.

 

Tura

........

......

.......

........

One.

Shillong

.......

........

.........

.......

Four.

        (b) - The Deputy Commissioner does not know the Khasi language.

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna (Nontalang S.T.) :- Sir, there is some wrong in Question 47 (b), it should be S.D.Cs. and not Deputy Commissioners and I have corrected it.

Mr. Speaker :- The question is whether it is a fact the two S.D.Cs. in Shillong who are having daily dealings with the public especially villagers do not know the local tribal language?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- According to information available, among the four S.D.Cs. in Shillong two of them do not know Khasi and the other know Khasi. The two S.D.Cs. viz., Shri H.B. Sawian and Shri H.L. Pde know Khasi and other two are Shri E.L. Marak and Shri P. Chakravarty. Of course I personally know that Shri Marak knows Khasi and Shri Chakravarty does not know.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- What is the name of the S.D.C. who is also the Land Acquisition Officer, among the four?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I will give the information, Sir. Shri A.K. Roy and he is dealing with defence purposes.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Does Mr. A.K. Roy know Khasi?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- From the name itself it will be known to the hon. questioner that unless he take special course for learning Khasi, how can he know Khasi.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- In the matter of land acquisition for defence purposes would the officer concerned have to deal with the public in the villages?

* Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I may inform the House that all the tribal officers in the State of Assam - almost all of them - have been taken in the Meghalaya Administration. In fact, with regard to the land acquisition and compensation matters for defence purposes, the Government is finding it very difficult to dispose of all the cases. I would request the hon. Member to realise this. I am sorry, Mr. Chakravary has passed Khasi language and Mr. A.K. Roy does not know. But as I said, from the very name, it will be seen that unless he takes special course for learning Khasi language, he would not know it. I would inform the House that it will not be possible at this stage to man all offices with the tribal A.C.S. II Officers who are conversant with Khasi language and who have the knowledge of either Garo or Khasi.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Whether Government is aware of the fact that at the time when the Land Acquisition Officer was appointed from among that 4 Officers, Mr. Pde was the senior most officer?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Revenue) :- Mr. Roy was appointed as Land Acquisition Officer before Mr. Pde joined.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- It is a matter of opinion.

Shri Edwingson Bareh :- But it is a fact.

UNSTARRED QUESTION

( To which replies were laid on the Table )

The number of recipients of loans

Shri Nimosh Sangma  asked :

62. Will the Minister-in-charge of Industries be pleased to state-

(a) The number of recipients of loans under rupees five thousand and above five thousand?

(B) Who are the persons who have received Industrial loans above rupees five thousand  in Garo Hills and for what purposes?

Shri Stanley D.D. Nichols-Roy (Minister, Industries)  replied :

62.(a) - The number of recipients of loans under rupees five thousand for the year 1970-71 is 68 and for the year 1971-72 is 237. 7 (seven) persons received loans above Rs.5,000 in 1970-71.       

     (b)- No loan above rupees five thousands was granted to any person in Garo Hills.

Vacancies in Sericulture Offices in Garo Hills.

Shri Choronsing Sangma  asked :

63. Will the Minister-in-charge of Sericulture be pleased to state -

(a) Whether there are vacancies in Sericulture Offices in Garo Hills?

(b) If so, how many posts are falling vacant and what are the names of the vacant posts?

Shri Stanley D.D. Nichols-Roy (Minister, Sericulture)  replied :

63. (a) - Yes.

     (b) - The number and names of vacant posts are as follows :-

(i) Reeling Expert.....

...

.......

........

1

(ii) Sericulture Demonstrator......

...

.....

.....

7

(iii) Operator .......

...

.....

...

2

Setting up of Employment Exchange

Shri P. Ripple Kyndiah  asked :

64. Will the Minister-in-charge of Labour be pleased to state -

(a) Whether Government of Meghalaya have considered the question of setting up its own Employment Exchange? 

(b) - Does not arise.

Mr. Speaker :- Let us take up unstarred questions 65 and 66 at a time.

Setting up of Government Printing Press.

Shri Sanford Marak (Minister of Labour) replied :

64.(a) - The three Employment Exchanges at Shillong, Jowai and Tura came over to the administration and control of the Government of Meghalaya with effect from the 21st January, 1972 on the attainment of full Statehood. 

     (b)- Does not arise.

Mr. Speaker :- Let us take up unstarred questions 65 and 66 at a time.

Setting up of Government Printing Press.

Shri P. Ripple Kyndiah  asked :

65. Will the Minister-in-charge, Printing and Stationery be pleased to state-

(a) When the Government of Meghalaya is going to set up its own Printing Press?

(b) Whether any action have been taken in this regard, such as for requisitioning and appointment of staff in this regard?

65. (a) - The Assam Government Press at Shillong is deemed to have come under the ownership of the Government of Meghalaya with effect from the 21st January, 1972. As such the question of setting up a new Printing Press of our own does not arise.

    (b) - The list of staff to be permanently absorbed in the Press is being taken up.

Taking over of Assam Government Press.

Shri D.N. Joshi  asked :

66. Will the Minister-in-charge, Printing and Stationery be pleased to state-

(a) Whether it is a fact that the Printing works of all the Meghalaya offices are printed in the Assam Government Press?

(b) Whether Government contemplates to take over all the management of the Assam Government Press?    

(c) If so, when?

(d) If not, why not?

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister-in-charge, Printing and Stationery)  replied :

66. (a) - Yes, except those cases which cannot be executed by the Government Press due to pre-occupation with more important matters.

    (b) - Yes.

    (c) and (d) Government is taking up the matter with the Government of Assam.

Shri Humphrey Hadem (Mynso-Raliang S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in 65 (a), may I know who is the actual owner of the Shillong Government Press at present?

Mr. Speaker :- The answer is there that it is deemed to have come under the ownership of the Government of Meghalaya with effect from the 21st January, 1972.

* Shri Humphrey Hadem :- But the word "deemed" is being used. I am asking about the actual ownership at present.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Whether Government is aware of the fact........

Mr. Speaker :- The Government has not replied to the question of Mr. Hadem.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Printing and Stationery) :- This according to the Re-organisation Act, is deemed to have come under the ownership of the Government of Meghalaya and the matter is taken up with the Government of Assam for handing over.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether Government is aware of the fact that ever since the taking over from 21st of January, 1972, the staff working overtime even at night did not get the overtime allowance.

Mr. Speaker :- That is a different question altogether.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Whether Government is aware that there is one printing machine which is still in a packing case brought from Punjab and which has not been installed and is lying there for over a year.

Mr. Speaker :- The Minister has already replied that the process of handing over is yet to take place.

Unstarred Question 67

Shifting of All-India Radio

Shri P. Ripple Kyndiah asked :

67. Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state -

(a) Whether Government have taken steps for the shifting of All-India Radio from the present building in order to give more room for the Legislative Assembly Secretariat?

(b) If so, when will All-India Radio shift?

(c) Is it a fact that time and again this matter was raised in the House?

(d) If so,  what is the reason for not being able to shift the said All-India Radio?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

(a) - Yes.

(b) - When their new Studio building is ready.

(c) - It was raised in the House in 1971.

(d) The new All-India Radio Studio building is not yet ready. According to the All-India Radio shifting to any rented temporary building cannot be done as that will seriously dislocate the day to day functioning of the All-India Radio.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Sir, what about unstarred question No 66?

Mr. Speaker :- I have already said that unstarred questions No.65 and 66 will be taken up at the same time:

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Sir, I want to raise a point of order.

Mr. Speaker :- This is an unstarred question and I did not even called the name of the hon. member. So, the point of order at every steps is uncalled for.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- In 67 (d), has any site been selected Sir?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I have informed the House that the site has been selected near the Government House.

Unstarred Question No.68

Number of Posts and Employees of P.W.D. in Garo Hills.

Shri Nimosh Sangma  asked :

68. Will the Minister-in-charge of P.W.D. (R. and B.) be pleased to state -

    (a) The total number of posts as Upper Division and Lower Division Assistants in the different Divisions and Sub-divisions of P.W.D. in Garo Hills?

    (b) What is the total number of Garo Employees in different Grade of services including Grade IV services in the Department?

Shri G.S. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D. [(R. and B.)] )replied:

68. (a) - The total number of posts as Upper Division and Lower Division Assistants in the different Divisions and Sub-divisions of P.W.D. in Garo Hills is indicated in the list (flag 'A') placed on the table of the House.

    (b) - The total number of Garo Employees in the different grades of services including Grade IV services in the department is indicated in the list ( flag 'B') placed on the table of the House.

Unstarred Question No.69

Recommendations of the Central Land Reforms Committee

Shri Parsvanath Choudhury  asked :

69. Will the Minister-in-charge of Revenue be pleased to state -

(a) Whether the Government proposed to carry out reforms in the State of Meghalaya on the basis of the recommendations of the Central Land Reforms Committee?

(b) If so, when do the Government propose to bring a legislation on this?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Revenue)  replied :

    69. (a) and (b) - The recommendations of the Central Land Reforms Committee on Ceiling would be examined with reference to the local condition. It is not possible to indicate any conclusion at present.

Unstarred Question No.70

Nongstoin Water Supply Scheme

Shri Francis K. Mawlot asked :

70. Will the Minister-in-charge, Public Health Engineering be pleased to state -

(a) Whether it is a fact that Government has accorded sanction to the Public Health Engineering for the Nongstoin Water Supply Scheme and how much?

(b) Whether the scheme is being implemented?

(c) If not, why not?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D.)  replied :

70. (a) - No.

(b) and (c) - Do not arise.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot (Nongstoin S.T.) :- Sir, whether the water supply scheme for Pyndengrei village is taken from the source at Mawthangniaw village and the veterinary dispensary is not taken up by the P.H.E.

Mr. Speaker :- That is a different question altogether. You have asked in your original question only for Nongstoin.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- But Sir, these villages,  viz.,  Pyndengrei, Nongwah and Nongshram are different localities of Nongstoin.

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D.) :- In that case, the question is covered by the same answer.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- May I know whether it is a fact that this Pyndengrei Water Supply Scheme which has already been taken up was a complete failure?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D.) :- Government is not aware of it.

Unstarred Question No.71

Construction of the Rymbai-Borghat Road

Shri Lewis Bareh  asked :

71. Will the Minister-in-charge, P.W.D. (R. and B.) be pleased to state-

    (a) How far the construction of the Rymbai-Borghat Road had been completed?

    (b) The names of the Overseer-in-charge of the road and the names of Section Assistant's posting for the maintenance of the road?

    (c) The Labour strength of the Muster Roll engaged to each of the Sectional Assistant in their respective beats in this road?

    (d) Whether any surprised visit had ever been made by the Sub divisional Officer, Publics Works Department, in-charge to the daily Muster Roll under the Sectional Assistant?

    (e) Whether Government have ever received a resolution sent by the Secretary of the Khliehriat Durbar held on 10th May, 1972 for the same?

    (f) If so, what action Government proposed to take?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak [Minister of State P.W.D. (R and B.)] : replied :

71. (a)- The process of construction of the remaining length of Rymbrai- Borghat Road from Lama to Borghat 7 K.Ms. approximately is -Formation 90 per cent completed. Construction of 2 Nos bridges and culverts are remaining to be done. The portion from Rymbai to Lama-49 Kms. in length is already completed. 

        (b)- Shri Jesses Bareh (Subordinate Engineer) in-charge and the Section Assistants posted for maintenance of the roads are-

1.

Shri Nowel Phawa

2.

Shri Bihon Pala

3.

Shri Bhaigirot Singh

4.

Shri Hoyer Suchiang.

5.

Shri Markos Talang.

        (C) - The sanction labour strength maintained by the above Section Assistants are 
                    Beat No.1-8 Nos.
                    Beat       2-6   "
                    Beat       3-6   "

        (d) - Yes the Muster Rolls are duly checked.

        (e) - No such resolution has been received by Government.

        (f) - Does not arise.

Shri Lewis Bareh (Rymbai S.T.) :- In 71 (a), whether the remaining portion of the Rymbai-Borghat Road will be completed during the current financial year?

Mr. Speaker :- His question is whether the remaining portion of the road should be completed within the current financial year?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D.) :- Government expected to complete the road within this financial year.

Shri Lewis Bareh :- Whether the Government are aware of the fact that the said road is in need of further extension?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D.) :- Government is not aware of it.

Shri Edward Kurbah :- May we know whether any female labourer is engaged in the work?

Mr. Speaker :- Is Government aware that there are some females labourers engaged in the work?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D.) :- Government is not aware of this particular question.

Unstarred Question No.72 

Re : Acquisition of lands at Nongsder-Umden-Umrynjah

Shri Dlosingh Lyngdoh asked :

72. Will the Minister in-charge of Land Revenue be pleased to state -

(a).

Whether it is a fact that the Government of Meghalaya have been acquired lands at Nongsder-Umden-Umrynjah of Umroi Constituency for the defence purpose?

(b).

If so how many acres of land have been acquired?

(c).

How many more acres to be acquired?

(d)

What are the village affected or to be affected by this acquisition of land?

(e)

Whether it is a fact that compensation of the plot of land already acquired were paid to the tillers of the soil?

(f)

If so, how much per acre?

(g)

Is there any Raj lands or lands occupied by the Nepalis among the plots of land where compensation have been paid?

(h)

How many acres of such land and what amount of money paid?

(i)

To whom the compensation has been paid?

(j)

Whether the Government of Meghalaya are contemplated for the rehabilitation of the poor cultivators who have lost their lands and homes in that area due to acquisition?

(k)

If so, when and where the rehabilitation will be provided?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Revenue) replied :

72.(a).

- Yes.

(b).

- About 1,400 acres.

(c).

- About 2,536 acres.

(d)

- Nongsder, Rangmen, Umladew, Thabalieh, Ummluh, Mawkapiang, Umden, Umroi, Mawpun Umpangmat, Umprew and Umrynjah.

(e)

- Yes, in cases where persons have occupancy rights, except those claimants who did not turn up to receive payment and few cases with are under disputes.

(f)

- Compensation is respect of 1,400 acres of acquired land is as follows :-

(i)

Paddy land Rs.4,600 per acre.

(ii)

Homestead land Rs.4,600 per acre.

(iii)

Garden land Rs.1,250 per acre.

(iv)

Cultivable land Rs.750 per acre.

(v)

Waste land Rs.400 per acre.

(g)

- No compensation was paid to Nepalis who occupied Raj land.

(h)

- Does not arise.

(i)

- Does not arise.

(j)

- No due compensation was paid to them for their land and houses.

(k)

- Does not arise.

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh (Umroi S.T.) :- In 72 (b) Whether those affected villagers by the land acquisition have been shifted to some other place?

Mr. Speaker :- Your question must be in some other form-whether Government is taking steps to shift the population from those villages ?

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh (Umroi S.T.) :- Thank you, Sir.

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Revenue) :- Sir, full compensation has been paid to them for their shifting to some other places.

Private Tuition by Teachers

Shri G. Mylliemngap asked :

73. Will the Minister in charge of Education be pleased to state -

(a).

Whether private tuition by teachers is departmentally allowed?

(b).

If not, what checks have been exercised in this matter?

Shri Darwin D. Pugh (Minister of State, Education) replied :

72.(a).

- Yes, Sir.

(b).

- Does not arise.

 Relief to displaced children in the Border Areas.

Shri Nimosh Sangma asked :

74. Will the Minister-in-charge of Education be pleased to state-

(a).

Whether Government has taken any steps to give relief to the children of local displaced parents in the border areas? 

(b).

Whether Government is considering to give relief to these children in the form of :

(i) Border relief Scholarships.

(ii) Book grants.

(iii) Border subsidy; and 

(iv) Other financial helps. 

Shri Darwin D. Pugh (Minister of State in-charge of Education) replied :

74.(a).

-A provision has been made in this year's Budget amounting to Rs.30,000 from Non-Plan Schemes for giving relief.

(b).

-The Scheme envisages the grant of Scholarships to deserving students in Border areas and for giving books, grants to needy students as well grants to deserving institutions in the Border areas. 

Government Schools in Garo Hills

Shri Nimosh Sangma asked :

75. Will the Minister-in-charge of Education be pleased to state-

(a).

How many Government High Schools and Middle Schools are there in Garo Hills?

(b).

Whether Government proposes to provincialise the following schools at an early date :

.

(i) The Tura Town High School. 

(ii) The Resubelpara Aided High School.

(iii) The Baghmara High School.

(iv) The Dalu High School?

Shri Darwin D. Pugh (Minister of State in-charge, of Education) replied :

75.(a).

- One Government Higher Secondary and M.P. School situated at Tura.

One Government High Schools for girls situated at  Tura. 

Thirteen Government M.E. Schools situated in different rural areas. 

     (b)

- There is no proposal to provincialise any of the High Schools mentioned. 

Deputy Commissioner of Jaintia Hills District.

Shri Humphrey Hadem asked :

76. Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state-

(a).

Whether it is a fact that the Deputy Commissioner of Jaintia Hills District is, at present, in-charge of the Police Administration in the District?

(b).

If so, what are the reasons?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

76.(a) &(b)  

-Yes. Pending posting a regular Police Officer of appropriate level. 

Shri Humphrey Hadem : Unstarred question No.76, Sir. When the officer will be posted?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister ) : It is under active consideration of the Government. 

Advertisement of posts by the Assistant I.G.P., Meghalaya 

Shri D.D. Lapang asked :

77. Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state-

(a).

Whether the Government is aware that some posts of Lower Division Assistants and  Typist were advertised by the Assistants I.G.P., Meghalaya of which the last date for receipt of applications was 25th March, 1972?

(b).

If the reply is in the affirmative, why these posts cannot be filled up those candidates recommended by the Selection Board?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

77.(a).

-Yes.

     (b)

-As a number of applications had been received in response to the advertisement, they had been forwarded to the Selection Board for recommending suitable candidates.

