Proceedings of the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly assembled at 10 a.m. on Wednesday the 28th June, 1972 in the Assembly Chamber, Shillong, with the Hon. Speaker in the Chair.

STARRED QUESTIONS

( To which oral replies were given)

Mr. Speaker :- Let us begin the business of the day by taking up Starred Question No. 16.

Dispensaries in Khasi Hills

Shri Stanlington David Khongwir asked :

*16. Will the Minister in-charge of Health be pleased to state -

 

(a) The number of Public Health Dispensaries (with their locations) in the Khasi Hills?

 

(b) Whether all these dispensaries are running with Doctors and sufficient and regular supply of medicines?

 

(c) If not, why not?

 

(d) Whether Government propose to establish more Public Health Dispensaries in the Khasi Hills during this current year?

 

(e) If so, how many?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister in-charge of Health) replied :

16.

(a) -25 (twenty-five). A list is placed on the Table of the House.

(b) -Yes, except at Nongkhlaw, Patharkhmah and Jirang Dispensaries. Necessary steps to fill up the vacancies are being taken.

 

Adequate medicines are supplied to all these dispensaries. There is no complaint about shortage.

(c) -Does not arise in view of the reply to (b) above.

(d) &(e) -The matter is being examined.

Shri Stanlington David Khongwir (Mawlai S.T.) :- Who are the persons responsible for the purchase of medicines?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Director of Health Services is responsible for the purchase of medicines.

Shri Stanlington David Khongwir :- May we know, Sir, how are these medicines delivered to the respective dispensaries in rural areas ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- The medicines are supplied to the dispensaries through the department agencies.

Shri Stanlington David Khongwir :-What are the possible criteria for establishing a dispensary in any village?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- There are many criteria for establishment of dispensaries and there are so many villages in rural areas which have not been covered by these health centres.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot (Nongstoin S.T.) :- Whether the dispensaries at Nongkhlaw and Patharkhmah have got Doctors and regular supplies of medicines?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- We have not received any complaint regarding supply of medicines.

Mr. Speaker :- It has already been replied that adequate medicines are supplied to all these dispensaries. There is no complaint about shortage.

Shri Winstone Syiemiong (Nongspung S.T.) :- Are the Government aware that only watery mixture medicines are supplied?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- We have not received any report so far.

Shri P. Ripple Kyndiah (Jaiaw S.T.) :- May I know whether in the matter of purchase of medicines the Director of Health Services is assisted by the Purchase Committee ?

Shri. Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a Purchase Board.

UNSTARRED QUESTION

(Replies to which were placed on the table)

Proposal for Water Supply Scheme in the Jaintia Hills

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna asked :

20. Will the Minister in-charge, P.W.D. (P.H. Engg.) be pleased to state -

 

(a) The name of the Water Supply Schemes propose to be taken up during the current financial year in the Jaintia Hills?

 

(b) What is the budget estimate for the schemes?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak [Minister of State, in-charge of P.W.D. (P.H. Engg.)] replied :

20. (a) & (b) -There is no fund under Plan Budget during the current year. Government propose to take up some new schemes outside the Plan but the allocation has not yet been received from Government of India and as such it is not possible to furnish the names of the schemes at this stage.

Shri Humphrey Hadem (Mynso- Raliang S.T.) :- Only one supplementary Sir. Is it a fact that Shangpung and Raliang Water Supply Schemes were scheduled to be taken up this year?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D.) :- This is under investigation.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- May I know whether the said damaged scheme has not been restored to its original position?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D.) :- You mean Muktapur Water Supply Scheme? I want notice, Sir.

Implementation of Water Supply Scheme in Jaintia Hills

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna asked :

21. Will the Minister in-charge, P.W.D. (P.H. Engg.) be pleased to state -

 

(a)  What are the Water Supply Schemes implemented in Jaintia Hills District during the last two years?

 

(b) Whether it is a fact that the supply of Muktapur Water Supply is irregular?

 

(c) Who is the contractor for the scheme?

 

(d) How much was spent for the Muktapur Water Supply Scheme?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak [Minister of State, P.W.D. (R. and B. etc.,)] replied :

21. (a) - The Water Supply Schemes implemented during the last two years are :-

 

1.

 Darrang Water Supply Scheme.

 

2.

Lamin Water Supply Scheme.

 

3.

Sohkha Water Supply Scheme.

 

4.

Nongbah Water Supply Scheme.

 

5.

Muktapur Water Supply Scheme.

 

6.

Jowai Water Supply Scheme which was originally executed and completed by P.W.D. but now handed over to P.H. Engg. The Special repair works of scheme is being taken up by P.H. Engg.

 
 

7.

Dawki Water Supply Scheme.

 

8.

Khonglah Water Supply Scheme.

 

9.

Padu. Water Supply Scheme.

 

10.

Rymbai Water Supply Scheme.

 

11.

Amjalong Water Supply Scheme.

 

12.

Amlarem Refugee Water Supply Scheme. and 

 

13

Amtrong Refugee Water Supply Scheme.

(b) -Yes, due to heavy shelling during Bangladesh conflict the distribution system was damaged and steps being taken to restore the regular flow of water after necessary repairs.

 

(c) -Shri Dengbui Tariang of Nongtalang village.

 

(d) -Rupees Fifty- five thousand, Nine hundred thirty- five and five paise was incurred upto the month of May, 1972.

Damage done by the Pakistani evacuees

Shri Stanlington D. Khongwir  asked :

22. Will the Minister-in-charge of Relief and Rehabilitation be pleased to state -

 

(a) Whether it is a fact that huge damage was caused to lands and properties of the Border people of Khasi Hills owing to the influx of Pakistani evacuees during the Bangladesh freedom movement?

 

(b) If so, have Government received complaints or claims of compensation for the damages?

 

(c) If answer to (b) above is in affirmative, how many such complains or claims have been received by Government to date what is the total amount involved in these claims?

 

(d) Are there officers who have been entrusted with making enquiries into these claims?

 

(e) If so, how many of such officers (with designations)?

 

(f) How many claims have so far been enquired into?

 

(g) What amount, if any, have Government paid to the claimants?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister in-charge of Relief and Rehabilitation) replied :

22.

(a) and (b) -Yes, petitions were received claiming for damages said to have been caused to lands and properties of the Border people of Khasi Hills owing to the influx of Pakistani evacuees during the Bangladesh freedom movement.

 

(c) -2,680 Petitions.

The amount involved is yet to be ascertained but the claim is of the order of Rupees three crores or so.

 

(d) -Yes.

 

(e) -1 (one) Camp Commandant and 4 (four) Assistant Camp Commandants.

 

(f) -Spot enquiries on 1,663 petitions have been completed so far.

 

(g) -No amount has been paid as the claims are still under investigation and a consolidated report is still under preparation by the officers, and also the Deputy Commissioner is yet to submit his report to the Government which will then take up with the Government of India for sanction.

Shri Stanlington David Khongwir :- No. 22 (f), are Government aware that further delay in spot enquiries would create more difficulties to the enquiry Officer?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Relief and Rehabilitation) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not a delay as the sport enquiry has been taken up in right earnest and we have only a few officers to do the job.

Shri Stanlington David Khongwir :- 22 (e), I see that the enquiring officers consist of 4 Assistant Camp Commandants. Whether Government opined that enquiries by these personnel are effective or not?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Relief and Rehabilitation) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, one Commandant and 4 Assistant Commandants are doing the job and that also is effective. There is no other officer here.

Shri Stanlington David Khongwir :- I see that out of 2,680 petitions only, 1,663 petitions have been completed for the sport enquiries. May we know what are the main difficulties encountered by the enquiring officers fro making these spot enquiries?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Relief and Rehabilitation) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I cannot fully understand what the hon. Member means by difficulties in spot enquiries.

Shri Stanlington David Khongwir :- Whether these spot enquiries conducted by these officers of the Government encountered any difficulty or not, - because out of 2,680 petitions only 1,663 have so far been completed?