Shri D. Dethwelson Lapang (Nongpoh S.T.) : Mr. Speaker,  Sir, it is understood that the Selection Board had forwarded la list of candidates to the Personnel Department on 19th January 1272 whereas in the advertisement the last dare for receipt of applications was 25th March. May we know, Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether it is a fact that candidates forwarded by the Selection Board to the Personnel will be selected. 

Mr. Speaker : That is too long. Please make it a little bit short. 

Shri D. Dethwelson Lapang : Whether it is a fact that the Selection Board his already forwarded a list of selected candidates on 12th January 1972?

*Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I may kindly be allowed to explain the position. The police set-up that come over to Meghalaya after 21st January 1972 also came with the practice in Assam that each Department used to advertise for the posts and also to make appointments. But is far as Meghalaya is concerned, we have decided that the selection of the successful candidates for manning vacant posts under different Departments should be done through the Selection Board. So the Inspector General of Police advertised on the 8th of March for filling up these posts. But later on when it was brought to the notice of the Personnel Department we have pointed out to the Department that the appointments could be done through the Selection Board. But since the advertisement was already done without the prior knowledge of the Personnel Department and a number of applications already received through that advertisement we have asked the department to forward all the applications to the Selection Board and as such, the matter has got to be considered. 

Shri D.D. Lapang : Mr. Speaker, Sir, may we know the circumstances as to why the candidates selected for appointment in the office of the I.G.P. have not been appointed in spite of the fact that their names have been forwarded by the Selection Board to the Personnel Department?

*Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have already explained the position. You see, Sir, the practice in Assam is that each Department is allowed to advertise for vacant posts and each Department is authorised to make appointments for this type of service. So, without realising that there is a different procedure of this type of service. So, without realising that there is a different procedure in Meghalaya, the Police Department had advertised for the posts. When it was brought to the notice of the Personnel Department the Personnel Department instructed that no Department is authorised to make appointments and that it has got to be done through the Selection Board. But since the Department had already advertised for the posts on 8th March and had received a number of applications in response to the advertisement we have no alternative but to forward all the applications to the Selection Board. 

Shri D.D. Lapang : May we know whether the Selection Board has submitted a supplementary list to the Personnel Department besides the list of the 300 candidates forwarded on 12th January 1972.

Mr. Speaker : That is not connected. 

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : When the examination and interview are conducted by the Selection Board, if they are found fit and if they pass in the Examination, their names will be included in the list already prepared. 

Shri D.D. Lapang : Whether the Government is aware of the fact that some of the candidates who have been selected by the Selection Board have applied for the same posts and have had to pay application fees?

Mr. Speaker : I think the Hon'ble Chief Minister has to clarify the position as there is confusion in the reply. The Selection Board has forwarded a list of successful candidates and if the candidates will have to appear in the interview according to that advertisement by the I.G.P as, you said that the list will be included in the consolidated list, then there is confusion in that. But what I think is whether that examination will be conducted solely for the purpose of the appointments.  

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Now, Mr. Speaker,  Sir,. as has been pointed out by the hon. Member, Mr. Pohshna, we still have a number of candidates who have been declared to have passed. In fact, the advertisement was done by the I.G.P. for  filling up those posts and those candidates who have passed and who are still in the waiting list could have been appointed. Therefore, it would be reasonable for the Selection Board to compare their merits with those who are in the list and send their recommendations either from the original list or from the other list. 

Mr. Speaker : Yes, I think that is clear. So let us pass on to Unstarred Question No.78.

District Officer in Jaintia Hills

Shri Humphrey Hadem asked :

(a).

Whether it is a fact that no other District Officer, except that of the Deputy Commissioner, has been opened in the Jaintia Hills District since its inauguration?

(b).

If so, what are the reasons?

(c)

Whether it is a fact that no Subdivision Officer (Civil) has been posted uptil now in place of the previous one transferred to Shillong?

(d)

If so, why?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied.

78.(a).

-Yes.

     (b).

-The question of upgradation of the various posts in the Jaintia Hills District to those of District level posts is under consideration of Government, Pending final decision in the matter the various officers in the Jaintia Hills District, if they are not too junior have been authorised to correspond directly with the Head of Department.

(c)&(d)

-With the upgradation of the Jowai Subdivision to that of a District, the need for posting of an independent Sub divisional Officer (Civil) is no longer there. The posting of Sadar S.D.O., depends on the work load in the District. The question of strengthening the Deputy Commissioner establishment and Magistracy in Jaintia Hills District is under the consideration of Government. 

Shri H. Hadem : 78(b) Sir. Does it mean that they have been empowered as District Officers?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think we have had enough discussion on this subject. Of course, most of the Heads of the different Departments are not located in Jowai and we are examining each case on merit as to whether there is sufficient workload or not. Therefore, it is only a question of upgradation of the post. If there is one D.S.P. and if there is need that the full fledged Police Officer should be of the rank of either Additional S.P. or S.P. this question will be examined. So if the Government is satisfied and there is really need for upgrading the post, the officer will be upgraded and it will also be applicable to other Departments.

Shri H. Hadem : Mr. Speaker, Sir, again I would like to know whether the junior officers in Jaintia Hills have been authorised to correspond directly with the Heads of Department and my supplementary question is that : does it mean that they are temporarily empowered to Act as District Officers?

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) ; Yes, the officers have the necessary delegation of power to have direct correspondence but it is not a question of promotion. 

Prof. Martin N. Majaw : Mr. Speaker, Sir, in view of the categorical statement of the Chief Minister in reply to 78(a) that a District Office was opened may we know the date of the surgical operation?

Shri H. Hadem : Now the main question Sir. But there is a printing mistake. 

Mr. Speaker : Yes, there is a printing mistake. 

Shri H. Hadem : 76(c) Sir. Whether the Sadar S.D.O. has been posted?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Well the reply is very clear, it depends upon the workload of the District. 

Shri H. Hadem : Mr. Speaker, Sir, may we know who will try all the cases?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Well, cases will be tried both by the D.C. and the Assistant D.C.

Shri Maham Singh (Mawprem) : Whether the Assistant D.C. has been appointed in Jowai District?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Yes there is one Extra Assistant Commissioner and one Sub-Deputy Magistrate. 

Shri Maham Singh : Have they been empowered with the power of the Assistant D.C.?

Shri W.A.  Sangma (Chief Minister ) : Yes, judicial power is vested in these officers. 

Shri Maham Singh : Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether appointments of these officers are made according to the work-load or necessity?

Mr. Speaker : I think the work load and necessity are the same.

Shri Maham Singh :  I am saying this because the Minister-in- charge has been stressing on the work -load and whether it depends on the work load or necessity?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Unless there is work what is the use of appointing these officers. 

Mr. Speaker : Now let us pass on to unstarred question No.79.

Terms and Conditions of Service of borrowed Employees

Shri G. Mylliemngap asked :

79. Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state-

(a).

Whether the Government has finalised the terms and conditions of service of those employees ; who have been borrowed from the Assam Government and other Agencies?

(b).

If not, when Government propose to finalise?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

79.(a) & (b).

- Such staff are now treated as on deputation to the Government of Meghalaya. The question of permanently absorbing the staff borrowed from Government of Assam is under active consideration of the Government. 

Shri Upstar Kharbuli (Malki) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it a fact that pending finalisation of the terms and condition of services, can the junior staff from the Ministerial cadre be allowed to officiate in the higher posts except the leave vacancies? Let me give an example. In one department the Assistant Superintendent was there but he cannot officiate in the higher post pending finalisation of the terms and conditions. 

Mr. Speaker : Yes it is clear. 

*Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Well Mr. Speaker, Sir, as there are some technical Government employees of the Government of Assam, the question arises in promotion by allowing that particular Superintendent of that office to officiate in higher capacity and we have also taken into account some staff serving under the Government of Assam otherwise there will be repercussion since we have not been able to absorb these persons in our separate set up. Therefore, each and every individual case has to be examined from that point of view. 

Shri H. Hadem : Is there any time limit for finalisation?

*Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : It is a very difficult question to give a definite reply in that light. But I can inform the hon. Member that it is being processed and each and every department  has been asked to prepare a list of persons who would like to be absorbed in the Meghalaya set up.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Whether those who are on deputation get deputation allowances. 

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : No. 


Presentation of Petition.

Mr. Speaker : Let us pass on to item No.2. Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw to present a petition under Rule 111 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business of the Assembly. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : Mr. Speaker, Sir, a copy of the petition is on the Table of the House and a petition is on behalf of the retrenched personnel of the Relief and Rehabilitation Department seeking their demands : one is their arrears of salary from the month of March till the date when they were retrenched and secondly, re-absorption of all of them in suitable posts in the Government. 


Calling Attention 

Mr. Speaker : According to Rule 114, petition has been automatically referred to a Committee on petition. Let us pass on to item No.3. Shri Lewis Bareh to call the attention of the Minister-in-charge of P.W.D. (R.&B.) Rule 54 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business. 

*Shri Lewis Bareh : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to draw the attention of the Minister in- charge P.W.D. (R & B.) under Rule 54 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business of the Assembly relating to "Heavy land-slides in many parts of the Jowai-Badarpur Road for the last few days and thereby, some dislocation has been caused and most of the people of the nearby villages are facing acute hardship for no-availability of essential commodities". Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is due to heavy land- slide on the Jowai-Badarpur Road side there are some dislocation of some parts of the villages like the Umshang Doloi Syiemship, Sutnga, etc. where the people are facing great hardship due to non-availability of essential commodities. Therefore, Sir, these people are suffering very badly for want of these essential commodities which could not be supplied as a result of dislocation of that particular Jowai- Badarpur Road. I beg to draw the attention of the Hon'ble Minister -in-charge through you, Sir, to pay more attention to these villages which I have mentioned above and cares the grievances of the local people there. Thank you. 

Mr. Speaker : The Minister-in- charge of P.W.D. to give a reply?

*Shri W. A. Sangma (Minister- in-charge of P.W.D. ) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Jowai-Badarpur road is a part of the highway connecting Shillong, Jowai, Passi, Badarpur, and Agartala and has been declared as National Highway route No.44 by the Government of India, Ministry of Shipping and Transport (Roads Wing) vide their Notification No.3344, dated 25th July 1971. Therefore, the responsibility for its development and maintenance rests with the Government of India. It is understood that Government of India have entrusted the responsibility of maintenance and improvement of the portion of this National Highway from Jowai to Agartala to Border Road Development Organisation with effect from 1st August 1971 as their agent. 

        The portion of the road from Jowai Mile 41to Mile 108 falls within the territorial jurisdiction of Meghalaya but not under its administrative control. However, it has been gathered from the local officers of the Ministry of Transport, Government of India (Roads Wing) that a result of heavy slips between miles 86 to 106, that is 8 miles beyond Lumshnong to near about Ratacherra, the road has become impassable to vehicular traffic with effect from  26th June 1972. It understood that the Border Roads Organisation are clearing the slips with 3 Bull- dozer and labourers and it is expected, as per the information obtained from the local officers of the Government  of India, that the road will be clear for vehicular traffic within the next 10 days. Provided however, no further slips occur. 

        D.C. Jaintia Hills has been asked to render whatever assistance is possible to the people affected by the closure of the road, like opening fair price shops near the affected villages. 


DISCUSSION UNDER RULE 50.

Mr. Speaker : Let us pass on to Item No.4. In the absence of Shri Mylliemngap, I will allow any the seconders to raise a discussion under Rule 50 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business I will request either Shri D.D. Lapang or Prof. Majaw to raise to discussion.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am really grateful for allowing me as under the Rule it was not specific. 

Mr. Speaker : But the Seconders are allowed. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : Practically, there are a large number of people who are now afflicted by this new disease. In fact Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the adjoining States of west Bengal and Assam, we read almost every day, the persons afflicted by this new epidemic Cholera. It is accompanied with dizziness, high fever, vomiting, dysentery, server colics and all these tremendous diseases have caused death. Now, fortunately, I have taken up the mater with the Medical Department of the Health Services but in view of the facts that they are very short of staff they could not immediately attend to the problem. I have also earnestly requested the Minister of health because of the great crisis that has developed recently in those villages. He has proposed to send some other people from the unaffected areas to help solve the problem temporarily as we have driven the B.D.Os from development works temporarily as we did to the refugees from Bangladesh during the conflict. Now, also if the Medical Department could manage to send some of the staff from where is no epidemic, I think will save the lives of hundreds and hundreds of people. 

Mr. Speaker : Can you specify some of those areas?

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I can  immediately specify. One of course, is the Nongkrem area, your area Mr. Speaker, Sir. 

Mr. Speaker : But my area is also your area. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : But also in Sohryngkham, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the area from which Mr. Mylliemngap who is absent today and who has submitted notice for raising discussion.  Then in the Mawhati Constituency also. In the Mawhati Constituency that I have myself visited and seen those persons personally at least in each family afflicted by this disease. Then I come to the Raid Iapngar in the Syiemship of Khyrim, where large number of people were also extremely affected. Then the village of Thaddiengiaw. The villagers used to call this Thaddiengiaw though it is in the Raid. Then again coming to the other village in the Tyrso Raid adjoining Umtngang. 

Mr. Speaker : Is that Tyrso Village a Raid?

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : Actually Tyrso is part of the Iapngar Raid but Tyrso Raid is situated farther from Iapngar that it more or less alls within the Raid of Umtngang in the adjoining village. Almost the whole of the Tyrso Valley is afflicted by this. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the village of Mawhati about 1/3 of the population there have been badly afflicted. The mater was immediately reported to the D.C to send some medical help and also medicines in addition to some medicines and medical facilities derived from the Missionaries there. 

        We came down to the Thaiang Raid. A number of villages also like Umtyrkhang were afflicted and then also Sohjalei, Iamkhon etc., those villages also have been afflicted by this disease. Of course this epidemic is prevailing there also in the Nongkhlaw Region. But I think time will not permit me to give greater details and I hope the hon. Member from Nongkhlaw will add something later on. Now we come to Nongspung, then Umiong, Mawdon of the Nongstoin Constituency and also the Rambrai area and other areas on which information can be gathered from other member who will be speaking on the subject I am afraid lest the Government instead of tackling this problem right away will take considerable time by calling a big conference and some other reports to discuss about the problem. If that is not way, all the people might have been dead before any help comes. But whatever might happen, I would earnestly request the Government and thought the Ministers to take action immediately. Now, I will climb up to the Itpatung area bordering Mikir Hills. At present the trouble in the Itpatung villages is of the same origin which is the result of outspread of the cholera epidemic form those adjoining villages which I have already stated. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is high time now that we should earnestly request the Government to taker immediate action to see that something is done to save the lives of the suffering millions. 

*Shri Blooming Shallam (Jowai S.T. ) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, this type of disease also prevails in Jaintia Hills. Recently before this Session of the Assembly commences, people form different places especially, from Nartiang Ilaka have complained about its outbreak and reported that an epidemic form of disease had developed rapidly. There are some cases of death and also in my Constituency, of Wahiajer immediately we have written to the Sub-Divisional Medical Officer in Jowai to visit the places and to try his very best to help the people but because of shortage of staff, they cannot cope with the work. I don't know what is to be done in order to meet the requirement of the people there. The only way that we can meet the situation is by way of suggesting that more staff should be sent to enable them to cope with the work which is increasing day by day. 

*Shri Hoover Hynniewta (Nongkhlaw S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very grateful to my friend from Mawhati who has got a better claim to greatness then I do for having brought this matter before this august House. It is not proper for  me to repeat what he has said but I want only to clarify the fact that in my Constituency, large areas have been afflicted by this disease. I brought this fact to the repeated attention of the Director of Health Services and the Civil Surgeons and also the Sub-Divisional Medical Officer and in a number of cases they  have taken very speedy action for which I am grateful to them. But I notice also Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a tendency to delay but I cannot say this applies to each and every one. The tendency is their taking ill-hearted attitude of these  reports when they are brought about by the accredited representatives of the people. I do hope that interest and the attitude of the Director of Health Services will be adopted by all the staff under him. 

        Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will come to an area beyond the river Kwi called Bhoi area in my constituency which has been affected by this disease and some areas also on the other side of this river have been affected. In one village particularly the village of Kynrut, 13 deaths have been reported. In another village called Nongkrem my Nongkrem and not your Nongkrem Mr. Speaker, Sir, (laughter) 

Mr. Speaker : My Nongkrem is also your Nongkrem. 

Shri Hoover Hynniewta : In my constituency Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the village of Nongkrem, I was told that all boys under the age of 2 have been affected, and if the report is true, all but two died as a result of the disease. So I think Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Medical Department should  take a very serious notice of this disease. The cause must be found out, the disease may be diagnosed, preventive measure also should be speedily adopted. Once again before I resume may seat Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would with all emphasis at my command their ears, they mush take speedy action. They must not, as my friend more gratifyingly described, pass one file from one officer to the other or from one officer to this or that. By trying to pin blame of this or that medical officer. I do not know how we can solve this problem. 

*Shri Francis K. Mawlot (Nongstoin S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, the emergence of the new disease is prevailing in Shillong also. But as have been already pointed out by the  two hon. Members, the disease affects the interior areas most. In my constituency the villages of Nowdong, Synia, Nongspung and Nongdiedoh are situated in the border of Kamrup district. So far these villages have been left alone without medical assistance from the Government or anybody else. 

        Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have got a report that during these few days this disease has affected these areas very badly and I think if some of the hon. Members will go to those areas they will see how neglected these villages are. The people are ignorant, they do not know even to take care of themselves nor do they know to take care of patients. If anyone falls sick they will leave him alone at home while they are going to the fields. The people in these villages are living without medical assistance and if an epidemic breaks our in one village it will spread to the entire area. This thing happens not only in my constituency. Mr. Speaker, Sir, but also in the Lyngngam area. I have got information that labourers working under Nongstoin- Nongshram  road have died due to this disease especially places called Nongdaju and Nongshram. The people have not got good during water. They are drinking water from the river. So Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think due to this bad drinking water, people are mostly affected by disease. So I would like to request the department concerned to take up immediate steps for preventing this new disease from spreading. 