Mr. Speaker :- Is there any difficulty confronting these officers to complete these sport enquiries. That is applicable in the Khasi Hills in the absence of records or land record and all that.

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Relief and Rehabilitation) :- They have definitely come across similar difficulties as clans were so many and they have to establish ownership and right over land, etc. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw (Mawhati S.T.) :- In view of the statement of the Minister just now that they will not be able to proceed with the work because of the shortage of staff, would not Government consider the possibilities of re-appointing some Assistant Commandants whose services have been retrenched suddenly?

Mr. Speaker :- That is a supplementary to a supplementary.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I have some approach at least to the answer since the Minister said that it is due to shortage of staff?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- As replied by Hon'ble Minister in-charge the main difficulty is because of the absence of proper records of right I do not see if by increasing the staff we can dispose of this matter expeditiously. However, this matter is under consideration of the Government.

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna (Nongtalang S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, why no officers have been deputed for enquiry of the petitions to Jaintia Hills?

Mr. Speaker :- The main question is about Khasi Hills. That is a new question.

Shri S.P. Swer (Sohra S.T.) :- May I know from the Minister in-charge whether there is any prescribed form supplied to the people making the petitions?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Relief and Rehabilitation) :- There is any prescribed form supplied to the people.

Shri Stanlington David Khongwir :- May we know what is the quantum of association of the Deputy Commissioner in all these enquiries?

Mr. Speaker :- The Deputy Commissioner is always in overall charge. 

Advance payment to the Contractors of Laskein and Raliang Roads

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna  asked :-

23. Will the Minister in-charge of P.W.D. (R. and B.) be pleased to state -

(a) Whether it is a fact that some of the contractors of Laskein-Barato Road and Raliang-Sahsniang Road have been paid with advance payment during the months of January and February, 1972. 

(b) If so, on whose recommendations the payment was made?

 

(c) What are the names of the contractors who got payment in advance and what is the amount paid to each of them?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak [Minister of State, P.W.D.)] replied. 

23.

(a) -Yes.

(b) -On the recommendations of S.D.O., P.W.D. concerned.

(c) -(i) Laskein-Barato Road.

Rs.

1.

Shri Nemtam Lato

...

...

...

...

6,500

2.

Shri Kein Ksih

...

...

...

....

27,000

3.

Shri Lovernet Pyrbot

...

...

...

...

7,500

4.

Shri Plir Paswett

...

...

...

...

15,000

5.

Shri Iang Pale

...

...

...

...

  8,000

6.

Shri Lonel Passah.

...

...

...

...

10,000

Total

...

74,000

(ii)

Raliang-Sahsniang Road.

1

Shri Noli Tariang

...

...

...

...

9,000

2.

Shri Pynbiang Tariang

...

...

...

...

10,000

Total

...

19,000

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Supplementary question to 23 (c), what is the total length of road allotted to the respective contractors  for construction?

Mr. Speaker :- That is not a supplementary. I think it should come in the form of an unstarred question because the Minister will not be able to reply off hand, about the length of all these roads.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh (Mawkyrwat Scheduled Tribes) :- Whether the roads for which money has been advanced to the contractors have been constructed?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D.) :- Execution of works will be completed shortly.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- May we understand, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that final bill has not yet been paid to the contractors?

Mr. Speaker :- If the work is not completed, how can Government pay to the contractors?

Implementation of new Civil Subdivision in Simsanggiri

Shri Choronsing Sangma  asked :

24. Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state -

(a) Whether Government have implemented the long promised new Civil Subdivision in Simsanggiri (Rongrenggiri)?

(b) If not, what are the reasons for delaying to implement the proposed Subdivision?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

24.

(a) -It is in the process of being implemented.

(b) -Delay is due to certain legal implication in the matter of taking over the land from the Nokmas concerned.

Shri Jackman Marak (Chokpot S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether Government propose to construct any buildings in Simsanggiri Subdivision?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would request the hon. Member to refer to my reply to question (b) wherein it is stated that the delay is due to certain legal implication in the matter of taking over the land from the Nokmas concerned. So, unless the land can be taken over how the construction can come up.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, how long will that "taking over of the land" take?

Mr. Speaker :- How can the Minister give a reply, supposing the Nokmas never give the land!

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- According to question 24 (a), it appears that it is a long promised Subdivision. So, when it is a long promised one, how long will it take to take over the lands?

Mr. Speaker :- The creation of a Subdivision had all been assured by the Chief Minister on the floor of the House time and again I would request the hon. Member to have confidence in the working of the Government Assurance Committee also and that Committee will see that the Government expedite matters in a manner that the House wants them to do.

Schemes taken up by the Department in the Districts

Shri Nimosh Sangma asked :

25. Will the Minister in-charge, Public Health Engineering be pleased to state -

(a) The number of schemes taken up by the Department in the District of :-

(i) Garo Hills, (ii) Khasi Hills and (iii) Jaintia Hills?

(b) How many water supply schemes have been completed in the different Districts of Meghalaya?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak [Minister of State, P.W.D. (R. and B. P.H.E., etc.)] replied:

25.

(a) -The water supply schemes taken up by the Department are as follows :-

(i) Garo Hills - (seven).

(ii) Khasi Hills - 17 (seventeen).

(iii) Jaintia Hills - 10 (ten). 

(b) -The water supply schemes already completed are as follows :-

(i) Garo Hills - 1 (one).

(ii) Khasi Hills - 14 (fourteen).

(iii) Jaintia Hills - 5 (five).

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- Supplementary question to 25 (a), will the Minister be pleased to state the names of these schemes?

Mr. Speaker :- The question will come in another form of unstarred question because it requires a long list.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- May we know what are the difficulties which stand in the way for the completion of the other six schemes in Garo Hills when only one scheme is completed?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D. ) :- Most of the funds were diverted for the Tura Water Supply scheme and due to paucity of funds the remaining schemes could not be completed.

Shri Winstone Syiemiong :- What is the basis in selecting the villages for water supply schemes?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D. ) :- That is done according to need.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Is Government contemplating taking up of new schemes in addition to these?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D. ) :- Yes, Sir, Government has received allocation outside the Plan from the Government of India. We expect to receive an amount of Rs.50 lakhs from the Government of India during this financial year.

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- For the benefit of the hon. Member, I may inform the House that we have discussed this with the Minister of Works and Housing, Government of India and out of the total amount of Rs.20 crores for the whole country, our State has been allocated Rs.50 lakhs and the programme of this 50 lakhs will be taken up soon. I have been also assured as I have informed the House that next year we are being assured with an additional amount of rupees one crore.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh (Pariong S.T.) :- May I know whether these schemes which have been mentioned here were taken up in one year?

Mr. Speaker :- I hope the hon. Member will understand the different schemes which have been taken up in different areas and I think the Minister will require notice for a reply.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- I want to know only the year. 

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D. ) :- In the year 1971-72.

Shri S.P. Swer :- Whether the completed schemes were maintained by the Department?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is a matter that has to be taken into consideration. In fact, in many places, after the water supply scheme has been completed, there is no proper agency to maintain the water supply in a particular place. So, we are thinking of having some sort of an agency, as for example, for Tura Water Supply, we have requested the District Council that they should take over the maintenance of the water supply scheme at Tura because we find that the Town Committee is too inadequate to take over the responsibility. Similarly, in different places, maintenance of water supply will be entrusted to the villages because once the scheme is completed they cannot shirk the responsibility of maintenance as it becomes a property of that particular village. 

Shri Stanlington David Khongwir :- May we know how many of these completed schemes are actually functioning?

Shri Grohonsing A. Marak (Minister of State, P.W.D. ) :- All of them are functioning.

Shri Blooming Shallam (Jowai S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it a fact that certain works of the new Water Supply Scheme in Jowai town have been completed?

Mr. Speaker :- Only one supplementary at a time. It should not be hypothetical.

Shri Blooming Shallam :- Whether certain work in the new Jowai Water Supply Scheme has been completed?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- It is nearly completed.