*Shri D. Dethwelson Lapang (Nongpoh S.T. ) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to participate in this discussion regarding the seriousness of the new disease that breaks our in our areas. Besides there areas which have already been mentioned by the hon. Members, I would like to inform the Government that the disease has spread out in my constituency also. One village called Umtasor with a population 4,000 people has been badly affected by this disease. We would be surprised to know that there are some families which have closed down their houses for bringing the family members to Shillong for getting medical treatment. More than 30 persons are admitted in different hospitals in Shillong. I have also brought these cases to the notice of the Medical Department and of course I would like to express my gratitude to them for paying immediate attention to them. But even then Sir, a set- back still still stands in the way. The Medical Department does not have sufficient staff to cope with the situation, and as a result, many sick people are left alone without medical care. One of our officers in the Medical Department made a remark "you have created a havoc in the Department". This remark shows that very fact of insufficiency of staff in the Department to cope with the task. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have seen in the map all the affected areas which my colleague from Nongstoin has talked about and it is a matter of much regret. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would request the Government to look into the matter with all seriousness with a view to keep this disease under check and prevent it form spreading from one village to another village. 

*Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh (Umroi S.T) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree with the hon. Member that most of these villages are affected by this disease in and around Bhoi area where a 13-bedded hospital had been sanctioned by the then Government of Assam. I would request the Government of Meghalaya to take immediate steps for checking this disease in near future. So also, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would request the Government to make investigation about this disease in different villages where it is possible in the near future so that we can know about the disease. At the same time I would request the  Government to arrange, water supply to those affected areas. With these few words  I resume my seat. 

Shri Manindra Rava (Tikrikilla) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very glad to join, in this discussion about this new type of disease. It is not only in epidemic form in Khasi Hills but I have found in many parts of Garo Hills also I would like to draw the attention......

Mr. Speaker : So far as  Garo Hills is concerned, it does not come under-the purview of this particular notice that I have received. So far as Garo Hills is concerned you can have a talk with the Minister in-charge Health at the office and not here. It does not come in this context. 

*Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh (Pariong S.T.) : While taking part in discussion on this matter before the House I will stress only on one point. That the new disease has been affecting Khasi Hills which we have never experienced in our life. As hon. Member has explained it is true that this cholera type of disease may be called by some other and the new term is cholera now-a day. At the same time Sir, there is no wonder that there are symptoms of different kinds of disease because in Nongkrem and other areas while the hon. Members have already sanctioned this kind of disease is new in these places. Now, Sir, over and above, the new disease like cholera and some other new type of disease are prevalent in the district. I would like to draw the attention of the Government and the Department through you, Sir, that to day there is cholera type of disease affecting the people in the some of the areas. When affected by this disease they the people will take only cholera medicin4e and that usually happened when we used to go to hospitals for taking some help. There are instances Sir, as the hon. Member has stated to show how these people have been deprived of proper medical treatment. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : I suggest Mr. Speaker, Sir, that all doctors, nurses, pharmacists, ward boys, etc., of the Family Planning Department sent.

Shri Humphrey Hadem : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I like to point out that shortage of.

Mr. Speaker : That point has already been discussed. Not let us hear from the Minister-in-charge.

*Shri Humphrey Hadem : I am not going to that point of doctors, etc. I like to point out one difficulty, that is shortage of vehicle. I would request that the Government will place some vehicles at the disposal to of the Medical Department so that it can attended immediately and positively to the affected areas. With these few words I resume my seat.

*Shri Maham Singh (Mawprem) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, in view of the fact that Medical Department is short of staff and actually called upon to make a suggestion as to how best this problem can be tackled. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say that it is not only the medical relief or the medical aid that is to be given to these affected villages but because we find that it is not only in Khasi Hills that this disease is prevalent but also in Jaintia Hills and may be in Garo Hills also. I think that other Departments should also come to the aid of the Medical Department, Departments like the Agriculture, Family planning. This disease is a new disease. I was shocked to learn in Civil Hospital 21 people from Nongkrem came severely suffering from this and many of them died, there in that village. Now Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are to find out the cause. It may be also due the widespread use of the insecticides and pesticides for agricultural purpose. Now if this is the reason, then that village had to be taught the use of insecticides and pesticides in a proper manner. So I wish to make only a suggestion that  all the Department also should come to the aid of the Medical department in this respect. 

*Shri Besterson Kharkongor (Dienglieng S.T.) : I would just point out that in one of the areas of my constituencies, this disease is also there. I went there and I met the Medical Officer and I requested him to give medical aid but he replied that medicines are out of stock and another thing he told me that one doctor was requested to see and to take step. So I request the Government to see to this and take effective steps immediately and within a few days. I went to Sohryngkham also and I have seen some families that have been affected by this disease, and one family with 4 or 5 children was affected but no remedy has been given. So I request the Government to see and take immediate steps in this connection.

*Shri P.R. Kyndiah : Mr. Speaker, Sir, it appears, as has been spoken by the Members of this august house that there exists this peculiar disease. It is very difficult to say whether it is dysentry or cholera, but whatever it is, it is a fatal disease. I have been told about the incidence of this disease, it is there in Shillong itself. Somehow Shillong because we have proper publicity and because of the fact that medical remedy is very prompt, but even then besides all that, we know of many cases of this peculiar disease. The Minister will have to see to the facts of the case but I feel that in view of the large scale incidence of this disease it is necessary that the Department should also try to get the help of  other paramedical institutions, as for instance, we have got, during the last emergency, during the influx of the refugees, we have been able to channelise the institutions like hospitals in Shillong and another at Tura to come together and to make a joint concerted effort with a view to tackle this problem. And we have also other organisations like Red Cross, Nazareth Hospital and other institutions like Ram Krishna Mission. We can also take the help of these institutions if the disease could not be put down by the Department alone. So I would suggest that in view of the spread of this disease, we can call upon the assistance of these various organisations to tackle this problem.

*Shri Manindra Rava (Tikrikilla): Mr. Speaker, Sir, please allow me to say a few words. My point was that we have found out, when the Civil Surgeon, Tura sent some Medical Officers, and after investigation they diagnosed that it is only diarrhoea. Perhaps it is diarrhoea. It is a new type of disease.

Mr. Speaker : May be an old type. We are not experts in medical science but we are being seized of this disease from which our people are suffering.

Shri Manindra Rava : Yes Sir. I know, because I was suffering from  this disease (loud laughter) and I have been to the State Dispensary, but there is no medicine. That is why, I have taken some homoeopathic medicine (loud laughter) and these are the difficulties. But I am here to express that difficulty and perhaps 5 or 6 people also died in my area.

Mr. Speaker : May I request the Minister, Health to reply ?

*Shri S. K. Marak (Minister of Health) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, many of the hon. Members have expressed concern over this strange disease that has been affecting the people in many parts, of the State, and through you, Sir, I would like to inform the hon. Members of the action taken by the Department in this respect. But at this moment, I am getting information from the various hon. Members and reports from the Block Development Officers and other leaders, and I do not know whatever action taken has covered the various areas. Let me apprise the House of action taken so far by the Health Department.

Prof M.N. Majaw (Mawhati S T) - Has the Chief Minister also been affected by it?

Shri W. A Sangma (Chief Minister) - By the hon. Member stops talking, it would affect his throat also.

Shri Sanford K. Marak (Minister of Health) - Here is the report from the Health Department on the action taken so far as this disease is concerned.

        1. On 21st April, 1972, the Sirdar of Nohron submitted a report to the civil  Surgeon about the incidence of headache, malaria fever dry cough and dysentery at Nohron within Khyrim  Syiemship of Khasi Hills. 

         The Sanitary Inspector, who was deputed by the S.D.M. and H.O., Khasi Hills, Shillong to proceed to the place of occurrence reported that he visited about 29 houses of the people suffering from influenza cough and fever with some complications-distributed medicine to more then 305 people in Nohron. He said that there was no report of any epidemic form of disease in the neighbouring villages of Nongryngkoh and Syntung. 

         2. On 25th April, 1972., Shri D. Lyngdoh, M.L.A. wrote to the Civil Surgeon that the people of Umpowin village of Bhoi Area were affected by smallpox. The Civil Surgeon immediately directed the Assistant Surgeon I in-charge of Public Health Duty to proceed to the place of occurrence with Public Health Staff from Naya Bunglow P.H.C. The A.S.I. in charge of P.H. Duty visited the village on 26th April, 1972, and found that there were no people suffering from any sort of epidemic disease and informed that a few persons were suffering from common ailments like cough, influenza and skin diseases but were reluctant to take medicine. 

        3. On 8th May, 1972, the Sirdar of Sohryngkham reported to the S.D.M. and H.O., Khasi Hills, Shillong about the incidence of wasting disease, which appeared to be contagious and he stated that the people had died from this disease. 

        The S.D.M. and H.O. directed the A.S.I, Mawryngkneng to proceed to the place of occurrence. He went to the place of occurrence and contacted the Secretary of the village who took him to the houses where there were patients suspected of the disease. He found four of them to be suspected of having been infected with T.B. He advised them to take further medical treatment either from the Mawryngkneng dispensary or from the Civil Hospital at Shillong. 

        4. On 25th May. 1972, the Syiem of Mylliem reported to the Civil Surgeon about the incidence of smallpox in Shiliangum Area. The C.S. deputed vaccinator to go to the place of occurrence with sufficient medicines for vaccination and inoculation. 

        On 3rd June, 1972, the B.D.O., Mairang reported about the incidences of vomiting and dysentery in Warmassaw village. The Civil Surgeon, directed the Public Health staff from Nongpoh to proceed the place of occurrence to render medical aid and to take necessary preventive measures. 

        On 10th June, 1972, three persons of Umtasor village reported to the Civil Surgeon, through the M.L.A. of Nongpoh constituency about the incidence of diarrhoea, dysentery and vomiting in the village. The conduct investigation immediately.

        On 11th June, 1972, inoculation against cholera was administered to the people. 

        Again on 23rd June, 1972, the P.H. staff paid another visit to the place of occurrence. They stayed 2 days and three nights and give treatment to 124 patients at Umtasor and 11 at Eitnar affected with acute Bacillary dysentry with bleeding. They were found to be responding to the treatment. On the day of their arrival they were told that 3 people had died from the disease. The cause of the disease was suspected to be from the contamination of the drinking water. 

        On 29th June, 1972, the Doctor -in-charge of P.H. Duty, Shillong, again visited the place of occurrence and found only 4 cases suffering from acute bacillary dysentry. He found that the disease had subsided and left the Sanitary Inspector and Health Assistant of Naya Bangalow in the village with all necessary drugs and also for mass inoculation. 

        The Doctor-in- charge of P.H. Duty, Shillong, observed that from his examination of the patients at Umtasor he found that the disease started with the rise of temperature followed by passage of bleeding and mucus with stool. There was nothing peculiar about the disease. It was a clear case of acute bacillary dysentery. He was of the view that the cause of the disease was that people used the stream for their drinking water and during the rains this stream was contaminated by human feaces washed down from the surrounding hill-sides. 

        The M.L.A. of Mylliem Constituency also reported in the beginning of June about incidence of small pox in the Village of Umsaw and other neighbouring areas of Mylliem. The Sanitary Inspector was immediately depute to the areas and vaccination was administered to the people. 

        There were reports also at the end of May about incidence of dysentery in Nongkrem village. The A.S.I. in charge of Mawryngkneng visited the village and found that there were cases of diarrhoea which he treated. 

        Previous to the visit of the A.S.I., the Sanitary Inspector also had been to the village and distributed medicine to more then 300 persons suffering from Bronchitis, diarrhoea and dysentery. He also administered antic-cholera inoculation. 

        The Sirdar of Mawryngkneng also submitted a report on 1st July 1972, to the Civil Surgeon about the incidence of dysentery land diarrhoea in the village fearing that there might be cholera cases also. His report was recommended by M.L.A. of Sohryngkham Constituency. 

        The Civil  Surgeon immediately informed the Medical Officer in-charge Mawryngkneng State Dispensary to take necessary action. The M.O. in charge Mawryngkneng State Dispensary immediately requisitioned the medicines required for the purpose. These were duly supplied from the officer of the Civil Surgeon. 

        It may be concluded from the above that there had been no occurrence or incidence of a new type of disease in an epidemic form in some parts of Khasi Hills. 

        Promotion had been taken on receipt of report of the occurrence of diseases and it had been found that they were not of new type.

        Sir. Many hon. Members have expressed concern over this new type of disease. As all of you know, Sir, that I am not a student of medical science, I know a very little about this disease. It appears that this new type of disease which ahs come in an epidemic form is something like bacillary dysentry according to medical examination. I do not know what is bacillary dysentery. Some of the hon. Members have suggested that when this disease spreads in any particular area in an epidemic form, the doctors form unaffected areas should rush there. I am very glad to inform the House that recently we have appointed 16/17 doctors on contract basis and the will report for duty very soon. If necessary, as suggested by the hon. Members, the doctors from the unaffected area also will be sent to the epidemic areas for medical attendance and if possible the staff of the Family Planning Department also may be sent. 

        Mr. Speaker, Sir, during the Budget discussion, the Chief Minister has expressed the pledge that we would have to fight a major fight and that is against disease. So it is evident that it is one of the major policies of the State Government to fight the disease and in keeping with this policy we have appointed 16/17 new doctors. I hope this will give an incentive to cope with this problem. In this connection, I would also request the hon. Members that whenever they get any information that disease such as cholera, smallpox etc have attacked any particular area in an epidemic form, they should kindly contact me over telephone. Some hon. Members have pointed out that files move slowly form the Head of the Directorate down to the doctors when the necessity demands prompt action. So I would request the hon. Members to contact me over telephone whenever such situation arises. In this regard I would like to remind the hon. Members that they should not consider us, the Ministers, as officers. 

( A voice- welcome, welcome )

        Thereby I do not mean to say that our officers and staff would not response to their requests. One of the hon. Members has admitted, that our staff and officers have been giving prompt response to their requests. But for the speedy action I would request the hon. Members to contact me over telephone as soon as they receive such information and if there is no telephone connection, they may send telegram to me. 

        Regarding this present disease, it is a new type of disease. I do not know the real cause of this disease. The Medical Department will be in a position to  determine the cause of this disease and they will be able to say whether it is a new or old type or it is a cross-breed. 

        Mr. Speaker, Sir, with these few words, I would like to assure the hon. Members that the case will be examined for the benefit of people and the medical science.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh (Mawkyrwat S.T.)  : Mr. Speaker, Sir, one more clarification. There is an apprehension that there may be contamination of the insecticides. This may also be examined. 

Mr. Speaker : The process of culturing water and all the blood, stools and what not will be done by the Department concerned. That he has already clarified. Let us come now to item 5. Prof. Majaw to move the special motion under Rule 103A.


Points of Order.

*Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister for Parliamentary Affairs) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, before we proceed, I may raise a point of order of may raise objection to this item. This Rule 103A is a very special rule and the heading is also "Special Motion". Such a motion will get a precedence over all other motions under Rule 131 I would submit, Sir, that the subject matter of this motion and the fact of the subject-matter do not warrant a motion under Rule 103A. For one thing the motion reads thus "The Assembly do now take into consideration the setting up of the Umkhen- Umiam Dam by the Assam State Electricity Board, in the Tyrso Valley of the Khyriem Syiemship or in the adjoining areas of the Khasi Hills District". I would dispute the very fact itself that there is no question of the setting up of the Umkhen- Umiaw Dam. The motion, as placed here, is a fact that there is a setting up of the Umkhen-Umiam Dam. A part from that, there is no question of a recent occurrence that is essential for attraction of this rule 103A. Preliminary investigations are the routine duties of the Electricity Board for all over the area. These preliminary investigations are going on all over the places for any source of power. They have been going on for months and years. At this stage, we know for a fact that only preliminary investigations have been going on there. There is no matter of recent occurrence. Therefore, it would not attract Rule 130A-to precede all other motions under Rule 131. Another matter also I may draw the attention of the Members to the fact that it is not of urgent public importance -another essential ingredient to attract Rule 103A- because as I have already stated, only the preliminary investigations have been going on and the stage is now only whether this Government will permit a detailed investigation. 

Prof. M.N. Majaw : On a point of order. 

Mr. Speaker : Let me first dispose of one point of order. 

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister for Parliamentary Affairs) : It is for a fact that I may inform the House that at this stage, there is only a request request from the Electricity Board to this Government for permission to carry on investigation. Therefore, there is no question of urgent public importance here. The Government will have the time to consider the request for permission. Again even after investigation, before the scheme is prepared according to the Electricity Law, you will find that the Government can again examine and see whether it will be possible to agree to the scheme. So we the House will have another, Sir, there is now urgent public importance. There has been no recent occurrence and I would admit that it may be a matter of general public importance for which the appropriate rule will be 131(1). The motion for the matter of general public interest can be discussed only with the consent of the Speaker. So there is no specialty here as to precede all other motions and also that the Speaker may fix the special time and date for discussion of this motion which is ordinary and of general public importance without any recent occurrence and without any urgent public importance - no urgency at all. I may submit, Sir, that the motion is out of order. 