Shri Blooming Shallam :- May we understand that the Government is intending to start the construction this year itself?

Mr. Speaker :- You mean whether Government is intending to complete certain work this year?

Shri Blooming Shallam :- No, Sir, to start the construction work. When the survey work is nearing completion does it imply that the construction work is also taken up?

Mr. Speaker :- The question should not come in the form of an argument.

Shri Edward Kurbah (Sohiong S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether the water supply scheme is extended to the rural areas or not?

Mr. Speaker :- These are meant for the rural areas.

Modernising the Dairy Farming Industry

Shri Dhruba Nath Joshi asked :-

26. Will the Minister in-charge of Agriculture be pleased to state -

(a) Whether the Government proposes to modernise the Dairy Farming Industry in Meghalaya?

(b) If so, whether the Government proposes to create grazing reserves in the interiors where the graziers are carrying on their trade in an unscientific basis?

(c) Whether the Government has opened grazing reserves in the State?

(d) If so, where?

(e) If not, why not?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) replied :

26.

(a) -Yes.

(b) -No, in modern Dairy Industry creating grazing reserves is not required. It requires development of pasture land only.

(c) -No.

(d) -Does not arise.

(e) -Because this is not required as stated at (b) above. 

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh (Umroi S.T.) :- How many of Dairy Farming Industries are proposed to be modernised and where?

Mr. Speaker :- I will allow this question, but you must revise the supplementary. It should be what will be the number of Dairy Farming Industries that the Government proposes to take up?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) :- I want notice for that question.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Are there any Dairy Farming Industries existing in the State?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) :- There are Dairy Farming Industries but they are not modernised, that is why we are taking steps to modernise them. 

Shri H. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- May I know the names of these Dairy Farming Industries?

Mr. Speaker :- He has already said that he requires notice.

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna (Nongtalang S.T.) :- Whether it is a fact that Charing plant for the Jaintia Hills has been exchanged for the one at Jagi Road?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) :- Not to our knowledge, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Proposal of creating Sub divisional Officer

Shri Choronsing Sangma asked :

27. Will the Minister in-charge of Agriculture be pleased to state -

(a) Whether the Government proposes to create the post of Sub divisional Officer in the District Agriculture Department of Garo Hills?

(b) If so, when?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister in-charge of Agriculture, etc.) replied :

27.

(a) -No.

(b) -Does not arise.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Supplementary to Question (b) why?

Mr. Speaker :- When the Government does not want to propose, I take this question to be hypothetical.

Duties and functions of the Weights and Measures Department        

Shri Choronsing Sangma  asked :

28. Will the Minister in-charge of Agriculture be pleased to state -

(a) What are the duties and functions of the District Weights and Measures Department?

(b) How many staff are there in the District of Garo Hills?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) replied :

(a) -The District Inspector of Weights and Measures is the head of the District Office. The following are the technical and non-technical duties of the District Inspector -

A. Technical :

(a) to maintain the District Laboratory consisting of the following apparatus under Rule 5 (3) of the Weights and Measures Rules, 1960.

I. The Working Standards Balances.

II. The Working Standards Weights.

III. The Working Standards Length Measures.

IV. The Working Standards Capacity Measures

(b) Verification and Stamping of Weights and Measures.

(c) Collection of fees and other charges.

(d) Inspection.

(e) Submission of reports and returns.

(f) Safe custody of articles seized and detained in the course of his duty.

B. Non- Technical :

(g) Maintenance of proper accounts of the fees and other charges realised and such books and forms as may be specified by the Government.

(h) Prosecution.

(i) Performing the special duty of the Publicity Officer by educating the public in general in respect of the new system of Weights and Measures. For this purpose he had to visit each and every trading centre and give wide publicity to the masses. 

(j) Enforcement work.

(b) - One Inspector.

One Lower Division Assistant - cum- Typist.

On Manual Assistant.

On Chowkidar -cum- Peon.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Supplementary to Question (b), is the same strength provided for each district, Sir?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) :- Yes, the same strength is provided for each district.


Voting on Demands for Grants

Mr. Speaker :- Now let us pass on to item No. 2 in today's list of Business. May I request the Chief Minister to move Grant No. 8. 

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.9,40,100 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "18- Parliament, State, Union Territory Legislatures- B - State Legislature".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. Since there is no Cut Motion, I put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.9,40,100 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "18- Parliament, State, Union Territory Legislatures- B - State Legislature".

        The motion is adopted and the Grant is passed. May I request the Chief Minister to move Grant No. 9.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.3,94,200 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "18- Parliament, State/Union Territory Legislatures- C - Elections".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received one cut Motion standing in the names of Shri H.E. Pohshna and Shri F.K. Mawlot. 

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.3,94,200 under Grant No.9, Major Head "18- Parliament, State/Union Territory Legislatures- C - Elections", at page 38 of the Budget be reduced to Re.1. i.e.,  the amount of the whole demand of the Rs.3,94,200 do stand reduced to Re.1.

Mr. Speaker :- The Cut Motion is moved. As was done yesterday the main Mover will be given 5 minutes and the others 3 minutes.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- While moving this Cut Motion, I want to point out only one very very important point. I find that the Election Department is very very slow in preparing the Electoral Rolls and therefore, from our experience in the last election we find that many names could not be entered in the electoral roll. We always found that this Department is busy only during election time or only 6 to 8 months prior to the election. Therefore, I request the Chief Minister to clarify this point.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot (Nongstoin S.T.) :- While supporting the Cut Motion, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to point out as Mr. Pohshna has pointed out, that preparing of the Electoral Roll is very slow and at the same time, it was not done properly. In the last M.P. Election in some of the villages there were more names in the electoral rolls than in the last L.A. Election. Even the Headman or some villages are not included in the electoral roll. That is the defect of the Department. I want to make out one point Sir, that is those enumerators who have gone to the interior for preparation of the electoral rolls have not received their T.A. Bills up till now, that is since 1971. So in this regard, Sir, we would request the Government to take steps to pay them at an early date. 

Shri P.N. Choudhuri (Laban) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I take this opportunity to draw the attention of the Chief Minister about the functioning of this particular branch. The Election Department is meant for preparation of Electoral Roll and revision of........

Mr. Speaker :- To conduct the election.

Shri P.N. Choudhuri :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to speak particularly about the preparation of the electoral roll. Sir, in the last general election to this Assembly, we have found there was a large number of omissions and commissions in the electoral rolls. So far as omission is concerned, I would like to point out that large number of people eligible to be enrolled could not do so due to negligence and inefficiency of the Government. Many people eligible have been deprived of there fundamental right. Coming to the commission, I would like to point out that 8 names were still included in the electoral rolls.........

Mr. Speaker :- Please do not mention names in the House.

Shri Parsvanath Choudhury :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, my point is that the names of 8 persons are still found in the electoral roll in spite of the fact that these persons died between the year 1967 and 1970. I do not find any revision of electoral roll. Had there been any revision the names of these dead persons could not have found place in the electoral roll. Then coming, Sir, to enrolment there are many people eligible who applied for enrolment they were harassed in many ways and as such they could not get any scope for enrolment in spite of their best efforts. In this connection I would like to refer to one case of a Government servant. He went to the election office and applied for enrolment and appeared before the election officer but he was asked by them to produce the identity card. Next time he came with the identity card and he was asked how they can know whether he is the same person or not and in this way, Mr. Speaker, Sir, many eligible people have been deprived of their right to vote. The same thing also happened in the District Council election.

Mr. Speaker :- This is not the responsibility of this Government.

Shri Parsvanath Choudhury :- I mean the same office Sir.

Mr. Speaker :- This thing is answerable by the District Council.

Shri Parsvanath Choudhury :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, so far as the election is concerned the Government is entrusted with the work of conducting the elections, whether in the State Assembly or in the District Councils. Only the Municipal election is different. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the District Council election we have found that a large number of eligible names have been deleted from the electoral rolls.