*Prof. M.N. Majaw : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I submit that the motion is quite in order as a special motion. In the first place, under Rule 130A at P.71 of Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business in Assam Legislative Assembly, it categorically states that the Speaker shall fix the time and date for discussion of such a motion and I submit , Mr. Speaker, Sir, that you have in your wisdom accepted the special motion. You have also fixed the time and you have also fixed the date for the discussion of such a special motion which forms part of the agenda, printed and circulated to us and on that primary consideration alone, I submit Mr. Speaker, Sir, once it forms part of the business of the day, I do not think it is fitting for a member of the House to call in question your wisdom in having allowed it to form part of the agenda. Next, Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me reply to this statement. The Hon'ble  Minister says it is not a fact that the setting up of the Umkhen-Umiam Dam cannot be considered. Then I do not know what can be considered. Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the Minister Incharge of Electricity, Mines, Power and Industries, himself placed on the Table of the house this very document, the Assam State Electricity Board annual financial statement for the year 1972-73 and at page 6 of this very statement, it is clearly stated on the programme for 1972-73. Namely, the title on top "Physical and financial achievement at the end of 1971-72 and programme for 1972-73. Then there are two projects - the lower Umiam-Umkhen project capacity 310 M.W. three stages - cost Rs.52 crores. If this is not a fact, it is that this book is not a fact and the Minister laying of his statement on the Table of the House is not a fact. The Hon'ble Minister also had occasion to say that this incident is not for recent occurrence. In making that statement, he stated that this matter has been going on for a long time. This also I dispute Mr. Speaker Sir. The matter because urgent and because immediate that in the Assam Tribune - the daily known in this State also - of 12th May, 1972 on the front page it was published under the heading "Umiam-Umkhen Project approved by the Planning Commission". It gives out details how this Umiam-Umkhen Project will be set up, where the dam will be set up, and the details and the paraphernalia in connection with this. I would not use the word dam in an abusive sense, but where this dam is to be set up. Now after having brought this out the people of the Tyrso Valley, the Tyrso Valley is a very vast sprawling  like T. Shape area, held a huge durbar on the 20th May and decided to rather die, sacrifice their lives rather than allow the Assam State Electricity Board to flood their areas. Now, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the 20th May may still be referred as an old occurrence, but the occurrence is going on every day. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the unbearable presence, I repeat the unbearable presence of the Surveyors, sprawling crawling and rolling  all over the pleasant hills in this beautiful Valley with their instruments and tools, pots and pans and their chowkidar, and told the people and if you do not agree, we will bring the Military. These are the words they used. If the Hon'ble Minister for Parliamentary Affairs still think that it is not of recent occurrence, immediate occurrence, these very particular people of the 14 villages who have today on this very second I am speaking have sent their representatives to the gates of this Assembly to protest against the presence of the Surveyors in the Tyrso Valley, I do not know what further example of occurrence and what type of recent occurrence he expects.

        The Mr. Speaker, Sir, he has also spoken of the surveyors, the fact that the Government is considering the permission and asked for detailed investigations that I do not know when it will take place. But when they were still asking for permission I do not know why they have not waited for it. Although the Minister made a statement on the 22nd May in reply to my calling attention that the matter is under consideration of the Government regarding asking for detailed investigations, the surveyors have already taken the permission themselves All mighty they are that they have already visited the place. So I think, Mr. Speaker, it is pointless for the Minister to refer to the permission being asked and I submit that it is fact, a fact of the motion that you have accepted it Mr. Speaker, Sir. You have incorporated it in the schedule business of the day, it is of most recent occurrence and, therefore, special motion is specially in order.

*Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Power) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member from Mawhati had read from the annual financial statement of the State Electricity Board as if the reading of the statement means the setting up of the Dam. But he forgot to read some very important words at page 6 of the annual financial statement. I shall read this part for the benefit of the House. regarding this particular matter :

        "The Board has taken up investigation of few major Hydel Projects which can be taken up only with the approval of the Central Water and Power Commission and the State Government. The main project are :-

        (1) Lower Umiam-Umkhen Project.
        (2) Kopily Project."

        Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is no question of setting up a project as the Minister in charge, Parliamentary Affairs, said when he raised the point of order, that there is no question of taking up the project. It is under consideration of the State Government as earlier informed - whether the State Government will give its approval to taking up investigation.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- In reply to that, Mr. Speaker, Sir, we do not know anything about the Central Water and Power Commission but the Planning Commission has sanctioned the money according to the report we have before us and at any rate, Sir, there is a project.

Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Power) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Planning Commission has not sanctioned this project. This is a wrong statement. The Commission has approved of this in the preliminary plan for investigation but it has not sanctioned the project. It is first Water and Power Commission, then a scheme is to be prepared. When the scheme is to be prepared then only the State Government is to be consulted first. Then only the Planning Commission will approve of the project if the State Government and the Central Water and Power Commission approve.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, my argument gravities around one point-whether it is a fact, whether it is a fact. It is a fact that the surveyor's are there in the valley and survey work actually taken up for the setting up of this project and later the project will included also a dam.

*Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I must really express my deep sense of appreciation for your patience to hear first of all the Minister raised a point of order and the hon. Member from Mawhati who opposed that point of order. Sir, a point of order is aimed to challenge the validity of any question that is sought to be raised before the House and decision of the Speaker on that question of validity or otherwise is final. But on this matter, Mr. Speaker, Sir, you have already given your decision and I consider it a matter of great regret that the Minister in charge Parliamentary Affair, should have reason to challenge the validity of yours ruling.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Parliamentary Affairs) :- I do not agree to that.

Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- No matter can be included in the agenda of the House except with your permission and you in all your wisdom have allowed this matter to be brought before the House. I would not like to go into the merits of this question as to whether you have decided correctly or wrongly because I know. Sir, if I am not happy with your ruling, if I question the validity of your ruling the only course left to me as the Member in this House is to move a motion for your removal from the Chair.

Mr. Speaker :- Correct. 

Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- As soon as it is not a motion for your removal from that Chair, no Member, however important he may be can challenge the correctness of your decision. Sir, I will draw the attention of the House to Rule 50- "Discussion on a matter of urgent public importance for short duration - "Any member desirous of raising discussion on a matter of urgent public importance may give notice in writing to the Secretary specifying clearly and precisely the matter to be raised :

        Provided that the notice shall be accompanied by an explanatory note stating the reasons for raising discussion on the matter in question."

        So, Sir,.........

Mr. Speaker : This motion is under Rule 130A and not under Rule 50.

Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- I agree, Sir. Rule 130 does not mention the procedure as to how a Member should raise this motion, Sir, if you feel that you have been sufficiently armed to give your ruling.

Mr. Speaker : No, no. You go on. 

Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- I submit myself to your discretion, Sir. Rule 130(A) does not lay down the procedure as to how a member should bring this motion to the attention of the Speaker. So, I am referring to Rule 50 and Rule 51. Rule 51 says that the Speaker will fix a date. It is a long rule, Sir, for the consideration of a motion "in consultation with the Leader of the House". So I do not know whether you have consulted him Sir, I do not know that the matter should be brought before the House. But Sir, I will draw your attention to Rule 300 dealing with points of Order and in Sub-rule (6) Cl. (b) it says that "a Member shall not raise a point of order - when a question on any motion is being put to the House". This has been put to the House for adopting the motion or for rejection. Therefore, Sir, the point of order does not arise at this stage or after this and only a motion of no confidence against the Speaker and you have allowed and I myself admit that it is not in keeping with parliamentary practice that we should challenge the validity of the Speaker's decision in the manner that the Minister has sought to do. 

*Shri B.B. Lyngdoh, (Minister for Parliamentary Affairs) : May I have a word, Sir, at least to explain the charge that I had meant House is subject to objection. So with that spirit the list of business has been placed in the House. On any motion Sir, any Member may raise objection or may raise a point of order. There is no question, there is no intention to challenge the ruling of the Speaker in this or that in the list of business before it is moved. Sir, the charge is uncalled for that I meant to challenge the ruling of the Speaker. 

Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- Sir, I do not think that the Minister has any intention to challenge your ruling if I can read his intention aright. But the effect of his raising a point of order amounts to a challenge. 


RULING BY THE SPEAKER 

Mr. Speaker :- I do not know in what spirit I will take it but if I am to take in a spirit as pointed out by the hon. Member, from Nongkhlaw, then I may go out and hand over to the deputy Speaker so that he will give a ruling. But if I am to take in a spirit of constructive approach and to admit that nobody is really fully armed with the knowledge of the rules then, of course, I will give my ruling. A Speaker of any Legislative Assembly may give a wrong ruling or a right ruling, a wrong decision or a right decision. That ruling or decision must be respected and it must be respected until such time that the Speaker will correct his own mistake that he made a wrong decision or gave a wrong ruling; and, in so far as the present case is concerned, the Minister for Parliamentary Affairs has pointed out that this motion should have precedent to over all other motions. That is wrong. It will get precedence only over the motions  which will come under Rule 131 ; not over any other motions and to say that it is not of urgent public importance or a matter of recent occurrence is also wrong. The statement made by the Minister on the 22nd June is itself of recent occurrence. This laying of the Annual Financial Statement for the year 1972-73 of the Electricity Board, on the 4th of this month, is itself a matter of recent occurrence. Thirdly, although I have empowered by this rule to fix the time and date for discussion of such a motion I did not decide of its inclusion without having private consultation with the Minister concerned. I do not expect that the point of order should come form the Minister on the floor of the House because it is considered always as a confrontation between the Government and the Speaker. This is a kind of convention that has been well established in all Legislative Assemblies. If the Minister finds that there is something wrong, he should have consulted the Speaker at the time when this was to be fixed. So I rule out the point of order. Now, I will call upon Prof. Majaw to move.

(Applause)


SPECIAL MOTION 

*Prof. Martin N. Majaw : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to move the following special motion under Rule 130(A) of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business of the Assembly. This Assembly do now take up the matter of setting up of the Umkhen- Umiam Dam by the Assam State Electricity Board in the Tyrso Valley of the Khyrim Syiemship or in other adjoining areas of the Khasi Hills District. 

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. Now you can initiate a discussion. 

(The Deputy Speaker in the Chair )

*Prof. Martin N. Majaw : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, after the abortive attempt by some members of the Ruling Party to even prevent discussion on this subject, it must be stated very clearly how I am left with a very serious doubt as to the bonafide of this Government in this matter if they try to prevent even a discussion on this subject- matter. I may put if hypothetically, perhaps afterwards it may enter into collusion with the Assam State Electricity Board to deprive all our people of their paddy fields. Even to discuss on this matter in this House, I as a representative of the people of that area, elected by them, am to be throttled and choked in moving this Motion, I take it that this Government does not have a clean and sincere intention in this matter. Otherwise what will affect them, is it to lose, to suffer in allowing us to speak. We may keep on debating in any subject and nothing is lost in it and having done so, we are grateful to the Speaker, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for having vindicated the cause of this House. All the people who are now connected with this particular subject, i.e., the Umkhen - Umiam Dam are deprived of their rights. I would first of all like to shed some lights on the archives of the Government as the exact land, the geography, the topography of this place at Tyrso Valley which is a vast big sprawling area covering 18,000 acres of mostly paddy fields. It can be the granary of the North -east if agricultural methods are applied, if irrigation schemes are undertaken. It falls under the Khyrim Syiemship although it is called Tyrso ; it is used by people from other Rajs not only from Tyrso itself. You may compare the central part of this Chamber to the Tyrso Proper having two large arms going out of either side. Herein you will find the Umiam river starting with Umshaw, Umlaiteng coming to Umlaithaw in Mikir Hills and Patung and those villages from Umsohmatan to Tyrso and within this Tyrso itself. There is the Umtngam on the other side of the river Umiam then you have got the Sohphoh, Umlashong, Umlatara which come over to the valley down to a place called 'Shrem' where there  is a vast area of about 18,000 feet of waterfalls and on the eastern side we have Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Mikir Hills where there is a little river called Umulet passing through Mawlanai. We have Umkhen river and then the Umiam river and its branch being called "The Umkhen- Umiam Confluence Project' the combination of the two rivers and in order to provide a large volume of water, we have a greater falls at Shrem dropping at 18,000 feet where there will be real impact of turbines to produce electricity. Infact the description given in the ...............17 is very correct to send out a local special representative from Shillong to the power house that would be located about 12 miles from  Tyrso area and it would be not further down Jagiroad. It is a narrow drop of 18,000 feet of water and for exploitation of this national advantage, it would make this Project the cheapest in Assam and one of the cheapest in India. It is quite clear Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that the intention is to block the river Umiam at Shrem to utilise the huge fall of water, a combination, of the river Umkhen- Umiam at Shrem in order to produce electricity. But Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you block the river Umiam at Shrem, the entire area will be flooded with water and it will stretch right up to Mikir Hills towards Umlaiteng, Umshyiap. On the 22nd June 1972, we had the occasion to listen to the Minister- incharge when he made a statement we had in reply to a Calling Attention Motion where he said that the Assam State Electricity Board originally dammed the whole place but because of the legitimate grievances of the people, it was decided that no land in the Tyrso area would be submerged and then later on, the Minister's statement speaks of 4 sq. miles of the cultivable land being submerged in Khasi Hills, 5 sq. miles in Jaintia Hills or Mikir Hills and another 3 sq. miles. Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, since all this area is to be blocked and water accumulated there to the extent of 4 sq. miles by the natural laws of gravity, by the laws of mechanics and by all the laws known to Euclid, the water must flow down to Tyrso, a small project and later on link up with the big project here and also extension of the Tyrso valley flows to the valley of Thadrang, Khyndewsaw, Mawlasni which is the same level and few water power will be accumulated there, you cannot possibly build such a huge dam across Mikir Hills to Raj Mawdwar to be blocked by that water. This is too immense, far too immense and will be a danger to the Hills from the water that is coming here. I therefore, earnestly request the Minister to go himself once to that area and study the matter carefully and look at it thoroughly. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister has said that the Assam State Electricity Board was apprehensive lest there would be shortage of electricity later on in order to prepare for the future consumption. Now they remind me of a Mithai Walla who makes large quantities of Mithai but sell only a handful of them and still he is having huge quantity for sale and he says, well, next time I will have more customers so let me start making more mithai, but even today he cannot sell his mithai in large quantities and he is still producing more and more mithai for the marginal customers and he thinks to go to many other areas later in 1984-85 according to his project. So Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is a later in 1984-85 according to his project. So Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is a policy of wastage. There is no urgent need to produce more electricity when we do not have more industries. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, at page four, the shortfall in anticipated revenue in the original estimate, 1971-72 is due to non materialisation on expected loans. Non-materialisation on expected loans. Non - materialisation on expected loans that are expected by the customers to eat mithai. They did not materialise. There is a huge accumulation of tools and materials for the next project in addition to the one already completed. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am really surprised to see that there are sufficient numbers of poles wires on the ground and why you will be able to really consider electrification in the rural areas and in other areas to use electricity that is now being produced from Barapani. Here we have many wild elephants roaming about here and there in the Tyrso Valley destroying all the paddy  fields in this area. What in heavens name these wild elephants, Mr. Deputy Speaker, could trample down the whole Tyrso Valley in the Khyrim Syiemship, destroying everything and beyond description. What in heaven's name Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the way towards my Constituency, one will see Bulldozers destroying cultivated lands and roads in that area. What is this? We may ask the advice of the Leaders of the House. We can really say that even today if you arrange some sort of transports because we, the opposition party, were very poor, we can take you to those places in Khasi Hills where you can find a good site for the Dam. You cannot take the place already occupied by the people. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we know that in Khasi Hills there are very few paddy lands but here, our glorious Government which is quite prepared. I don't know whether the Government or the A.S.E.B. which is ready to take over the paddy fields and whether there will be any compensation or not. Heaven knows. Of course, there may be such compensation at the rate of Rs.4,000 or Rs. 5,000 to the farmers but their paddy cultivation will be utilised for power generation. 

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Revenue) : But we have not committed any agreement that we have agreed to hand over any land. As a Minister-in- charge of Revenue, I have not got even a slip of paper to show that we have handed over this land. 

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna : May we know Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if the Minister- in- charge of Agriculture does not want to part with the paddy field?

Prof. Martin N. Majaw : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is utter confusion on the part of the Government. On the other hand, the Minister-in- charge of Agriculture has said that they have not decided to hand over this area'. On the other hand, the surveyors of the Government are working in the area, measuring, roaming around, organising and all that. What is this Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, they have not taken the place?

(Interruption)

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) : They have not taken the place Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Actually, for the information of the House and the hon. Members I have passed orders that the whole Tyrso Valley should be surveyed because we have an obligation to do so. 

Prof. M.N. Majaw : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we cannot accept the statement because I will tell you the 2 and 3 years ago these surveyors of the Assam State Electricity Board were driven out because we people, the Bhoi people, we believe that if you are to go through, you must have the permission, you must ask the Headman, the Sirdar and local leaders to enter there. You cannot roam about as your private bathroom or latrine (laughter) and without their permission no one is supposed to roam about as if they were the great men to teach the villages a good lesson. Then after that came the while elephants. They have appealed to the Survey of India and they have been turned out. It takes almost one year and a half before we realised this Survey of India surveying this area. This survey was done on behalf of the Assam State Electricity Board. Then I asked the Chowkidar when this was done. And after that I took a Nepali with that Chowkidar and asked both of them 'For whom this work is being done'. You know Sir, these A.S.E.B., people are very scared to go to this area and so the Survey of India's people were being called upon to complete the survey works in this area.

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) : But you know form the Chowkidar?

Prof. Martin N. Majaw : Well we met the surveyors of the Survey of India and asked them for what purpose they are conducting this survey from village to village. In reply the surveyors said that whatever we were asked upon by the Government to do, it is our duty to obey and transact they business in good time without asking the reason why. And this survey work is meant that the area from Sohphoh to the Tyrso Valley is going to be submerged under water. 

*Shri Hoover Hynniewta : Sir, on a point of clarification, the Minister-in- charge of Parliamentary Affairs at the end of his speech has said that permission was given to the State Electricity Board for investigation. 

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister for Parliamentary Affairs) : No. Not yet, permission has not yet been given. 

Shri Hoover Hynniewta : So, Sir, I just want to get that clarification and what the Member has stated is perfectly correct in so far as...... (interruption).

Prof. Martin N. Majaw : The permission has not been given but these surveyors are working there Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. At the end of my discussion Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would earnestly request upon the Government to order immediate removal of all those surveyors who are surveying over those places for construction of this dam. But in the meantime, I would like to point our Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that the main consideration here is human. Now, if this dam is to be constructed, then 14 villages are involved in the project and all these 14 villages will be completely submerged under water. 

Shri Maham Singh : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on a point of clarification, none of the Government. Now it appears that the surveyors have entered this land illegally without any official permission by the Government. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it seems so. 

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I draw the attention of the hon. Member to the fact that official permission is being given by the District Council. 

Shri Maham Singh : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to differ because the District Councils have got no power to give any permission. If at all permission is to be given it is to be given under the Land Acquisition Act, and so, it cannot be given by the District Councils but by the Government. 

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : For clarification Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister in- charge of Parliamentary Affairs has said that he has given permission for survey of the land. But he has not said that he has not given a  permission for survey. 

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister for Parliamentary Affairs) : I  think I have made it clear to all that form our side, we have not given any permission. 

Shri Maham  Singh : No, under what law these survey people have enter this land of the villagers to carry out such surveys?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister,  Agriculture) : But why they have not lodged a complaint against them. 

Shri Maham Singh : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if the land owners have not given them permission, why should they enter?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister,  Agriculture) : They are not illegally entering but they have trespassed through the places. 

Shri Maham Singh : But we have got instances that the surveyors have not trespassed but have illegally entered their area. 

*Shri Hoover Hynniewta : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may we know whether the Government is aware that this survey work is going on in the Tyrso Valley. Sir, I repeat it, whether the Government is aware that the survey work is going on in the Tyrso Valley for generation by the Electricity Board?

*Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Power) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the survey work in the area is not carried in a large scale. Normally it is only topographical survey. The Survey of India and the Assam State Electricity Board have requested permission of this Government for detailed investigation, mining exploration and foundation, etc. We have not yet studied the matter and as such we have not given any permission to anyone for investigation, as requested by the State Electricity Board. 

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, whether the surveyors are surveying irrigation scheme in the Tyrso Valley?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister,  Agriculture) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let us take the fact that for geological survey, the Survey of India does not require permission for general survey and for general routine survey by the Assam State Electricity Board we have not given them any specific permission. 

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, whether the Geological Survey of India in the Tyrso Valley has received the permission of the Government?

*Prof. M.N. Majaw : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if these people taking topographical survey are doing purely for the purpose of topography the white elephant would have been temporarily painted black. From the statement made by these people who themselves would like to meet the Minister today, at least the representative of the people says that the surveyors told them at the fact that if you do not agree, we bring military." Now in the Thynrong village which is a very small village near Mikir Hills, we have field scheme done partly by the Assam State Electricity Board and partly by the Survey of India. But it is very wrong on the part of these surveyors to utilize their services which should normally be for making survey or for making maps. For this very wrong purpose of helping in this project the intention is for damming a large part of Tyrso Valley. Now Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was interrupted by several questions which are fruitful and I am grateful to my colleagues for the assistance given to me. But I shall try to expatiate upon whom the problem is thrust. 14 villages are involved and of these 9 villages will totally be submerged. In these villages there are paddy fields but all these paddy fields, all cultivable lands or uncultivable lands, forests and everything in these 9 villages and 5 other villages like Mawhati, Sanidan, Umpohwin, etc., will be lost and submerged and that is why Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, these unfortunate people have come here today. They have come to protest leaving their cultivation. As we all know all farmers have to plough their fields especially in this sowing season and yet about 200 or 300 of them have to leave aside their ploughing work to come here to tell the Government that they want paddy and not electricity. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the problem here in addition to human is the wastage of fund. We know from the last annual financial statement of the audited report on the working of the Assam State Electricity Board that the same white elephant which has caused so much havoc in the fields of Assam or have caused depredation to the fields of Assam, now the same elephant has come to roam at large in our areas as well. Perhaps the House is aware that this small State has already loaned out Rs. 57,00,000 to the Assam State Electricity Board and recently a sum of Rs.22,00,000 been sanctioned for further loan to the Assam State Electricity Board the total amount loaned out so, far, by this gracious Government is Rs.79,00,000. This Assam Electricity Board has already eaten up crores and crores of rupees of interest amounting to 26 crores of rupees. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, these 26 crores are still being owned by the Assam State Electricity Board to various concerns here in India and outside India as interest alone and the losses of human if we were to total the losses we will suffer headache of mental gymnastic. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I  would request the Government that if the State Electricity Board is to set up dams such dams should be set up in areas where the people are not living and if the area of the dams is increased beyond 4 miles all villages near the Mikir Hills border will lose their paddy fields though villages will continue to exist. 

(Bell rang

Mr. Deputy Speaker : How many minutes more do you require?

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will now conclude my speech. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker : The House stands adjourned till 2.00 p.m. today and the discuss will continue. 

(After lunch )

        The House met at 2p.m. with the Speaker in the Chair. 

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Majaw, please continue your speech but try to be brief so that other members may have a chance. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was talking of the hill people and their customs. As you know, there are certain things  very dear to a hill man. These are his religion, his family, his land, and his community.  These are the things which are very very dear for which he is even prepared to lay down his life. Now, this problem in the entire region has become a problem of land and problem of money of the folk. Government may offer compensation and it may be possible for the Government to find a handful of persons who may submit memorandum. They will like to have compensation as happened in the case of Barapani Dam. Most of the people of the area were opposed to the setting up of a dam in the Barapani area but ultimately it came out. There were about 20 persons who submitted memorandum saying that they wanted to take compensation. But Mr. Speaker, Sir, I submit that if even lakhs of rupees are given to the farmers as compensation for the loss of the land he has to bear which has come down to him from generations from his fore-fathers and he is to obliged to pass the same land to his successors, from father to son from son to grandsons or from mothers to daughters and daughters to grand daughters. Mr. Speaker, Sir, if these lands are taken away from these farmers, where will they go? I refer to the 9 villages where they will be uprooted not only from cultivation but also from their hearth and home. They will have to set up new homes elsewhere. They will have to accommodate themselves again for their existence. What happened with the money that they got from the land at Barapani Dam last time where a few city dwellers received lakhs of rupees. The real fate of the cultivator is that he got few thousands of rupees which he has spent within a very short time because he has never seen so much money in his life. Perhaps, it is a new experience and this money slipped away from his hand. In this area of Barapani so many people who have vast village lands are now without any cultivation, and from the very small cultivation, which very insufficient, they are unable to support their family. In reply to the question of the hon. Member from Umroi Government replied saying that those persons who have to be compensated with money have not been given new site, new place to stay in. With this money which a person receives he is expected to compensate himself. He will not be able to ask the Government though he may ask the Government for more but the Government is not bound to make provision for his staying. He will have to go for land in the cities and the cost of which is very excessive. The people with their children will have to move about. They will become 'Gypsies'. If the project is put into effect all the people will be turned into 'gypsies' like the 'gypsies' of East European countries. But they do not have the magical skill of earning like the gypsies of East Europe. They are accustomed in ploughing the field. Now, Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is another aspect of it, that is the livelihood that after setting up of the dam after spending so much money, and so many things while the project was coming up, and many people have to be vacated form their land, then it may so happen that the project may be given up and it may be discovered that the site was selected through mistake and subsequently has to be changed. Sir, Barapani Dam was to be constructed and many of our Members may rather realise what ugly looking construction of road at Barapani was done, and what it signifies.......

Mr. Speaker :- Your time is up.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Sir, with these observations, I now resume my seat.

* Shri D.D. Lapang (Nongpoh S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to participate in this discussion on the special motion moved by the hon. Member from this side. In the first instance. I am referring to the statement and clarification made  by the Hon'ble Ministers, and I feel that the statement is not very clear; it is rather confusing. They had stated that the surveyors who have there have been authorised by the Government and now they were no more there. But according to my information they are still there doing some survey work in the area. If that may be the case, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would request the Government to look into the matter properly and not to put our people in any shadow of doubt and uncertainty in this new State of ours. It is also an admitted fact that the consumption of electric power as it stands to day is very negligible. And I have also had the occasion of saying that the A.S.E.B. as it is to- day, is a losing concern and it does not bring any profit to the State. Now, let us see these Barapani and Umtru Projects. The power generated by these two projects it not being consumed by our State. All the power has been transmitted to Assam, Tripura, Bhutan and other states. I have also had the occasion to know about the Nangal- bibra Thermal Project in the Garo Hills. Nothing is utilised from the power generated by this project within the jurisdiction of Garo Hills. The whole thing has been transmitted to places 80 km. away from Nagalbibra in Goalpara district. It has been expressed by some hon. Members through this august House that the Bhoi area may be called the granary of the State. I may till the House, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that if Bhoi area is to be the granny of the State, I may frankly and without any reservation say that the Tyrso Valley is the granary of the Bhoi area where this project is proposed to be installed. It is very unfortunate thing that an area which consists of such agricultural recourses with all the lands have been taken away by the Government. I may refer to the Barapani Project. The Umtru Project, the Airfield at Umroi and land for defence purposes at Nongsder, where the Hon'ble Minister has just now said that 1,400 acres of land have already been taken over and another 2,533 acres are yet to be taken for defence purposes. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have a firm belief that the hon. Members will appreciate the fact that all the fertile lands in this area will be taken away for these purposes. This will affect not only the economic condition of the people but also affect the economic development of the State as a whole. 

        Now, this Kyrdemkulai Project has been taken up and then the Umkhen- Umiam Project. One can well imagine with such an important project what will be the cost involved; if my memory does not betray me, it will be Rs.70 crores. As such according to the amount involved, it can well be imagined how big this project will be and what amount of land will be taken and how many river sources will be affected. Under these circumstances, we are really happy to note that our Government of Meghalaya has not arrived at a decision whether the project will really be installed there or not. Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I request the Government through you, to look into the matter and examine it properly and take it with all the seriousness it deserves and to see that the people of that area and the State as a whole will not be affected by this project. So, I would like to suggest that pending decision of this matter, the people who are doing the survey works in the area should be withdrawn in order to remove the misunderstanding from the minds of the innocent and illiterate people of that area. With these few words, Sir, I resume my seat. 

*Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh (Pariong S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have had enough discussion on this motion and we have had heard enough from the hon. Member who moved the motion before the House today. I only want to raise certain issues on this matter which, I think, the Government will give due consideration. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have heard enough on the survey work on this Umkhen-Umiam Power at Tyrso Valley and it is not a new subject. It is a long pending matter, since some time back, since 1964-65. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the people from that area have raised objection to the construction of the dam there which would submerge their agricultural fields, also their hearths and home. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know from the District Council side that they have look into the matter and there was also controversy of the survey with the Government of Assam. The District Council has objected to this survey and the proposed construction of a dam there and in that objection the District Council had referred to the activities of the Assam State Electricity Board in the area. Even at the time when the Assam State Electricity  Board took up survey and construction of the Umiam Dam at Khwan - although it is necessary for the development of rural electrification, for running the industries and for some other purposes in the State, and also for bringing income to the State, the District Council had objected. This present project which is proposed to be taken up is under the State of Assam, i.e., under the Assam State Electricity Board. So, by the very name it can be understood that the project belongs to the State of Assam though there is an understanding that there may be some common pool of shares with our State. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, by construction of a dam there, a large area of the agricultural lands of our State will be submerged. As you know very well, Sir, in our State we have got little agricultural lands which are in fact means for agricultural production and we also know fully well that in our  State we have got enough power potentialities to generate power but certainly not by damming the area like that of the Tyrso Valley. If Government are anxious to develop power generation in the State that can be done by selecting certain rivers in the State, considering the need of power generation in the State and also the need for rural electrification in order to bring income to the State. But we are against the construction of a dam at Tyrso Valley which will submerge the agricultural lands which we cannot afford to lose. This is one of the biggest river valleys in the State which we except that the State can raise agricultural production in future. We will produce a lot of food grain from this valley. So, Sir, by submerging this area will in fact affect the prospect of agricultural production especially food grain in the State in future, Sir, the Mover of the motion has stated that it is of public importance and of recent occurrence thought it was a project which was surveyed some time back, but now the position is such that you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, have seen before the House even the Ministers in the Government, do not understand. One has stated the other that permission was given to the surveyors just to take a survey work as to the possibility of constructing a dam there at Tyrso valley and today only, this morning we have seen contradictory statements of the Ministers. The Revenue Minister said that the surveyors were given permission for irrigation and so on and so forth. So Mr. Speaker, Sir, the actual position is that so many surveyors are there, and they have destroyed the existing cultivation of the people living in that area. The people there are being exploited so to say. Now the people are to sow the seeds in the paddy fields but they cannot do that, and even the existing cultivation which has come up in the area has been destroyer because of the activity of the surveyors. So with the threat that we used to experience here though I do not have that threat- but as the hon. Member who is the representative of that area has referred, I experienced last 2 or 3 years in my are, they said "we are from the Government of India just to take normal survey work in order to get exact location of the country and so on and so forth. They have done same thing in Mylliem the same statement issued today in respect of survey of Kynshi river, Langiong river and also Khri river. A lot of controversy arose and people people were against it and the authorities did not insist on the survey and finally dropped the project. So the gravity of the situation is that if the Government after this discussion could enlighten the position so that the surveyors can be stopped as it has been stated that no permission has been granted to these people. They must be driven away so as not to disturb the normal life of the people there. If these are allowed, Sir, I am afraid that in the next harvest, there will be a shortage of food-grains in the area, and there will be scarcity of food in the area, and it will not affect only the people inhabiting those areas of these 14 villages, but it will affect the entire Bhoi area and even the people of Shillong. So, Sir, this is my submission that the surveyors must be stopped in the interest of the smooth and peaceful living of the people there. But for development of electricity, if we need some electric power, we will take up certain other areas which will not bring a controversy or create difficulty to the people in the State. 

*Shri Hoover Hynniewta (Nongkhlaw S.T. ) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I must confess that I am in the midst of a great confusion because of the very conflicting statements made by the Minister in-charge for Parliamentary Affairs and the Minister-in- charge of Revenue. We were made to understand at first that these people who are conducting a survey survey employees of the Assam State Electricity Board. That is what the Finance Minister- in- charge of Parliamentary Affairs said this morning. He said "primarily, these are from the incorrect reports. Primary investigations are the routine duties of the Electricity Board for all over the years. These primary duties and investigations are going on all over the places for any source of power at this stage. We know for a fact that only primary investigation have been going o n. He said also for a fact that I may inform the House that at this stage, there is only a request from the Electricity Board to this Government for permission for investigation. "This is what the Minister said this morning and later on, we were told that it is not the employees of the State Electricity Board, but they are the employees of the Central Survey, and therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, you will agree with me and along with you, the whole House, that there is a conflict in the statements and the Minister-in- charge  of Revenue who is supposed to know better has told us in very very clear and plain language that no permission whatsoever  has been given. Therefore, I feel, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that three should be a little more coordination between the different departments of the Government. Perhaps our State being only a new born State, there may be certainly some conflicts here and there, but if I may say so, Sir, in all humility, there is definitely more scope for better coordination. Be that as it may, Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether these people belong to the Central Government or to the State Government the basic question which remains is this - are they free to go there without the authority of the law? Can any Government officers enter in private land and conduct some drilling operations, scratch the surface, dig the surface, establish some tents there without  going through the process of the law? I am not aware of any such provisions of the law that can authorise the Government officers to enter any persons' land except through the provisions of the Land Acquisition Act and the Land Requisition of Property Act. You can requisition the the land or you can acquire the land but before you acquire the land, there are certain procedures which are laid down in the Land Acquisition Act, 1894. I will draw your attention Mr. Speaker, Sir, to Section 4-publication of preliminary notification and powers of officers. There upon whenever it appears to the appropriate Government that land in any locality is needed or is likely to be needed for any public purpose, a notification to that effect shall be published in the official gazette and the collector shall cause public notice of the substance of such notification to be given........ locality" Sub- Section 2- "There upon it shall be lawful for any officer, either generally or specially authorized by such Government in this behalf, to enter upon and survey and take levels of any land in such locality, to dig or bore into the sub- soil; to do all other acts necessary  to ascertain whether the land is adapted for such purpose" and so on and so forth. 

        Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is only after a notification under Section 4 of the land Acquisition Act that is shall be lawful for the Government officers to conduct land survey. When the Minister- in- charge of Revenue stated that no permission has been given to take it to my mind that no notification under  Section 4 has been resorted to. And Sir, under Section 4, there is an expression 'appropriate Government' What do we mean by the term 'appropriate Government.? The definition of the 'appropriate Government' has been given in the Act itself. The expression 'appropriate Government' in relation to acquisition of land for the purpose is requisition by the Central Government and in relation to the acquisition of land for any other purpose by the State Government. So even if these people, or officers and workmen are working under the Central Government. Sir, I feel here is a good case for the Government to consider the question as to whether this survey party has entered into the land without the authority of the law. The Minister in-charge of Revenue said or rather advised the people this morning that they should go to court of law and eject those people from their land. It sounds to be a very valid advice. Had it concerned only one or two persons here and there, it would  have been quite a valid advice. But when it concerns about 5,000 citizens living in 14 villages and when the land in question covers and area of 4 sq. miles, I think it is a matter for the Government as the hon. Member from Mawhati in his wisdom and his earnestness and in this diplomacy and in this sincerity, I will not exhaust more, - has brought some specimens of these people before this House. They undoubtedly, in any standard are very poor and very backward. These are cut own people, they are flesh of our flesh and blood of our blood. Whether we should serve them or dismiss them. I think they cannot go to court of law for remedy. Had there been one or two persons involved, necessarily they could gone to the court of law. Because individual cases are none of the business of the Government. But when 14 villages with 4 sq. miles are involved, certainly this matter should be taken up by the Government.         

        Now another question has been raised as to the competence of the District Council to grant permission to these people to undertake survey undertake survey work. With all respect to the Minister in charge of Revenue, I say this is not a correct position. Because the District Council has to function under provision of the Constitution and District Council has no role to play in the land Acquisition Act and its power have also been limited by the provision to paragraph 3, sub- para 1, clause (a) that land acquisition and all the matters relation there to fall within the jurisdiction of the State Government. I think this position must be made very clear. When not a single member from the District Council is here to defend their case, why should we drag them before the House. Thereby an impression will be created that the District Council may be at fault. I think it is not fair that the District Council may be at fault. I think it is not fair that the District  Council should be brought here in this regard. Now Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very much heartened by the statement of the Minister of Revenue that no permission even to undertake survey has been given. He has brought about a relief to the people whom the hon. Member from Mawhati had brought. Should the Member from Mawhati, I believe the mover of the motion, be relieved of his lingering fear and doubts, I think the Minister -in- charge will remove the lingering doubts from his mind. 