Mr. Speaker :- The District Council out of their sweet will have accepted the electoral rolls prepared by the Government and this cannot be answered by the Chief Minister. It is to be answered by the District Council. You may raise only points relating to the General Election of the State Assemble.

Shri Parsvanath Choudhury :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I, my point is not whether the cost of preparation of the electoral rolls is meted out from the District Council funds or not. But my point is that enrolment of name was done by the same office. The same office or Department has been entrusted with the work of preparation of electoral rolls of the Assembly and District Council. 

Mr. Speaker :- Do you mean that the Government should ask the Election Department not to supply the electoral rolls to the District Council?

Shri P.N. Choudhury :- My point is that the Government is responsible for the omission and Commission. 

Mr. Speaker :- That is the same point.

Shri Parsvanath Choudhury :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, my point that names of person who have got requisite qualification for enrolment should not have been deleted. But how these officers and office staff of that particular office were satisfied that certain persons do not fulfill the qualification of being a voter.

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to intervene. I hope that the hon. Members of the House here are to discuss grant relating to election matters. I therefore would like to say that it is outside the scope because everything said or discussed must relate to a particular Grant.

Mr. Speaker :- So far as the elections are concerned before any body raising any point here, I think they should raise only really relevant points and should not raise points regarding the conduct of the elections as this is the primary duty of the Election Commission and the State Government has nothing to do. I think the point raised as to how to make the electoral rolls upto date must be answered by the Chief Minister.

Shri Jormanik Syiem (Mylliem S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think regarding the electoral rolls the political leaders are partly to be blamed for omission and deletion or incorrectness of names.

( Voices  No Sir, we are not opposed to that).

Mr. Speaker :- Everybody belongs to a party or a group and he has every right to give his opinion.

Shri Jormanik Syiem (Mylliem S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the electoral rolls were published it is the duty of everybody to go and see whether his name has been entered or correctly entered. If deleted, to see why deleted. Of course there may be some printing mistakes because electoral rolls were not printed here and even then after publication of the electoral rolls it is the duty of every voter to go and check. Failing which we are to blame ourselves.

Shri Plansing Marak (Kherapara S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, while opposing the Cut Motion, I would like to say that in the last General Election we were using the electoral rolls of 1961. As pointed out by my friends there were mistakes and anomalies in the electoral rolls of 1961.

Mr. Speaker :- There was no election in this year 1961.

Shri Plansing Marak :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in that year there was District Council election in Garo Hills. Mr. Speaker, Sir, when I asked for the reasons the Election Officer said that until more people are employed to correct the electoral rolls, we are going to use the 1961 electoral rolls for future elections and I have seen in those electoral rolls there are so many mistakes and anomalies. I am happy to know that a certain provision has been made available to the Election Department to do the work of correction of the electoral rolls and I hope that with this fund the Election Department will be able to correct the mistakes and anomalies in the electoral rolls and on this ground Mr. Speaker, Sir, I oppose the Cut Motion.

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I found in the electoral rolls for the Legislative Assembly elections that the names of dead persons are still appearing.

Mr. Speaker :- That is the same point. 

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like also like to know whether Government proposes to use the same electoral rolls in future? Mr. Speaker, Sir, another point is that how the people from far interior places can come to the Election Office here in Shillong to check their names in the electoral rolls?

Mr. Speaker :- The headmen are responsible.

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, no copy of the electoral rolls has been supplied to the headmen. So it is very difficult for the people from far away places to come to Shillong, and besides that these people have been asked to furnish witness in support of their claims. How can people from far away places do all these things. Mr. Speaker, Sir, these are some of the points which I would like to have clarification.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in support of the Cut Motion moved by the hon. Members, I just want to bring out one point. Conduct of election is to be done in accordance with the instructions of the Election Commission and we have seen that the Election Commission has given directions that Polling stations should be arrangement in such a way so that people can come easily. In the Last General Election here in our State, we found that the Election Department failed to do this and there are Polling stations where people have to come from 30 or 40 miles.

Mr. Speaker :- I understand the point of Mr. Lyngdoh and I have already stated that this is a matter falling within the purview of the Election Commission and the Department conduct the election purely under the direction of the Election Commission. As such we cannot really discuss what the Election Commission has done. But you may suggest to the Government to press the Election Commission that polling stations should be arranged in such a way that it will be easily accessible to the people.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- But the polling stations have been suggested or recommended by the Election Department here, and that is the usual practice. 

Mr. Speaker :- It appears that the Members have been pressing on the same point and as I have stated, the State Government only conduct the election under the direction of the Election Commission and this is purely the work of the Election Commission and not of the State Government.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, since the present electoral roll was passed by means of a crash scheme revision, as far as Jaintia Hills is concerned, I do not know whether the same policy has been followed in other districts of the State. I would, therefore, like to suggest that when this crash revision of the electoral roll has been passed it is high time to use it for the enrolment of the eligible persons and this should be taken up as soon as possible. I would request the Government that though it is not within the purview of the State Government to do so by moving the Election Commission to take the enumeration of voter house to house as soon as possible.

Shri Edward Kurbah :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to point out that in the present electoral roll, we find that some of the villages are not included.

Mr. Speaker :- That is the same point, Mr. Kurbah. Some of the villages have been omitted, some of the names of the people have been omitted and also that dead people were included in the list and the living were not in the list.

*Shri Stanlington David Khongwir :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to get a clarification with regard to the procedure of inclusion of the names of people in the electoral rolls. Last time before the General Election to the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly, about 100 people in my constituency in Mawlai went to the office of the Election Officer to get their names included in the electoral roll, and they were given with Forms costing 10 P. each. After that, Mr. Speaker, Sir, we took the trouble of taking the names of the people and filling up the forms but when we submitted to the Election office, we were told that an officer would be deputed for making enquiry. But later on we found that the officer did not do the work and instead requested the people to come personally to the office for physical verification of their names. We expressed the difficulty to him that it is not possible for all of them to come and spend the days, because almost all of the people are cultivators. In this way, Sir, hundred of people did not get a chance to exercise their right of franchise in the last General Election.

Mr. Speaker :- It is difficult to get their names listed. I think we have enough discussion on this. 

Shri Blooming Shallam :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the last General Election the Returning Officer and the officer of the election Department told the headmen in the villages to engage two or three persons as workers to carry the election materials to the polling stations and the expenses would be paid by the Officer at Rs.6 per day. 

Mr. Speaker :- I have ruled out that this is within the purview of the Election Commission which is an autonomous body and it does not fall within the purview of the State Government. What can the State Government do? It can do only at the request made by the Election Commission.

Shri Blooming Shallam :- My point is that the Government will move the Election Commission to see that payment is made in time as otherwise the headmen will not co-operate.

Mr. Speaker :- I would now request the Chief Minister to reply to the points raised.

*Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the first instance, I would like to inform the hon. Members that as per provisions of sub-section (2) 14 of the Assam Reorganisation (Meghalaya) Act, 1969, revision of electoral rolls in 1971 for constituencies comprised within the then Autonomous State of Meghalaya was done by the Government of Assam under the direction of the Election Commission of India. The Government of Meghalaya had nothing to do on this. A number of speakers have said about omission of names in the electoral rolls. On this, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to say that this has been done under the direction of the Government of Assam. It is true that before the general elections intensive revision of the electoral rolls is to be done, but as the hon. members are aware, at that time there was a huge influx of Bangladesh refugees. Therefore, it was thought that it would not be desirable to take up this intensive revision of the electoral rolls in the State, especially in the border area, while there was a huge influx of Bangladesh refugees. It was apprehended that by doing this, a number of foreigners might have been included in the electoral rolls. In order to prevent that only some revisions were made. With the coming into being of the State of Meghalaya with effect from the 21st January, preparation and revision of electoral rolls under sub-section (2) of section 21 of the Representation of the People Act, 1950 either intensively or summarily or partly intensively and partly summarily as the Election Commission of India may direct, will be taken up by the State in future. This will be done according to the direction of the Election Commission. 

        Mr. Maham Singh had made a reference tot he non-receipt of T.A. by the numerators. As I have stated, Mr. Speaker, Sir, this was still the responsibility of the Assam Government and the Election Department of this State Government has also brought this matter to the notice of the Government of Assam for making early payment of this T.A.

        Mr. Plansing Marak had also made a mention that the electoral roll of 1961 was used in the last General Elections. This is not a fact. The delimitation of constituencies is based on the census of 1971 and I think he must have misunderstood this. Now as far as the fixing of polling stations is concerned as pointed out by Mr. H. Lyngdoh I am very much aware of it and so also is Mr. Lyngdoh. Specially the leaders of the political parties and the sitting Members of the Assembly or the Parliament are jointly invited by the Election Officer where the draft proposal for polling stations are prepared for their comments and suggestions. Now they are also, as pointed out by Mr. Jormanik Syiem, to share the responsibility for the location of polling stations which has not been properly done. If some villages are left out, I take the responsibility to myself as the Leader of the Party. I did not avail of that opportunity myself, to suggest how the polling stations should be located. I used to send to my senior colleagues. We also request the village functionaries, like Laskarks, here Syiems and Dolois to give us the suggestion as to how these stations should be properly located for the convenience of the voters. In spite of that we have not been able avail of that opportunity to our advantage. I would like to make an appeal to the hon. Members that when there has been a lot of inconveniences for the voters because of not properly locating the polling stations let us take in future the responsibility jointly and help the Election Department.  

        With regard to the District Council, Mr. Speaker, Sir, since this particular demand for grant does not relate to the District Council matters' as I stated, I think it is outside the scope for discussion. As correctly pointed out, the primary responsibility for the conduct of elections to the District Council rests in the respective District Councils. But s discussed by Mr. Choudhury, the District Councils use to request the Election Department of this State to conduct elections on their behalf on payment of cost. But the primary responsibility is of the District Council. Since for the expenditure for conducting the election, no recurring grant has been provided in this particular grant, I am not prepared to reply to the observation made by Mr. Chowdhury. Now I am entirely and fully aware of a number of omissions of the eligible voters have been made in the electoral rolls though the previous electoral rolls have not been prepared by this Government. We regret for that and we have to see that in the future with the co-operation of the political leaders, we will be able to have a more accurate electorate rolls. I do not know the practice here, I know of my district. Somebody has suggested that these electoral rolls should be made available at the village level so that people may come and see whether correct entries have been made or there are omissions or not. In my district I have got about 50 Village Councils and also in the plain mouzas, we have mouzadars's offices. I think in Khasi Hills we have got Block offices, Syiem offices and that of Doloi and Sirdars. Generally, the draft electoral rolls are sent to these offices so that the villagers can come and see the concerned entries in the electoral rolls in the Election Department in the district level. I am definite about it that they send copies of the electoral rolls to the District Councils also and the District Councils, in turn, ask the Secretaries of the Village Councils to avail of this opportunity and to inform all the villages under this jurisdiction. We also used to instruct our party workers that they should take interest to bring the villagers whose names have been missing and to help the entries to be made. In spite of all these opportunities, unfortunately, as pointed out by the hon. Members, the electoral rolls, which have been used for various elections have been found to be inadequate. While the Department will take the initiative for correcting the defects in the future as per directions of the Election Commission, I would take this opportunity to make an earnest request to all the hon. Members here and the political parties that whenever such occasions arise in future for correcting the entries to see that the dead persons, whose names are entered in the electoral rolls can be deleted and those who are eligible may be entered in the electoral rolls. This, I think, is the joint responsibility for all. 

        With regard to the fixing up to the polling stations, I would make an appeal to all that we should, as political leaders of the people, take interest in locating the polling stations correctly. I know, in my own constituency, there are some villages which would have to go only 2 miles whereas we had to go through another polling stations which is at a distance of 10 miles. Therefore, it will be realised Mr. Speaker, Sir, that unless and until we extend the fullest co-operation to the Department which is entrusted to look after this work, I do not think that mere discussing on the floor of the House, we shall not be able to bring about the desired result. I can assure the hon. Members that with their co-operation whatever remedies are to be brought out, the Department will take the initiative and I hope with the co-operation of the political parties and the hon. Members of the House and the other leaders of the village agencies, in future it may be possible for us to bring about more correct electoral rolls and also in locating the polling stations properly. With these few words I would request the hon. Members to kindly withdraw the Cut Motion realising that this Department should function efficiently and effectively with the co-operation of all of us. 

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am satisfied with the assurances given by our Chief Minister by which also some responsibility has been given on the shoulders of the political leaders. We do not want to shrink this responsibility and since our co-operation is invited, at least a draft electoral roll should be supplied to the political leaders. With these few words I beg to withdraw my Cut Motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw the Cut motion? (voices - yes, yes). Then with leave of the House the Cut Motion is withdrawn. 

        Now I put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.3,94,200 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "18 Parliament, State/Union Territory Legislature-C- Elections." 

        The motion is carried. The demand is passed.

        May I now request the Chief Minister to move Grant No.10.

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.7,07,600, be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "19- General Administration-I Heads of States and Ministers." 

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received a Cut motion to be moved by Shri H. Hadem and Shri Maham Singh. I would request them to move the Cut motion.

Shri H. HADEM (Mynso- Raliang S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will not move the Cut motion.

Shri Maham Singh (Mawprem) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will not also move the Cut motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Now I put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.7,07,600, be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "19- General Administration-I Heads of States and Ministers." 

        The motion is carried and the demand is passed.

        Now may I request the Chief Minister to move Grant No. 11.

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.26,34,200, be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "19-General Administration- II- Secretariat and attached offices".

Mr. Speaker :- The motion is moved. I have received a Cut motion to be moved by Shri H. Hadem, Shri Maham Singh and Shri H.E. Pohshna. Will any of there move the Cut motion?

Shri Maham Singh (Mawprem) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.26,34,200, under Grant No.11, Major Head "19- General Administration-II- Secretariat and attached offices" at page 47 of the Budget be reduced to Rs.1., i.e., the amount of the whole demand of Rs.26,34,200, do stand reduced to Re.1.

Mr. Speaker :- The Cut motion is moved. I would request Shri Maham Singh to raise a general discussion on the Grant. 

Shri Maham Singh (Mawprem) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in moving my Cut motion I wish to say that at present we are aiming for a real Socialistic State of society. Mr. Speaker, Sir, during the discussion on Budget in the last few days, there have been remarks and general observation of the Members that in the administration we find three evils prevailing viz., inefficiency, corruption and delay in the execution of the works. Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I want to know is whether Government has really tried to find out the real cause for these three evils, i.e., inefficiency, corruption and also delay in the execution of the works. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to impress upon the Government that the real reason for this is due to the great dissatisfaction in the minds of many of the employees of the Government. We find in the scales of pay, there are some highly paid officers getting more than Rs.2,000 whereas the low paid employees of the Government are getting not more than Rs.200. In many cases the difference in pay is ten times between the low paid and highly paid employees. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is really a very big gap. We accordingly find that what happens is that most of these low paid employees become corrupt and we blame them. But they become corrupt because circumstances force them because they are always in great economic hardship. Due to the small amount of pay they get they are always in debt and it is extremely difficult for them to meet both ends. Their moral degradation is due to extreme poverty. Therefore, it has become very very necessary for the Government to revise their scales of pay or a policy may be adopted that the low paid employees should get some subsidy for essential commodities, otherwise they will always remain in extreme economic hardship. Mr. Speaker, Sir, they should be supplied with essential commodities at subsidised rates because the Government has not yet been able to maintain the price level of the commodities. Now every year we find prices of the commodities are rising, and for persons getting less than Rs.200 every increase of price is a great blow. The rise in prices of essential commodities goes up to the tune of 50 per cent in five years. Unless, the economic condition of the Government employees is improved, I think we will not be able to get a clean and efficient administration. Therefore, I would request the Government to appoint a Commission to go into the real causes of hardship of the employees and try to find out ways and means to improve their economic condition so that we may have a more clean and more efficient administration. With these few words I move this cut motion.