        Sir, the most notable instance of land acquisition that  took place in our District of Khasi Hills during the regime of Assam Government was that there was a big demand from the Government of  Assam for land in Khwan area- (I do not know why Khwan should be substituted by "Barapani" in order to construct a dam for generating electricity. There was a big opposition. I think the hon. Member mover was a bit mistaken when he said that some 20 persons from that area submitted a memorandum to the Government demanding that land acquisition should be resorted to. Sir, it is not a fact. It was ultimately the elected representative of the people and the hon. Members I think the Syiem of Mylliem and other representative, in conclusion came to an agreement with the Board that this Project was necessary in the interest of the people themselves and so land acquisition was possible without any difficulty whatsoever. I think Sir, this case of acquisition of land round the village of Khwan - Umsaw should be a guide for our own Government also. That the Government will not tremble the people's feeling under their foot and I believe, Sir, it will be an act of great blunder if 4 square miles of fertile paddy land should be submerged under water. I have asked the hon. Member from Mawhati to work out the area in terms of acreage. He said it will be to the tune of nearly 4,275 acres of land. The value of one acre of land will be very high, the value of the land will be very very high and the income will also be very high. I do not think, Sir, in our small State where there are very few areas suitable for wet paddy cultivation, we should allow these areas to be submerged under water. If we require more electricity, and I think we require more electricity for sale to Bangladesh or for sale to the State of Assam and for the purpose of meeting the gap of  Rs.343 lakhs. We need some additional income, but not the income that will be derived from submerging such vast area of land. Let us think of some other areas where cultivable or cultivated land will not be submerged under water and if it is submerged, it will be only of small area, but not of this magnitude. I, therefore, request through you Mr. Speaker, Sir, that the Government should not think in terms of income and should not allow that this idea should invade their conscious mind without seeking first the opinion and the consent of the people. 

*Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, since there is a confusion, I would like to be more specific in my reply. Through you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would request the hon. Members  to be a little bit realistic and also to approach any problem with foresight. We have come into being as a full-fledged State a few months ago with the primary objective to increase the tempo of the State to do service to the people. If that be the objective, we have the opportunity outside as well ass inside this floor to discuss how to proceed in this particular direction to bring about all round development of the State and the people. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I had the occasion earlier, this cannot be viewed with a detached view. We must take the State as a whole. We must also be able to examine the possibilities, ways and means to achieve that objective. Very often I have had the occasion through this floor and also outside to make it very clear that the achievement of the Statehood is not  an end, but is only a means to serve the people. May I, Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your permission request the Members to be a little patient and examine the second chapter of our journey, that means the journey which will aim at removing poverty, ignorance and disease. What are the means? What are the possibilities? What are the potentialities? What are the resources which God has given us? I can recollect that my collegiate opposite to have had the occasion to discuss about the future of our proposed State at that time and also meet the arguments put forward against the proposal on the ground that it will not be viable it will be a very small State and it will not be economically viable. We have had the occasion to put forward against the arguments. The area is very small, the population is very small , but we have resources -natural resources. We have enough forest resources. We are confident once we are given a place in the political map of India and once the Government gives us a State, gives us assistance to exploit all these resources available in our small  are for which we want a separate State that a time will come when the State will not only be self-sufficient not only viable economically but may also contribute something to the nation as a whole. I am not going to say that the difficulties of the people should be ignored. I do not want to advocate that we should not  mind bringing about some economic dislocation to the people. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as responsible leaders and having taken a vow to serve the people and for the purpose, we  have asked them to give us the blessings by way of voting us to this House, I think it is time for us now to put our heads together and devise ways and means how to proceed. We are gong to be really responsible in bring about all-round economic and social welfare to the people of the State whom we represent in this small august House. Similar misunderstanding, similar apprehensions come about even among the members of the family and we are trying to do something to build the small family. But unless and until we have that courage and the initiative to explore the possibilities of tapping all the available resources  depending on which we will proceed towards the ultimate goal. I do not know why in spite of the statement made before the House that final decision to construct a Dam has not been taken, there will be much worry and anxiety about it. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in fact, I think if I can get the clearance and blessing and also an assurance for the co-operation, this Government will take up all the necessary investigations for tapping the resources available- whether it is power potential, mineral, forests or others. If the hon. Members can give me a clearance for the purpose, we will be able to march ahead and remove the difficulties standing in the way for the development of the State. Without knowing what is under ground, what is the hidden wealth of our State, I do not know how I can proceed in the matter of rendering service to the people. We cannot print currency, we cannot depend on the Government of India; grant. So I would expect the active and unreserved cooperation of the hon. Members, the entire House and the people of the State as whole to lend their helping hands in order to know what our State has. What are the available wealth at the top, what are our power potentials, what are the industries that can be established. There is minerals wealth, forests wealth and other wealth available in the State. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think we should not lose time to have an affective agency to explore all these possibilities but I agree that in doing so, we must take out people into confidence. We must inform them why it is being done, what is the alternative objective. 

        Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have had an experience in my small district when I was the Chief Executive Member of the District Council. We have invited the Geological Survey of India to investigate the coal deposits, lime deposits there in Garo Hills. Of course, we have taken the initiative and they also wanted to take us into confidence. The agencies, like the Geological Survey of India and other Parties, they came in contact with the Deputy Commissioner and came in contact even with the District Council authorities. In fact, they used to ask me - "please give some sort of direction or request or appeal to the village chiefs to extend their co-operation and also to extend other help possible to undertake this particular investigation". Generally, there was some procedural difficulty, as pointed out by Mr. Hynniewta; there might have been absence and lack of co-ordination. But it is a realistic approach in the matter of exploring the resources available in the State. Should the department from the procedure and lack of co-ordination stand in the way? I think the officers and  staff serving in various Departments and the Minister in charge of different portfolios are all human beings. There may be some misunderstanding, there may be some departure from the procedure, there may be lack of co-ordination, but we must have a constructive approach in this particular aspect of the matter of knowing what is available today in the State. I think Power, other minerals, forests or any other wealth, which will be our foundation, will be the means for rendering service to the people, and to achieve further goal. I think we must rather choose an opportunity to sit together, discuss these things instead of trying to find fault with the Government knowing very well that without resorting to these means of investigations, either through our own agency or through the agency available with the Government of India, or may be a private agency these things will not be possible. In fact, sometimes we have invited private agencies who may be expert in a particular field to investigate and submit their report. While coming to this particular project, as far as investigations are concerned. I think there should be no objection to it, if there is a clear understanding between the authority whether it is the District Councils or the State Government to arrange, so that there can be no apprehension on the part of the poor villages. I think we must be able do that. We must be able to resolve that. We must be able to make  good of the deficiency or the failure on the part of the administration even if we agree to allow these investigations with proper understanding. And to create a happy atmosphere, even at a later stage, as put forward by the hon. Member from Mawhati, if in the final examination, it is found that it is of no use, even though the prospects are good and the report is very very satisfactory, the project may not be taken up. Instead of going ahead with construction of a Dam, because of the shortage of food, it this particular area is to be submerged, it will not be desirable to go ahead with this project. We must make a study whether by allowing the area to be submerged and going in for power, ultimately it is going to help the State, to help those people who are going to be affected or not. In fact, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not only in this State of ours, but I think elsewhere in the country such difficulties are there. I think God has been so kind to us. In any other parts of the country also it is mostly in the tribal area where there is sufficient deposit of natural resources whether we talk about river valley projects, or forest-based industries or whether we talk about the metal based industries. There have been occasions to oust thousands and thousands of tribal people but it is done in the interest of development of the country as a whole and Government has to go on with these projects. As the hon. Members are aware the Government also realise this. We are endowed with vast natural resources and whenever we have occasion to tap these resources the most unfortunate have been the tribal people to have to be ousted from their hearths and homes. The Commissioner for the Schedule Castes and Schedule Tribes in his report has made specific recommendations that while it cannot be avoided to oust these backward people in the larger interest of the project, the country and the people, the Government should also see to it that these people are properly rehabilitated. All that will take time. As the vocations may not be suitable to them we have got to see that apart from the compensation which may have to be paid for the land specific programmes for their economic rehabilitation should be kept in sight and schemes should be so designed as to give them a feeling that they have been properly looked after though they have to leave their homes. Well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, if we agree that our project would be such but if we are to work out the details for these unfortunate people, I think there will be no scope for this project now. Well, the mover of the motion has also complained about the wastage of money. He said : Now, after investigation if it is found that it is not feasible to go for a power project for spending Rs.70 lakhs, or Rs.2 or 3 crores and in this regard, he mentioned about the Kopili project. Well, if you are trying to investigate different possibilities, naturally you have to spend money, It is not only this particular project but also projects elsewhere for which crores and crores of money have been spent during the investigations. This is unavoidable. We have to make certain investment and one of my colleagues has remarked that it is not going to be economical. At the initial stage the Government invests money for exploiting all the natural resources available in this State. That means Government even now is investing. We have been asked to pay only 10 per cent as loan and 90 per cent  is being given to us as grant. Unless and until we can adopt a policy and come forward with concrete proposals to the Government of India and the Planning Commission in order to make the economic policy viable we have also to contribute. So we must have adequate money for taking up all these investigations in the country for power potential, for having new industries to be based on forest or minerals and other things. Therefore, I cannot agree that any amount spent in investigation, if after the investigations the projects could not be taken up, will be a wastage, I cannot accept that view. Mr. Speaker, Sir, my senior colleague excuse me as I do not always remember the name of his constituency but I hope you will not mind. Mr. Hynniewta has brought one legal question about acquisition. Mr. Speaker, Sir, if we are to go through with the land acquisition procedure it is going to be more expensive. Acquisition always comes at a later stage. There is a possibility, there is an indication-let us talk about this particular project in-question that by construction of a dam it may be possible to produce power. But I have just received a note that the Government have ultimately omitted this particular scheme. Now there is a huge coal deposit in the Cherrapunjee area, a huge coal deposit in the Darranggiri area of Garo Hills, a huge limestone deposit in Siju; so also in Jaintia Hills and Khasi Hill. Now even for the investigations of these deposits the Geological Survey of India or any other Agency.

Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a point of personal explanation. Section 4 does not make it mandatory on the part of the Government to acquire land. If you issue a notice and the people may object to the acquisition itself but under Sec.4 we do not have to pay compensation except for the damage done to the land by drilling and so on and so forth. We do not have to pay any compensation but the question is how can they make it legal for the Government servants to enter into any place or land and damage it. Sir, that is the question.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, from my experience, when I was the Minister in charge of Tribal Area Department under the Government of Assam I can say that the tribal people are very very reluctant to the word "acquisition" and this is always a matter which might come to the understanding through negotiations.

Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- That is the best.

*Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Yes that is the best otherwise there is no requisition or acquisition. Well it is unfortunate, that the real acquisition of land procedure was through the negotiation. Under the Land Acquisition Act, it was found finally that project would be feasible at that time but it would come through negotiation. It will not be correct to say that since the District Council is not competent to resort to the land Acquisition Act the District Council is outside the picture. The District Council of Garo Hills, as I said, Mr. Speaker, Sir, was very much in the picture and when I was the Chief Executive Member, I remember even the survey party had always to depend upon the Government or District Council and we had to help them to investigate. But I would agree that in this particular areas even for the investigation the Survey party is bringing dislocation of economic pursuit of the people. Therefore, we must give them in term relief or compensation or whatever it is. I think this is going to take place for one year and within that time there will be a lot of dislocation that we have to take into account.  Well, Sir, these are procedural matters and there is scope for us to explore all the values of the State of Meghalaya such as the wealth  power, the potential power or any other material resources which God has been so good to give us. Well Mr. Speaker, Sir, again in an investigation or in any matter to give the final conclusion to acquire some definite knowledge I think you cannot but incur expenditure. The mover of the Motion in his own way of approach to this question, and in order to give emphasis and to convince the Government, had to incur expenditure by bringing these people. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : I protest Mr. Speaker, Sir, they were neither paid nor brought, but they came here themselves and I did not spend for them. 

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : I quite remember, Mr. Speaker,  Sir, that on the 4th instant he made an announcement 'I am going to bring the Lalung tribals, topless, bottomless' and when he brought in any such tribals he has to incur an expenditure and requested the hon. Members to donate money for these people. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw : Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a point of information, I did not ask them to do so. The treasurer from Mawlai, Shri S.D. Khongwir, has brought in the issue. 

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : At least you have incurred expenditure for bringing those people here. 

Shri H.E. Pohshna (Nongtalang S.T.) : You can donate more to the refugee instead. 

Shri W.A Sangma (Chief Minister) : I mean certain amount of expenditure has to be incurred. Sometimes even for building a particular project and after spending crores of rupees for that particular project, thought it is feasible or not, you have to obtain certain amount to ultimately complete it. Even this world is being built up on an experiment, it is being build on research and study and for doing that crores and crores of rupees have to be spent and there has been also wastage, there also has been huge expenditure, all these are unavoidable. Now if you take this attitude, let us forget about his particular area of Tyrso as indicated by the hon. Member if there be any other possibility, we can develop the dislocated cultivation and go ahead asking the experts to investigate the feasibility and submit a report before the Government and then come to a final decision. Government has given green signals but ultimately after spending lakhs of rupees we find that particular project is not feasible, then we have to give it up. The hon. Member said unless the Government is no investigation should go ahead. How can it be definite? We are not scientists, we are not experts and Government has had to complete its picture of composition as a full-fledged State earlier than it actually came into existence. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have in course of my intervention heard from the hon. Members on the other side and I would like them to excuse me because I thought by this intervention I should make my humble suggestion as to how to proceed to build a new State of ours for the interest of our people in bringing an all- round development and make the State of ours economically viable.

Mr. Speaker : Now the Minister-in- charge to reply?

*Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Power) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, before I say any thing on the actual Umkhen- Umiam dam, I would like to refute the first remarks of the Mover of the Motion in so far as discussion on this Motion is concerned. At the beginning and at the end of his speech, he has said that there was an attempt to throttle and stop discussion. It was not at all correct. The point of order which was raised was only with regard to the spirit of Rule 130A. At no time had this Government or will this Government make any attempt to stop discussion and I do not think we even have the right to do so. So when he accused the sincerity of this Government I feel that is an a unwarranted remark. In my opinion, the statement regarding possible conclusion with the State Electricity Board, is totally unwarranted. Now, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have got a right to refer again to the statement made on 22nd June in this House thereby to remind the Members. I have said that the Assam State Electricity Board have earlier prepared a preliminary project report on this Umkhen-Umiam Hydel Project. These preliminary projects, as I have also stated in the original preliminary project report, include also the Tyrso Valley for damming the Umiam River there. Subsequently to save the available cultivable lands in the Tyrso Valley and to meet the accidental agitation of the people, the Board has modified its preliminary decision not to submerge any land in the Tyrso Valley. Now, Mr. Speaker, Sir, a part from the contention by the Member from Mawhati and inspite of his statement to resist the decision even if this House intends to do it you cannot avoid flooding the Tyrso Valley. He has also tried his very best to bring in certain arguments that this Government has rejected his proposal and the decision not to allow the State Electricity Board to sink down the Tyrso Valley. Mr. Speaker, Sir, with the Engineer concerned, I had the occasion to visit the place and he has definitely stated that there is no question of submerging the Tyrso Valley which comes under Stage II of the earlier preliminary project. But the present idea is to take up any position of the first 3 stages of this project which include all possible submergences of about 4 sq. miles in the Jaintia Hills and about 4.3 sq. miles in the Khasi Hills.

        Now, there were certain people who came to see me in 1970, shortly after Autonomous State was formed and for the first time I had heard about this Umkhen-Umiam Hydel Project from  my friend who also happened to be a Member of this Assembly of this Assembly at that time. The people told me that there were more investigation going on in 1968-69 or during some other previous time all over the Tyrso Valley. These people are very much afraid that the whole valley may be submerged. Then I called for a number of reports from the Chairman, Assam State Electricity Board and I have requested him to look into the matter before the Government takes this project into consideration. After some time, they have submitted a report that they will follow up this earlier Project only at stages II and III.  The Government of Meghalaya received a letter only very recently-just before the Assembly for permission for detailed investigations. This also I have reported to this House and we were considering the matter of detailed investigations for Stage I an Stage III and not for Stage II. Now, I would like to inform the House, and particularly the Member from Mawhati, one of the factual errors that he has made in his speech. He has referred to unnecessary expenditure. Who would not be so cautions to the unforeseen circumstances that might take place? He said that a Dam may be constructed and the whole area will be flooded and then eventually we should give it up. He has also referred in particularly to the wall at Barapani which can be seen on the right bank up till now as a monument for the construction of the Dam. I may not be as eloquent as he is Mr. Speaker, Sir, he being a Professor and therefore I cannot agree to his arguments in the sense that he has quoted that the wall which can be seen even now on the right bank of the dam is a wall for running the travelling mast of the cableway for building the dam. This Wall is necessary for construction of the Umiam Dam and is not a waste. 

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : But it cannot be said whether this will be given up. In my opinion we are to make all necessary investigations as to the potentialities and possibilities available in the State. 