Shri Dlosingh Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in supporting this cut motion I would like to point out that in some Departments we have seen that some retired persons are also getting jobs. This is very disgusting for the young people who are still unemployed and also it is a blockade for the subordinate officers in respect of getting promotion and ultimately this will increase unemployment in our State.

*Shri Stanlington David Khongwir (Mawlai S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this cut motion and in this regard I would like to say only one thing that is with regard to unemployment. In the Budget Speech of the Finance Minister he has stated that unemployment has raised its head in our State also. So on the demand for this grant I would like to point out to the Hon'ble Chief Minister the defect of the single file system which has been adopted in the Secretariat level and this has greatly retarded the employment potential at least in the Secretariat. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to point out that in the Departments like Agriculture, Soil Conservation, Community Development and Veterinary there are only about 2 or 3 Assistants. In other Department like Tourism, Industries including Geology and Mining, Sericulture and Weaving and Labour, the Assistants there are only about 6 to 8 and in Departments like Revenue, Co-operation and Forest there are only about 2 to 3 dealing Assistants. I cannot understand, Sir, what is wrong with the old system that is still being followed in Departments directly under the Chief Secretary, e.g.,  S.A.D., G.A.D., etc. So, Sir, I do not know how this single file system has come to our State and what are the benefits of this new system because to me, Sir, it does not help in creating employment potential in our State. With these few words, Sir, I support the cut motion.

*Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also rise to support the cut motion and I would also like to point out, in addition to what the hon. Member from Mawlai has said, that this single file system was actually introduced to make the works move faster in the Departments, but, Sir, there is one important condition that has to be fulfilled and that is that there must be Cells like Finance Cell, Personnel Cell, etc., attached to the Secretary. That is how the single file system should work effectively but mere introduction of the single file system without setting up of cells is like putting the cart before the horse. Further, Sir, if you have the Secretary and the Director in one and the same person the single file system does not work very well because if the Secretaries or the Under-Secretaries were to make nothings on the same file, and if they have difference of opinion, with the Directors, they will feel reticent or hesitant to make nothings, especially if they are of confidential nature, and to submit the file which goes against the Director. This will cause some impediments, Sir, to say the least.

Mr. Speaker :- Then what is a better system?

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- The old system Sir, with some modifications. As a matter of fact, the old system is still being followed in Departments dealing in supply matters, granting of mining leases, etc. where the files are usually returned to the dealing Assistants because neither the Directors nor the Secretaries have the requisite back ground informations and so the file goes back to the Assistants. Now, Sir, it is high time that the Government take a decision on this matter so that it will not be too late to go back to the old system.

Mr. Speaker :- So you request the Government to turn back from the system to the old system.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Yes, with some modifications as this single file system has caused difficulties and unhappiness in some of the offices in the Secretariat.

        Now, Sir, I would also like to bring to the notice of the Government the notification issued in the Gazette of Meghalaya, dated 13th June, 1972, that the Political Department is setting up an Advisory Board for the maintenance of internal security. Now, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I fail to understand why we should have two persons from the Government of Assam to advise a Board in the Government of Meghalaya on a matter of internal security, why should a Vigilance Commissioner or an Advocate or Public Prosecutor of the Assam Government be encouraged to come to our State of Meghalaya as the two persons are from outside. Speaking on the same subject and with due respect, while acknowledging the fact that there are Secretaries and officers who are from outside and who are meant for our State and that their services cannot be changed, nonetheless it is a fact that there are a large number of our tribal officers who could have been appointed to the same posts particularly in view of the fact that many of the Ministers are new.

Mr. Speaker :- May I request the hon. Member to study the I.A.S. rules.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, but the problem here is that most of our Ministers are new to masters of administration and they have to rely, to a large extent, on the Secretaries many of whom do not know even a word of the tribal languages and do not belong here. So, Sir, we should try to substitute them by our tribal officers who are equally qualified.

Mr. Speaker :- Even in the United Kingdom a Private Secretary is described as the official wife of the Minister and the Secretary as the first son (laughter).

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, nowhere in the world or in any State a Home Secretary is appointed who is not a man of the place and I may say that our Home Department is being run by a person who does not belong here. Of course, I do not mean that by this to cast any reflection on the persons concerned.

Mr. Speaker :- Are you not from the same country?

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- I am speaking about National Governments or State Governments and in all Governments you have a Home Secretary who is a born natural citizen of the place who can better understand the people. Sir, we have fought for and got a separate State and so why should security and administration be under.....

Mr. Speaker :- How can the Government of India undermine the prestige of the State?

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is a matter of understanding otherwise we can remain with Assam. We are a separate class or community. That is why we fought for a separate State.

( Bell rang)

Mr. Speaker :- I will now give a chance to the hon. members on my right.

Shri Grosswell Mylliemngap (Sohryngkham S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, can I speak;

Mr. Speaker :- Yes.

Shri Grosswell Mylliemngap :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Government of Assam has now finally decided to shift the capital from Shillong to some other places in the Plains. Our people now working in the Assam Secretariat and other attached offices are very much unhappy because our Government cannot absorb them within a year or two. So, Sir, there is a great deal of discontentment at present and they are very much afraid lest they will also be shifted as stated by one of the hon. Member. Sir, I would like to bring to the notice of the Government that the single file system, adopted by the Government has retarded the employment potentiality of our State as stated earlier. In this connection, Sir, let me give an illustration with my fingers. Sir, the old system is like a triangle having a strong structure at the foundation whereas the new system is just the opposite of that.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Family Planning Triangle!

Shri Grosswell Mylliemngap :- The foundation of this triangle is very weak whereas the structure of the former triangle is very strong. Sir, I would like to draw the attention of the Government to this matter and we should start or make a strong foundation by absorbing more people at the base and then we may make smaller structure at the top. This is the policy by which we can absorb more people and this is the system by which we can also avoid wastage of man power, as it is at present, wastage of man power is uncountable and there is slackness in every department as it is at present. No work is expedited, nothing is available, the students are not getting the scholarships, the nurses are not getting their scholarships and so many other things which they used to get expeditiously and quickly during the time of the Assam Government. But now we find it is slackened and this is only because the Assam and Meghalaya Governments have not reached an agreement or not yet come to an agreement at all. So I request the Chief Minister to make a swift agreement very quickly and to see that the interest of our people who are suffering is looked into because these people have rendered their services either this way or that way, openly or unopenly in getting our full-fledged Statehood which we are having now.

Shri D.N. Joshi (Shillong Cantonment) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, while supporting the Cut Motion moved by my hon. friend here, I have certain observations to make in regard to corruption amongst the employees in the administration because of the financial position of the employees. I feel that there is a recommendation made by the Administrative Reforms Committee constituted by the Government of India that we are adopting to create a better society of our own and I hope we can curb the growing trend of corruption in the minds of our officers and staff in the Government services. As already pointed out by my friend, there is a big gap, the financial gap between the low paid Government servants and the highly paid Government servants. So in order to raised their financial position we must see that we raise their emolument.

Mr. Speaker :- You are repeating the same points. I think it is better to close the discussion on these points. The main issue involved here on the part of the mover of the motion is to bring about a socialistic pattern of society even in the administrative set up. That is the first point and the most important point raised by many others is to abandon the single file system but to follow the old file system with certain modifications. It is very very important that the Government of Meghalaya will come to an agreement with the Government of Assam regarding the position and conditions of service of the Government servants. These are vital points and the Chief Minister may take up.

Shri D.N. Joshi :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, we must give subsidy in the form of cheap ration to our low paid people so that they will be free from their anxieties and can make both ends meet.

Mr. Speaker :- As I said we have to close the discussion of this demand. But I request the hon. Member to see that we are not going to think in terms of one set of people to be affected by corruption. When the whole nation is honest, let us try to catch the culprits who are there in the Government services or who are politicians or businessmen or whatever avocations they take. We must find out the culprits who are corrupt.

Shri D.N. Joshi :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I fully associate myself with your feelings.

Mr. Speaker :- That is not my feeling, it is for the guidance of the House.

Shri D.N. Joshi :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is a question of raising the standard of living of the people and in order to eliminate poverty, we must evolve some formula and have a committee consisting of Members of different groups of the House so that we may put our heads together to evolve a formula, then we hope we can raise the economic position of our low paid Government servants. 

Mr. Speaker :- Can you point out to me how many Members of the House possess absolute honesty?

Shri D.N. Joshi :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, since the people have reposed their confidence in the members of this august House, I feel there is no corruption.

Mr. Speaker :- I request the hon. Member not to start with the problems of corruption and say that everybody is corrupt. If there is any culprit at all we will have to find out. Now I request the Chief Minister to reply.

*Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very grateful to the hon. Members who have moved the Cut Motion and those who supported it. This gives me an opportunity to reply to certain observations made by them. I am one with Shri Maham Singh when he said that we should bring about a Socialistic pattern of society for the whole country. But in this connection, I would request him to realise that this talk was there since a very very long time for the whole country. It is not only this particular Government, but also the Central Government and other State Governments throughout the whole country are wedded to that objective. But how to proceed to achieve that goal is the main question. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have come into being as a full-fledged State on the 21st January, 1972. This objective of building up a Socialistic pattern of society was also the anxiety of our Late beloved leader Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru and after that, this problem is being studied, I should say, by the Central Government and also by the State Governments as I have already stated. Though I cannot give a clear cut picture yet all I can say is that this Government will proceed towards the goal and I can assure you that we fall in line with the objectives of the rest of the country. I would expect the hon. Members from that side of this House to realise our goal in the concrete form taking into consideration the local conditions prevailing in the State, the customs and practices prevailing in the different parts of our State. How can we within the envelope of such conditions and atmosphere achieve our goal. It is no use for us without having some surveys and first hand knowledge that we should build a Socialistic pattern of society. The Government is trying its level best to find out ways and means to proceed towards that goal in a right direction. I would request the hon. Members to help the Government to come forward with understanding that the Government is proceeding towards the goal of socialistic pattern of society. They should impress upon the officers and staff and the people at large that the machinery is meant for the services of the people whom we represent. I think it will be wrong on my part if I would simply start to bring about this type of society in the Government. Mr. Speaker, Sir, thereby, I don't feel that whatever difficulties that are being faced by the officers and the staff at different levels, should not be paid due attention at the moment. But the Government, Mr. Speaker, Sir, should be primarily held responsible to bring about that Socialistic pattern of society amount the people of the different parts of our State. Mr. Speaker, Sir, while the old machinery are standing on our way, we shall not give up the idea to march towards the goal in the right direction and for this we have to follow up the programmes as will be initiated by the Government of India. We shall also try to learn to know the various programmes as may be initiated by the sister State. But it is not possible for me at this stage, Mr. Speaker, Sir, to give a concrete indication as to how this Government is going to proceed towards the goad and I have stated earlier that it is not only today but yesterday also there were certain suggestions while we were discussing about the transport subsidy and grants in-aid to the people from the border areas. But I can assure you that every facility will be extended by the Government. To implement this we have to split the schemes which were sanctioned by the Government of India since a long time. But as the Minister-in charge of Transport and Trade has stated earlier, I have also the responsibility of pursuing the Government of India to agree that transport cost should be subsidised to a considerable extent, so that at least some of the essential commodities which are the bare necessities of life, could be given at reasonable rates in the border areas. These are under the special schemes exclusively meant for the border areas for the development and upliftment of their standard of living. Thus, it is not possible for us to bring about a change and to bring in the low-paid Government servants under this scheme. But there is one way out Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will come to the suggestion that we should find out ways and means for lifting up the low-paid Government servants. I will consider every aspect as to how these low-paid Government servants could be given the essential commodities at a reasonable rate. These are the schemes which have to be thought of but we can not simply bring the people of different categories to be included in any particular scheme which is meant for a particular section of the community. I will examine whether the officers in the Secretariat and Directorates not only in Shillong but also in the districts could be provided with this facility. In fact I know in some districts, co-operative Societies have been organised. In Garo Hills, teachers serving in the Aided Government High English Schools have organised Co-operative Societies on a sound basis, keeping all the requirements in the buffer stock to be sold at reasonable rates, to the extent possible. So these possibilities will be examined and whenever the societies are properly organised Government will be prepared to consider these. Well Mr. Speaker, Sir, in order to fill up the gap in the schemes with the highly paid officer, it was suggested that we should have our own Pay Commission. In this connection, I would like to inform the hon. Members that our Pay Commission sometimes will add to the financial liability of the State. I do not know to what extent this Pay Commission will be able to bridge the gap. Only recently I had an opportunity accompanied by my colleague, Mr. B.B. Lyngdoh, Minister in-charge of Finance etc., to attend the National Development Council. We were seriously discussing to get additional finances for financing the Fifth Plan programme. A number of Chief Ministers had the occasion to observe how can we today find additional funds. We have tapped all our resources and we should not go for more taxation. There is a limit. But at the same time, in the proposal of the Finance Commission sponsored by the Government of India, there is an implication that the State should receive allocation from the limited financial resources. Well, Sir, there is a reflection that we should also fall in line with the decision of the Government of India. I would therefore request the hon. Members to have little patience and to consider this problem where there are limited resources at our disposal for which it will not be possible for us to improve the scale of pay of our low- paid servants, I do not say that we should not consider them but while we are thinking, about it, again we should also think about masses. Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw, made an observation about the economic condition of the poor people in the border areas. They are amongst the tribes and the section of the people who may be almost as backward as Lalungs. Even in my district, there are many arts which are still under-developed but they are not as backward as the Lalung areas of the Khasi Hills. My colleague, the Finance Minister in the course of his speech has been able to place before you the economic condition, the capacity of the people, and the per capita income. Thereby, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to suggest that these proposals of Mr. Maham Singh should be rejected. But at present, the first thing that has got to be done is that as far as the old services are concerned, we do not have any scope. They will be guided by the pay scale as fixed by the Government of India. Even if the revision of the pay-scale is made, is will be the responsibility of the Government of India. Our scope would be only to the State services, from the bottom to the highest stages under the State Services. At present we are yet to finalise the above position of our State services and also for filling them up and for taking the required personnel permanently from the Government of Assam who are not on deputation in various Departments, like Agriculture, Forest, Assam Civil Service Class I, and II and other categories of persons. Once we are in a position to finalise that, it may be desirable to take into consideration the financial position of the State and also the conditions prevailing in the State as a whole to see whether it would be possible to set up a Finance Commission. Once we decide that, it should not be only in name that we have appointed and because we have been asked to do so in response to the question in this House. Once we appoint it, the Government must be in a position to accommodate the various recommendations of the Commission. Mr. Speaker Sir, these are the factors which would be borne in mind. At present our officers and staff who have been taken on deputation form the Government of Assam are getting some additional benefits according to the award of the Pay Committee set up by the Assam Government. I think this has been mentioned by my colleague, the Finance Minister in the course of his speech. But the Government of Meghalaya is not keeping its eyes shut. When we have to take a number of officers and staff from the Government of Assam on deputation, number 1 difficulty was the office accommodation, number 2 those officers who do not have their own homes in Shillong and those who are in the rented house. We are finding out ways and means to help them. As accommodation is very very short and the residential quarters are still with Assam Government, it has been decided to give them house rent allowance. Therefore, this will give an indication that we are not shutting our eyes. We realise the difficulties and in a small way, we are tying to help them. In fact, there were certain repercussions and complaints why the employees of this new born State of Meghalaya should be given this allowance when it is not being given to the employees of Assam Government. We are to take this matter with the Government of India because after all, they are holding the permanent services under the Government of Assam while on deputation. Deputation question will not be there once we finally decide to absorb these officers and staff permanently. Since they are on deputation naturally the Government of Assam could say that why you give this additional benefit to them. We have to explain the above position- accommodation difficulties. etc. and the Government of India could agree to this. These are the indications that we are not neglecting the interest of our officers. Well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, a lot has been talked about the single file system. My colleague, the Finance Minister, in the course of his reply had occasion to inform the House that the Government has not finally decided that this system will be always followed. But before the Autonomous State of Meghalaya came into being the Administrative Reforms Committee of the Ministries of Home Affairs had occasion to visit Shillong and this particular Committee thought that since a new State is coming into being what is being considered to be economic and more efficient system may be tried in this particular State. I know this system is not practiced in all the Ministers and Departments in the Government of India also. Only certain Ministries have followed this system Mr. Majaw had the occasion to say that while in certain Departments this system is allowed to be followed, it is not being followed in the Chief Secretary's Department and in some other Departments. To that, my reply is this. Even in the Government of India though this system has been allowed to be practiced, and followed in certain Ministries, this system is not followed. In all the Ministries, this is being followed on an experimental basis. I have also said that the Secretariat Committee has been asked to go into this question based on the performance of various departments in the past to come forward with a suggestion on what improvement or modifications can be brought about or whether it would not at all be desirable for us to continue this system. Mr. Majaw himself has not advocated to do away with the system. He said that this may be continued with certain modifications and adjustment.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Mr. Speaker,  Sir, that is not correct. What I said is to go back to the old system with certain modifications.