Shri S.D.D. Nichols- Roy (Minister, Power) : Now I am referring to the field of Oil Drilling. I am referring to the statement made by the Member from Mawhati who has impressed upon the Government about the necessity of finding out new sources for oil drilling and the like. Well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, investigations to find out location of underground oils have been well going on through the efforts of the Geology and Mining Department, Government of India and new sources have been recently detected. Mr. Speaker, Sir, drilling for oil has been also started in one place in the Garo Hills District. Recently another areas has been found to have oil deposit. But the latter one was not succeeded in drilling and investigations are still in progress in other areas. But this does not mean that we should not march ahead with all  States in the country for an abundant coal in regard to power projects. We have got resources and still further investigations for power projects are necessary so that we may design eventually which particular project should be taken up and which particular project should not be taken up. Now so far as the survey work is concerned the state Electricity Board took up preliminary investigation some time back but did not involve any damage for which compensation is required to be paid.  The Assam State electricity Board is responsible for investigations of the potential for power of the State and these are done by may studies and site visits and only when prima- facie potentialities are established further investigation are taken up.  For detailed investigations permission has been asked for in this particular project. Only after detailed survey the submergence or otherwise of any particular areas can be established. In the Umkhen areas the Assam State Electricity Board has not taken up any investigation apart from the reconnaissance of the dam site and observing river flow and rainfall in a few places. This is map study and site visits. No permission is necessary for carrying out topographical survey. This is map study and site visit. No permission is necessary for carrying out topographical survey. This is done by the Government of India Agency for public purpose. The survey of India or the Geological Survey of India only inform the Government about the work intimating that persons will be working in the area. Now the present proposal is for 2 reservoirs, one dam at Umkhen and a dyke at Umler creating reservoir of 6 sq. miles of which 4 sq. miles in Khasi Hills as I have said earlier and 1 sq. miles in Mikir Hills. The figures are also for one project, the Umiam- Umkhen project which is being raised to one dam at Umiam rivers below the confluence of Umswai river creating a reservoir of 5 sq. miles, 1 in Khasi Hills and 4 in Mikir Hills. The cultivated land is 3 sq. miles,  2 sq. miles in Khasi Hills and 1 sq. miles in Mikir Hills.  If we add the total cultivated areas of both stage I and stage III we get approximately 1 sq. miles of cultivated areas against 6 approximate figures of mapping studies and is not possible to say the exact acreage that would be submerged. But these areas estimated figures at this stage. The hon. Member from Mawhati had made a point about the 9 villages to be submerged but to our knowledge none of the villages will be submerged. They are within the original proposal in stage II. The regulated water from the upper reservoir at Umkhen- Umler will be led to the lower Umiam- Umswai reservoir 400 ft. below Tyrso Valley partly through a tunnel and partly through the natural river channel. Regulated discharge will be accommodated only within the channel by doing some regarding if necessary. Now I am one who would like to take up many dams in the last 12 years but I am conscious also about the need of caution in Hydel Project where it involves submergence  of paddy fields. But again the State as a whole has to balance the need for power against the need for our farmers to have their paddy fields or their cultivable lands. At this stage I think it would not wise on my part to say that we do not have any investigation. It is the intention of our Government to take into confidence people involves in such project before giving a final decision. I agree whole- heartedly with the Member form Nongkhlaw in  his approach but what was done earlier in Barapani project is too l ate to improve now. But Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to bring a few facts for the Member to ponder. So far as power requirement of our State is concerned, it is true that at the moment our State uses very little power, very few villages are electrified as compared with other State. We are probably the lowest in power consumption, we use only a total of 8 Mws of power. For the capital I have not worked it out but  there is a growing need of power and I am sure that the member will recall that during the budget discussion last year many members had said that they would like to have power brought to their constituencies, there area or their villages, the need for rural electrification and for the development of the country, and the question is how we are going to get that power. It may be the feeling of the members that we require power in the 2 and 4 projects we have raised there and whether we will require power in the next 40 or 50 years. I would like to inform the House of estimated need only for Meghalaya not to speak of the estimated need of the whole of North Eastern Region, not to speak of the needs of our neighbouring country of Bangladesh ass has been mentioned by the member from Nongkhlaw. At the moment we use only 8 mws of power in Meghalaya land if all villages of Meghalaya which are estimated at about 450 are to be electrified at an average calculated by the people who are working in the Department 5 mws per village were require 22.5 mws of power for the phase programme. Then if some of the irrigated areas are required pump irrigation to be applied with power, we would require not less than 45 mws of power and if we are to go in for industrial development even those industries which are under present investigation which have potential in our State, it will give quite a considerable employment possibilities to the people of our State and we will require not less than 27 industries not to speak of future potential industries that we may find up later on if we adopt just the present power use. For rural electrification and pump irrigation the entire need is being examined and investigated to get 102 mws of power. Now we have in Meghalaya just out of minimum hydel project of one or two. The Umtru project is the same valley system. 

        Kyrdemkulai 62.50 M.W. calculated @ 60 per cent firm factory capacity. If you go for industries, it will require continuous and calculated continuous power of 27.6 M. W. for continuous years @ 100 per cent load factory. Now at the moment, Umiam -Umtru system has got no surplus power. It is linked up with the State of Assam and the plan of Government of India is to link it up with the whole country. It is linked up with the great cities of the North- East India. So we do not need or rather we are not planning about our own State's power production at the moment; not to speak of our own requirement but the requirement of whole North- East India and the neighbouring country of Bangladesh is going to be increased in few years and therefore, it will be necessary for the whole States and the Government of India to increase the possibility of development of Hydro Electric potentialities and the resultant resources of Hydro Electricity. Again, we must realise that tit takes time to develop Hydro- Electric power- bases. 

        Power, like communication, is a basic infra-structure for growth - both the industrial and agricultural sectors. In a developing economy, particularly poised for growth, there is continuous need for power. Availability of cheap power is pre-condition for attracting industries to the State. As the gestation period of power generation is invariably long, it is essential that power is made ready well ahead to its actual requirement. 

        The anticipated power demand in 1980-81 for the North- Eastern region, as worked out by the Government of India, is 550 MWS. The assessment made by the Assam State Electricity Board also confirms that even after completion of the Kyrdemkulai and other projects already taken in hand, if no other project can be completed by 1980-81, the shortfall in the power requirement in this region will be as high as 335 MWS.

        For power generation, it is ideal to have a mixture of both thermal and hydel plants. It is well known that hydel offers the cheapest possible generation and low cost of maintenance. The North-Eastern region offers the great possible scope for hydel power generation in the country. In view of the high capital cost on hydel power project and long gestation period, complete data must be made available to prepare a project report for consideration of the authorities concerned. Most of the hydel schemes which can afford benefits of low cost power generation are yet to be investigated in detail. The Government of India have advised that it is essential that investigations of these schemes are taken up on a priority basis at an early date so that advance action can be initiated to take up their implementation during the 5th Plan period and subsequently. This is also necessary to avoid delays in execution and enormous increase in cost of the projects which are attributable largely to lace of power investigation at the time of taking up the schemes for implementation. 

        The Government of India in the Ministry of Irrigation and Power has so far included the following two projects in the Decade Plan :- 

Hydel

...

Lower Umiam -Umkhen

...      260 MWs

Thermal

...

Namrup II Extension

...        30 MWs

        Additionally, there is a proposal alto to take up Chandrapur 1st Extension of 30 MWs.

        The Government of India desires that this investigation work should be taken upon top priority basis. The Planning Commission has also approved an allocation or Rs.21 lakhs for taking up the investigation work on Lower Umiam- Umkhen Project. There should, therefore, be no apprehension in the minds of the people that the project has already been cleared by the Government for implementation. Only after full investigation work and availability of all data, a detailed project report will be prepared for consideration of the authorities concerned. Before the preparation of a detailed project report under section 28, it may not be clearly understood for which concentration is required. In coming to a decision Government will take full not of the carious aspects of the problem. From the discussion that I had with the Chairman of the Board, it has been made clear that Tyrso Valley will not be affected by this project. Unless detailed investigations in the field are completed it is not possible to access the extent of submergence of land for the purpose of the reservoir. Let us therefore heave the derailed investigation completed first before any further discussion and decision is taken. 

        The movers of the motion have very eloquently mentioned about the problem of farmers and I certainly appreciate the problem of any farmer, whether they were shifted to anywhere or if they were dislocated and if there be any loss from their land under occupation of Government. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to suggest that there are some projects in other parts of the world and perhaps in other parts of India too, which have been dedicated to the people. People who built houses before any project been was establish and then they have come forward for giving help for architecture of projects in the areas and so on and so forth. This would be one of the needs we have to consider before coming to a decision to start hydro- electric project and before we could distribute to the farmers of the State. I have mentioned time and again to the Engineer and members of the State Electricity Board and no response from this particular Department is received. These two projects were requested to take these factories into consideration so that the poor cultivators who cannot make the case very well known to the people, concerned, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I may assure not only the Member from Mawhati, but the whole House that I shall make every effort that in every development of power, if any project is to submerge any area, we will definitely make it a point to request the engineers concerned to design such a project to take into consideration these human factors. I recall the remarks made by the hon. Members from Pariong and Nongkhlaw about the need of rural electrification for future development of the State and so on so forth. It is necessary for us even in the transitional period of two year to go into this question. We have already made a statement about this and what will happen to this particular organisation known as Assam State Electricity Board and its benefit to our State and we must take into consideration the timing of development of power projects so that our State is not left behind when we plan for the future. If we stop all investigation now an stop all construction of new power projects, we may find that after 5 years when we really require the power, we will not have the power an when our industries are about to come up in the next two years perhaps, we will not have the power. So we have to plan ahead o time because these projects take a long time to plan to investigate an then if we decide on that, we will have to implement the same. I agree very much with member who has stated that we must do something about the surveyors, especially if they have stated that if the people prevent them, they can bring the police or army and so on ad so forth.  This is a very unfortunate attitude, and it will be our endeavour to correct the wrong attitude of any surveyor whether they are of the Government of India or from our States or any other organisation in field, when they are doing the work meant of the benefit of whole State and of the whole county. I would not agree to trample on anybody's paddy fields and I agreed that it will be a blunder on part of the Government to trample on 4 sq. miles of paddy land but as I have stated, it is a matter of 640 acres which this particular approach is under consideration, but even for this, we have to examine more carefully after investigation whether it will be worthwhile taking it or not. In the case of roads Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is no doubt about it that require roads and often in building roads, we have to cross over somebody's private land. Road builders have take over some land, sometimes they have to cut down valuable trees sometimes they have to go through paddy fields, but for the sake of the benefit of the State, for the sake of the areas as a whole, some people have to give up their land and surrender that part of land or that part of their cultivation, but they are to be properly compensated according to the law of the land for the benefit of the villages or the area of the State as a whole. The same would be true for power. It is, as I said earlier, the basic necessity and infrastructure. If we want development in the modern sense in addition to agricultural development, industrial development and so on, I would request the members to be balanced in the view points and not the exaggerate at this stage, the problems that are difficult enough for our State to face. Unless we investigate the projects which we have with some basic primary investigation now, it will be difficult to investigate those that we have no information at all. 

Mr. Speaker : You have repeated the same information over and over again. I think it is better to shorten it. 

*Shri S.D.D. Nichols - Roy (Minister, Power) : I will end Mr. Speaker, Sir, by stating again that we shall take into confidence not only before any decision is taken in implementing the projects which may be investigated, and I would just seek the co-operation of the Members in trying to tackle this problem which at the moment not only my own responsibility as Minister- in- charge of Industries and Power, but of this Government and this House as a whole. 

*Prof. M.N. Majaw : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very happy to notice the great sincerity of the Minister who spoke, but sometimes sincerity, because culpability and I would like to rectify one or two facts, mathematical facts, the one we cannot escape, Sir, that there are 640 acres in a square mile and that is to be multiplied by 4 and that brings. 

*Shri S.D.D. Nichols- Roy (Minister, Power) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I talked about the cultivable area, whereas the statement made earlier is about paddy fields which is 400 and odd acres. I was referring to a stretch of cultivable area from one sq. mile as against the statement made by the hon. Member here. 

Prof. M.N. Majaw : Further we are to speak very clearly that before investigation is made, permission has to be taken. I remember the permission of the State Government has to be taken before this investigation is to be made, but Mr. Speaker, Sir, we know for a fact that having given all these places, at least 2 places that are closer to Mawlahoh at Shrem and with  other place closer to Thadrang, the Assam State Electricity Board to day is conducting investigation. at the same time we are told the matter is under consideration. There is certainly some confusion. If permission is yet to be granted how these people, in contravention of rule, can start investigation at those places. Now if the Government ask for our co- operation, my humble submission would be that how Assam State Electricity Board can  write letter to the State Government asking for a detailed investigation quite some time ago without our knowledge. While we are representing that area we should have been taken into confidence before the Assam State Electricity Board authority could ask the State Government for investigation. Now the Assam  State Electricity Board has started investigation already and the Government is seeking our co-operation. 

*Shri S.D.D. Nichols- Roy (Minister, Power ) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, the letter was addressed to us just before the Assembly met and we have not considered the matter yet by ourselves and not to speak of consulting the hon. Members before the meeting of the Assembly. 

Mr. Speaker : Better I should close the discussion. Because the Minister has given all the information to the mover of the motion. Although all the necessary information have been given by the Minister still some of the hon. Members are trying to make this forum for all misinformation. The  Chief Minister has already assured that what ever happened in future to the people who will vacate, they will be taken into confidence. The Minister-in- charge has invited co- operation from hon. Members. 


RESOLUTION

          Since you are also interested as well as the Government now let us come to the item No.6 of today's list of business. Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw has already moved a resolution on the Family Planning. I would now request those hon. Members who would like to participate in the resolution moved by Prof. Majaw, to speak. 

*Shri H. Enowell Pohshna (Nongtalang S.T. ) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support, they resolution of the hon. Member.  The resolution which is very very difficult because this subject is a universal subjects right from the creation of mankind. 

Mr. Speaker : It is the creation of making. 

(laughter)

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna : Yes I agree, it is the creation of mankind. In this connection I would like to read before the House as to what our father of the Nation, Mahatma Gandhi, says regarding family planning. He says - "It is one thing when married people regulate the number of their progeny by moral restraint and totally another when they do so inspite of sexual indulgence and by means adopted to obviate the result of such indulgence. In one case, people again in every respect, in the other there is nothing but harm". So Sir, this is a very great subject and I am a very small man. Therefore, I shall confine myself in so far as our State is concerned.......

Mr. Speaker : So the politician should also exercise moral restraint...

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna : Mr. Speaker, Sir, while supporting the resolution moved by the hon. Member I should say that we are a small State. I am only concerned for the Meghalayans. According to the census report that has been published by the Directorate of Census Operation in Meghalaya that the population in Meghalaya in 1961 was 7,0,44,830. According to the census report that has been published by the Directorate of Census Operation in Meghalaya that the population in Meghalaya in 1961was 7,0,44,830. According to this report the growth of population is only 3.01 per cent in 1961. According to the census report, during the last 10 years the growth of population in Meghalaya is not increasing rather it is decreasing. It has been mentioned during the Question Hour by hon. Minister in charge of Rehabilitation that in Garo Hills 50 or 60 thousand Garo refugees have been rehabilitated. Can we say this as increase of population? I do not like to use the word 'influx' as has been stated by our Finance Minister. I should say this is a massive inflow of population from outside the State. There has been no increase of tribal population. Therefore, Sir, I would  urge upon our Government to give us the idea of family planning which is a very serious proposition in so far as our State is concerned. What would be the future of our Meghalayans in the eastern region? I am afraid, lest our name be washed away from the annals of the history, if family planning programme is implemented here. A day may come when we will be shown in the picture and cinema as happened in the case of Red Indians in America. Therefore, it is not the time for us to adopt this family planning. In this Shillong town, what will happen to Shillong town in future. Everywhere we go, it is full of outsiders. Therefore, we cannot avoid the inflow of outsiders. Therefore, we should also to see that our population should grow otherwise we may be extinct in the very near future in the coming centuries. Therefore, we should also see that our population should grow otherwise we may be extinct in the very near future in the coming centuries. Coming into the second part of this subject that has been explained by the Mover of the Resolution, Sir, regarding various methods, it is very very difficult to be frank to discuss this subject (laughter). I think very few people have visited Family Planning Centres. I know one doctor had to resign when he was asked to demonstrate in the demonstration camp. 

        Finally, Sir, before I taken my seat, I do hope some hon. Members from the Ruling Party will oppose this Resolution. It is a universal subject. Sir, it has been said that marriage is universal and some people said that it is obligatory and some tribes and communities used to say that they feel very bad if they cannot arrange marriage for their children before they attain the age of 15 years. It has been the belief whether it is religious or custom a common belief. Therefore, Sir, the number of children indicates blessings of the Gods (Laughter). Barrenness of any family- if one family is extinct, if one clan is extinct -shows that there was a crime in the previous years which has got the punishment of the Gods (Bell rang).

        The last point, Sir, is this. Sir, we are fighting against nature. Man is not different in instinct with other living beings. What will become of a man of the creation if he fights against the instincts. Therefore, with these few words, Sir. I strongly support the motion moved by the hon. Mover, from the religious point of view, national point of view and also for fighting against the law of nature. So far as our State is concerned, I am afraid that if we adopt this family planning, we may become extinct in the very near future. 

   (Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair, )

*Shri M. Reidson Momin (Dadenggiri S.T. ) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to participate in the discussion on the Resolution moved by the hon. Member from Mawhati Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, family planning programme of the Government is based on a sound base with the policy of the Government of India and it is also very much in keeping with the current events of the world and also inline with the policy of the Government of India. It has the full support from every Member of this House and we are not at all grouping in darkness as the hon. Mover has stated the other day. Today our country is faced with inflation of population and unless it is checked in time, our economy and health of the nation will be jeopardised. In order to eradicate illiteracy, poverty and disease, we must have a control over the population and unless and until we have a limited number of family members and unless we believe that a small family means happy and healthy life, we shall not be able to build our healthy State of Meghalaya. Today the hon. Member from the opposite side has said that we may be extinct after few year's time. But I quite disagree with him because Meghalaya has been created by the Government of India for the benefit of our hills people and for the survival of our tribal entity. We should from time to time adopt such policies that we may increase or decrease our population according to the availability of resources in the State. The hon. Mover has stated that it is a crime to bring in the application of this birth control or so called family planning programme.

( Voice - Immoral )

        Immoral at first, he said murder. But Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I must point out to him, although he is not here, that the motion is more criminal or more immoral than applying this present birth control with noble means of family planning programme. Since the hon. Member has said that we cannot give life and definitely we cannot take away life from the unborn and the baby who would be born instead of allowing the baby to be born or instead of taking away his life by adopting abortion, it is better that we observe this family planning programme. So I believe this is a sound policy that we should readily accept in our own humble way. In this programme, I find sincerity and whole-hearted desire on the part of the Government to ensure help to our nursing mothers and also to eradicate the rate of infant morality. I do not want to say much on this. So, with these few words, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I resume my seat.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot (Nongstoin S.T.) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Resolution moved by the hon. Member from Mawhati. As one of the Members has stated that it is very difficult to be frank in discussing this very subject, but since it is has come to  the floor of the House, we are to give our own ideas whether it may be right or wrong.

        But according to my conscience, according to my belief and according to my knowledge, I say that adoption of this family planning is against eradication of immorality. If at all we are to impose moral science in schools we are to teach morals to our infants, we betray ourselves by adopting this family planning in the State. To be frank, now-a- days you will find that children of 14/15 years have premature marriage and this also causes different kinds of diseases it causes deterioration of the clan and, at the same time, it will reduce or it is reducing the population in the State. As Mr. Pohshna has rightly pointed out, the population of Meghalaya is not growing but it is decreasing. While we Khasis are very proud that we are Khasis, we should try at least to retain and to preserve the dignity of the customs of Khasi people, and we must work hard to increase the population as otherwise after 10 or 20 years our Khasi community will be extinct. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if the Government want the support from the Opposition bench as well as the support of the public as a whole, I strongly support the motion and request the Government to with draw this family planning scheme in future. 

*Shri Manindra Rava (Tikrikilla) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to oppose the Resolution moved by the hon. mover with regard to family planning. Our friends in the Opposition said that the creative power is the blessing of God and that we cannot or we should not prevent it, I agree with that, Sir. But we must think of our national life and about maintaining the status quo of this modern day. In the previous days, of course, there was a tendency to increase population and most of the people also try to increase population by resorting to polygamy and have a number of wives with the result that there were clashes also. In some States, Sir, when a marriage is over, the Gurus also bless the couples that they must be able to produce or have at least 100 children. That was the blessing. But now those days are gone. We cannot, therefore, support the Resolution. Our friends in the Opposition also indicated that we are very small in number, especially the tribal people. It is certainly so. We can, of course, increase our population by any means, but we cannot increase or produce more lands or estates. One of our Opposition friends also narrated the story of a father in village area, who has 10 children but eight of them had died with only two left, 80 per cent of the children had died. This may be due to unhygienic conditions of life they led and also due to illiteracy. So from this point of view, we should not emphasise to increase our population and we should rather emphasise to have a small number of family. We should emphasise on modernisation of our lives for rapid development of our State. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to oppose the Resolution; because if we as a new born State adopt it, it will be against the national policy which has been adopted by the Central Government on Family Planning and we should not oppose all Plans and Programmes adopted by the  Central Government. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I oppose the Resolution. 

*Shri Salseng Marak (Resubelpara S.T.) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to participate in the discussion on Family Planning. I will speak only about the importance of Family Planning from the economic point of view. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, population is one of the great problems of our country. It has become a national problem today. To curb it partially the Government of India has encouraged family planning. I would in this connection congratulate our Government for having followed the national policy on family planning to slow down the growth of population in our State. It is to be noted that family planning does not mean total stoppage of population growth, but it is one of the means to improve the standard of living and economic conditions of the people. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, every citizen of a State wants to be economically better off. In order to achieve that, and also to accelerate the development work of the State for the economic well being of the people, this can only be done when population does not exceed. It is certainly a fact that a man having a large family cannot afford to maintain his family with a limited source of income. This happens mostly in rural areas where people are quite ignorant of family planning. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, most of the people in rural areas have enough land and means of livelihood. But still the people are living in poverty. This is because the number of family members is generally large and proportionately higher than income. It is mostly found that a poor man generally  has a large family specially in the rural areas. This is so because he still retains the belief that it is the will of God for man to be get children as many as possible and his responsibility increase with having to feed them, to bring them up and to give them proper education. But, Sir, some of the hon. Members have spoken about decrease of population in our State. But first we should remember that our country is India and we are Indians first. So we have to see from a national angle and not from State angle. Of course it is unwise to increase population for the sake of population without looking into the economic aspect of our State. The rights and privileges are safe guarded by the Constitution. So, Mr. Deputy, Speaker, Sir, Family Planning is very very important from the point of health in general and that of the mother in particular. It is therefore, necessary to have a planned family and to understand how it brings happiness and health to a family I would, therefore, request the Government through you, Sir, that Family Planning programme should be extended to rural areas and Family Planning Centres which should be established so that the rural people can be educated on its importance for the economic welfare and better standard of living. With these few words, Sir, I oppose this resolution and resume my seat. 

Shri H. Hadem : Mr. Deputy Speaker  Sir...........

Mr. Deputy Speaker : You have three minutes.

*Shri H. Hadem : (Mynso- Raliang S.T. ) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not want to take much time as it seems to me that the whole House will be taking part in this resolution and I think they ought to, because it is a very good resolution First of all I would like to say that I personally do not understand this Family Planning..........

(Interruption )

(Voices - "If you do not understand how can you support......") Whether I oppose or support it I will have to go through it to understand it. This morning I have been to the Police Bazar side and just near the Police Point I saw one advertisement and in that advertisement it was written like this : "Second child after 3 years and remember CAUTION when you have 2 that will do". So, Sir, this will lead to decrease of population because instead of having 10 children we will have only 2. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it has been declared by this House that it will fight against poverty, illiteracy and disease. But I do not understand Sir. What do you mean by fighting against disease?- to defend life to give survival but when instead of 10 children you will decrease to 2. I think it is up to you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. 

        Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to bring out the policy as can be seen in Volume III at page 2. We find that under Family Planning there is a provision of Rs.9,75,000/- altogether just for Family Planning. But for the Upkeep and Child Welfare we are having only Rs. 1,66,000/-. A huge amount, Sir, but it may not be for fighting all the diseases. There is a big difference of Rs. 8,09,00/- and, as I have said earlier, it seems that it is meant to reduce the growth of population. I have turned again to another provision which will be found at page 27 of this very same volume. The policy here is to decrease human life but there is yet another policy that is on Animal Husbandry for which a provision of Rs. 37,99.100/- has been made all for the increase of animal population (laughter). Sir, I think after 10 or 20 years that whole of our State will be the animal State and not human State (loud Laughter). Excuse me, Sir, for making all of you laugh. After all this is a very serious matter and by that time our grand-children would not dare to go outside because there will be many tigers, dogs, and every other kind of animals and we human beings will become very small in number. Moreover, Sir, it has been found that there is provision for animals and grants have been given for those people who keep more animals. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, those who will observe family planning method will be given grants for increasing the population, I cannot understand what is the meaning of all these. Last of all, it seems, as the hon. Member said, that this world has changed and there was an old saying, a very just saying that at the very beginning it was said that life of human beings should increase, they should multiply and become fruitful but according to these two schemes Sir, animal husbandry has increased instead because these promises or blessing have come to the animal kingdom, so they must increase and multiply in numbers. Excuse me Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, once I saw another picture, a signboard over there in which they advertised "until you want another child use Nirodh" (Laughter). In that picture, of that signboard, there are pictures of a father and a child with one glass-full of mild and that baby is taking milk. I cannot understand all these things, what is the meaning of that glass-full  of milk and all that (Bell rang). One minute more Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I say that this will be a subject of great controversy everywhere. Another story here in Shillong Sir, there is one pharmacy run by one Mr. Nirod Dey one day a young man called in there and said" I want Nirodh" but the owner of that pharmacy said "here I am " (Laughter) then that boy said nothing more and without getting anything wanted, he ran away. I do not know what it meant by that and by saving all these things. We cannot understand if family planning comes to our people, what will happen in its demonstration camps and other orientation camps. So I strongly oppose the family planning programmes and then I support this resolution since this will create not only a decrease of population but also it will create disaster to the whole population. With these few words I conclude my speech. 

*Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in supporting the Resolution that has been moved by the hon. Member, I rise to say that it has been a conception all over the world and particularly in India and it may be the policy of the Government here in our State that family planning means birth control and also means sports and games to the people who are doing those things (Laughter). So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government has never declared as to what is the policy of the State regarding family planning and I do not understand that wherever we return our face all around we will find that they are displaying in the signboards al these things. We have never heard of any declared policy of the Government about this. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the resolution before the House is that our State will utilise this family planning with large sums of money to be provided in any way not to practice birth control but for some other purpose like better care for mothers and upkeep of the children. So Sir, supporting this resolution, I hope the Government should instead adopt a policy of increasing the families in their family planning programmes and try to look after the new born babies and also help the mothers of large families. So Sir, I do not have any more to say, but I share with the mover of the resolution for the spirit that has been placed before this House because our population is very small in proportion as compared to other sections of people and in fact,  as tribal people, in a newly born State of ours, still need an increase of population. So Sir, increase of the population in our State must be allowed. Therefore, my suggestion is that Government should get help from the Central Government and see that grants are given at least to the families who have more than three children to maintain them and also to provide free medical aid to all the sick mothers and children of big families and also to increase the maternity centres in the State so that our new- born children will be healthy and we will thus get a healthy nation. So with these few words, I support the resolution moved by my hon. friend.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Now I close the discussion on this subject and I request the Minister in charge to reply.

*Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, am I not allowed to speak? I will take only a few minutes

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Alright you may speak only for one minute.

Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- Thank you very much Sir. I appreciate the spirit behind this resolution. But for me to give absolutely an unreserved support for this resolution. But for me to give absolutely an unreserved support for this resolution would be very very difficult. Sir, it mean that one has been fully convinced of the moral aspects of this question. I have not been able to apply my minds on the moral aspects of this question. That is the introduction of the physical advices for the control of population, even the Church, the Catholic church and other churches are divided on this question. I do not consider myself qualified enough to pronounce any judgment as to the merits of the case and the respective stand on this question. But Sir, I am absolutely in support of the resolution and I appeal that our population should increase. I say that family planning shall never be utilised for artificial control of birth in the State, then Sir, it means that I will oppose even all the spacing of children.

        Then I come to other aspect of Family Planning, I don't oppose it at this present juncture. Accordingly, this family planning has become a national question now-a-days that we cannot come to any understanding perhaps of the theological question. In future may be able to express this point very clearly on this controversy but for the time being, I do not support the spacing of children and if family planning can be well established to provide teaching to our people in this regard, I fully give my support on it. But we know Sir, there are many many cases of our people, as stated, because as hardly a first child will be only 8 or 9 or 10 months, only then they will be giving birth to another child. This is not a simply question or increasing population. It is the very question of keeping proper care to our children, proper training, providing teachings so that they can grow up, they can be good citizens of the State. So, this is the aspect of family planning that I have been supporting for the time being but Sir, I entirely endorse the views expressed by those hon. Members who have stated that our small tribal communities, our tribes will be extinct, if we do not take active measures to accelerate the pace of our population. But I don't go to extent of giving such suggestion because I am not qualified to give the advice. As far as family planning is concerned, I would certainly give an advice that it is the duty of the Government to check the rate of child mortality. Many people can give birth to a large number of defective and abnormal children but because of incidence of epidemics like cholera, malaria the rate of national mortality in the long run. These thing are common in the rural areas and therefore I consider Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is the duty of the Government to see that whatever children are given birth must be able to live, must be allowed to play a role for the advancement of the State. I may reminded this House, Sir, that although Meghalaya is biggest than the State of Israel, that Israel has go more than 2 millions of citizens and they are still wanting to increase their number because they fell that within the small population resources of the State cannot be fully developed, cannot be fully tapped but I believe Sir, with this small population in our State we will not be able to utilise all our resources and there will be not enough people to pay taxes to the Government in order that we may have enough capital to tap our resources. We have always came across people who say that our State of Meghalaya is not having qualified people. If we decreased our population we shall continue to face the same problem that we don't have enough people to man our industries, to run our administration and all that.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Now, the Minister to reply to the discussion.

*Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may of the hon. Members have spoken for and against family planning Generally speaking, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while taking part in this resolution, we may recall the statement made by the hon. Member from Mawhati. But Sir, I entirely differ from him even though I am not as eloquent as he is. I believe that at one time and I also feel that I am standing in the accused box. He even pronounced the word of 'Almighty' (Laughter) I think nobody can understand his intention from what he has spoken. It is a fact that our tongue may slip here and there but not intentionally as he has said suddenly, I was more confused more sacred also but it just escaped many sense of shock and he jumped to somewhere Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, another Member from the opposition has spoken about family planning quoting some verses from the Bible and all that and also the mover of the Resolution said that it is immoral as it involves oral issues. I would say Sir, that what is immoral is not always illegal.  Here I am a temporal man, I have to confine myself to the policy of the Government and that we cannot force any part of the State here to take resort to the control of births. It is upto the individual concerned, if he is willing or not willing to do. One great writer of Politics said ' Here will and not force is the basis of the State'. Here also 'Will and not force is the basis of family planning'. It is to be done voluntarily, not forcibly. Therefore, I would request the hon. Member who moved the resolution not to hesitate but should go  ahead (Loud Laughter). Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I must say that it is also the will, the will to live happily, the will to have sound health, the will to have limited member of children and the will to have all facilities of live. It is also a fact Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that if we resort to the objectives of the family planning actively, the individual concerned may have sufficient amenities of life, not to speak of health. His wife also will be in a healthy condition as well as the healthy condition of the family. You do not go to the extent that you should show the rules and regulations of the family planning by force. In this connection of having those contraceptives. I think it is his will. These are available in abundance in the open market. Just now, he has produced a picture of 'Nirodh', I don't know whether the hon. Member was given these things or has any experience about them (Laughter). 

Shri Humphrey Hadem : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may we clarify the fact that these things were sold there in Police Bazar and also in the Pharmacy from where I have got this information. Because Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, he said 'go ahead'.

(Bell rang)

Shri S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) : But I will just give you the idea behind family planning. One hon. Member has referred to these contraceptives sold in the shops and in the open market. 

(Bell rang)

Mr. Deputy Speaker : How many minutes more do you require?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) : 5 minutes more Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Is it the sense of the House that the sitting be extended by 5 minutes?

(Voices - yes, yes )

Shri Hoover Hynniewta : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on a point of clarification; five minutes will be for Minister but mover of the resolution also needs some minutes more to reply and it the sitting of the House is extended by 5 minutes only then the mover will not have time to reply. 

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we may sit up to 5-15.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Is it the sense of the House that the sitting be extended by 15 minutes. 

*Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I take now the theory of population by Malthus. According to this theory the growth of population increases in arithmetical proportion while the growth of production increases in geometrical proportion. Anyway some of the hon. Members have said the in our State, control of population is not necessary rather the population should be increased and they have put forward various reasons about the child and mother welfare, etc. But as I said earlier, this is the all India programme which is sponsored by the Government of India and the expenditure is met by the Central Government. It is an all India programme which aims at assisting and convicting the people the people to adopt family planning not only to curb the growth of population but to have good families. I believe each one of us being the father or head of the family, knows the difficulties of a big family; of course with the exception of a few. If we want to educate our children properly, if we want our wife to be healthy and strong and not to go to the hospital every now and then, we should plan our family. In our State of Meghalaya, we have not forced anybody to adopt family planning, though  of course, we send doctors and nurses of the Department to educated the people or to show films on family planning. I think it is for the good health of mothers and for the welfare of the child to avoid having so many children. Many of the hon. Members have spoken in favour of having a large number of children say 10 or 12 children in a family. But how many survive out of them only 2 or 3 children survive. So I think this is a relevant matter that will have to take into consideration by the Government of Meghalaya. It is no use producing so many children unless we can make them healthy and happy. Then Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, another hon. Member has pointed out that only a few thousands of rupees have been sanctioned or allocated for the child welfare. We have several other schemes included in the Maternity and Child Welfare Scheme. As there is need to look after the new born baby, the mother who has just delivered a child also needs after care. Therefore, in order to make mothers healthy it is good to give some sort of education to the people in the rural areas on the family planning programme and if it is acceptable to them, they do it and if it is not then they will not do it. I do not want to go into the details of everything but I think the husband will take his wife into confidence before undergoing for operation. With these words I would request the hon. Member to withdraw his resolution. 

Prof. M.N. Majaw : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Minister says that there is no compulsion, force or all sort of things but we still have Rs.1,00,000/- for sterilisation compensation whereas our people in the interior areas are poor and facing great hardships. The hon. Minister has not on the other hand given me a reply, the sterilisation part of the argument or spacing. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, sterilisation makes a man incapable to produce anything because a man who has got nothing cannot produce anything, spacing alone does not require for compensation. Rs. 1,00,000 have been earmarked for this programme of compensation for sterilisation. But Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a small matter but the main issue is the moral expect, I want to make it very clear that what God has created no man or any human agency on earth can take it away. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I totally reject that aspect of the Government reply and that orientation Camp for instruction of the people. Not only I oppose it but I refuse to withdraw my resolution on religious, tribal, moral and social grounds. 

Shri Blooming Shallam : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to raise a point of order. 

Shri Humphrey Hadem : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, raising a point of order should be ruled out. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Will the mover withdraw his resolution?

Prof. M.N. Majaw : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, even to the last breath of my life, I will not withdraw my resolution. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Now I put the question before the  House. The question is that "This Assembly recommends to the Government of  Meghalaya to declare with immediate effect that the Family Planning Department, its programmes and objections, shall never be utilised for the artificial control of birth in the State, but instead for the up- keep of new born infants and for special assistance to the mothers of large families."

        (House divided )

        The result of the division is-

        Ayes -9 and

        Noes- 28.

        The resolution is lost.    


Adjournment.

The House stands adjourned  till 9.00 a.m. on Friday, the 7th July, 1972.

R.T. RYMBAI,

Dated Shillong,

Secretary,

the 6th July, 1972.

Meghalaya Legislative Assembly.

******