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- If some modifications are to be made to the old system, the same thing can be done to the new system also. 

        Mr. Mylliemngap while referring to this particular system thought that this system has limited scope of employment and he has suggested that this system should be done away with in view of the fact that quite a large number of Meghalayans are serving under the Government of Assam who will have to be shifted to the plains on shifting of the capital. It may be true but if we follow the old system there may be limited scope to absorb almost all of these employees. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to make it very clear if we switch over to the old system I do not know whether it is possible for this Government, this shall state with three districts to absorb all the personnel who are still with the Government of Assam. I would like to draw the attention of all the hon. Members to this and to realise the primary responsibility of removing various difficulties which will have to be faced by these Meghalayans when they are to shift to Gauhati. Not to speak about their accommodation or about the language difficulties they are to face. The primary responsibility is there. But we have also moral obligation. Therefore we are trying to explore ways and means as I have said. But it is not by switching over to the old system of file that we would be able to create opportunities for us to accommodate these people. We are tying to explore every possibility. As all the hon. Members are aware the Headquarters of the North Eastern Council will be located here in Shillong. I have already contacted the Home Ministry of Government of India stating the facts that along with shifting of the capital a large number of Meghalayan employees of the Assam Government who are tribals have to go down to plains and because of the language difficulties these people are going to become overnight illiterate or not to speak of their accommodation. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, we must try to create avenues for their absorption. I have taken up this matter with the Defence Ministry and the proposal is that the office of the Controller of Defence Accounts will be located here in Shillong. The proposal is there already but for want of accommodation it could not be started and I was assured that 500 of these employees will be absorbed in these offices apart from officers. I was also assured that all these people affected will be fitted in. I was assured that if those people are found qualified to man the various responsibilities of different categories about 50 per cent of these people will be absorbed and for this purpose Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is necessary to give these people training and this will help them very much. The Government has also requested the Government of India that as far as possible these unfortunate employees of the Government of Assam who will be forced to go down to Gauhati should be absorbed in various Central Government offices, in A.G. or P. & T. offices. This we are trying and we consider it our moral obligation. But, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it will be too much if to accept the opinion that we have asked for creation of a Separate Hill State and when we have achieved it to absorb all these people who are now serving in the Assam Government. We must also think of creating employment opportunities to educated unemployed people. If today we try to absorb all the persons serving under the Government of Assam, this will conflict with the argument put forward by Mr. Dlosing Lyngdoh in which he had the occasion to blame the Government for employing retired personnel who have blocked the doors for new entrants. This is why, Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have as a matter of principle, decided that a certain percentage of the vacancies in the Meghalaya set up should be filled in by serving incumbent and a certain percentage from direct recruitment. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Members have also occasion to emphasise the need to accommodate the retrenched personnel of R.R. Department. Now these are the problems we are facing. A number of suggestions are coming a please try to accommodate the retrenched personnel, to accommodate all the personnel who are going to be shifted to Gauhati and also give appointment to the educated unemployed people. However, the Government is fully aware of this problem and we shall see how best this Government can do because of its moral obligation to help these people. But Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to make it very very clear that by changing of life system whether the Government can solve this particular problem. Well Mr. Majaw also has suggested that it is the practice elsewhere in other States of the country that the Home Secretary is the son of the soil. I cannot agree to this and it is not correct to say that in every State the son of the soil or a citizen or a particular State should be appointed as Home Secretary. In this connection, Mr. Speaker, Sir, through you, I would appeal to the hon. members to consider the fact how we got a State of our own in a big country like India. We have to look forward for all the help, for all the good-will of the country as a whole. If you take that particular attitude, Sir, I do not know what good- will we will get. I would make a little indulgence on this, Sir that, the gentlemen who suggested this proposal, has had the occasion a number of time to go to Delhi with us in the past where he was vigorously initiating for the creation of a separate State. We had to go all the leaders of different political parties and he has contributed to the good-will we have received from different sections both from politicians and also from the officials of different Ministries. It is not only by our own efforts, it is because of the good- will which came without any reservation from the leaders of the country as a whole that we have been able to enjoy and get a State of our own. If we in particular State only appoint the sons of the soil as Home Secretary and also fill up all vacancies, apart from the post of Home Secretary, the question arises whether we can get the right persons to man the right posts. If we take that attitude, Sir I do not know whether we can continue to get that good will or blessing which we have received. So, through you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I request the hon. members to consider this question very very carefully as this is a very important thing.  

        Again, Mr. Speaker, Sir, Mr. Majaw has made a complaint about internal security. Here also he complained that outsiders have been taken and why not Meghalayans. Here also I may say that it is similar that we should consider it very very carefully before we take that attitude. In fact, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will not go further as I have not got detailed information about it. Whatever it is, there is much talk about corruption of the officers and staff. Well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I cannot agree with the remarks of Mr. Majaw that all the officers and staffs are corrupt. It is too much an allegation and I would not agree to that. Of course there would be a few of them but at the same time, I cannot agree to the suggestion that if you raise the pay of the lower staff, they will have an occasion to correct themselves. It is a human tendency that the more you get, the more you want. But we must be able to correct ourselves. So we must see that we must be able to bring about a change of outlook. We must be able to make the people realise that we are here in this particular machinery not only to serve our own interests, but primarily to serve the people. We could not have asked for a State which is devoid of population, but we have asked for a State to serve the people. It is only with that conviction and desire if we compare our status, our earnings with the earnings of the masses and the starving population, then all will be changed.

        Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very grateful to the hon. members who brought all these points, but I am aware of the responsibility of the Government. The Government machinery should be such that it will be in a position to do effectively with efficiency and to render service to the people. Government plans and programmes should be aimed towards achievement of a socialist pattern of society for the benefit of the masses. I hope, Mr. Speaker, Sir, with the active co-operation of the hon. Members in this House and the people outside we shall be able to do something towards the benefit of the Government servants. With these observations I would request the hon. Member to withdraw his cut motion.

Shri Maham Singh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, from what the Chief Minister has said, do we get an assurance that at least Government will do something to go into the question of the hardships of the low paid employees?

Mr. Speaker :- He has already assured.

Shri Maham Singh :- In that case I withdraw my cut motion, Sir.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. Members leave of the House to withdraw his cut motion? (Voices - yes, yes).

        The Cut motion is with leave of the House withdrawn.

        Now I put the question before the House. the question is that an amount of Rs.26,34,200, be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "19- General Administration- II- Secretariat and attached officers" be passed. 

        The motion is adopted and the grant is passed

        I would now request the Chief Minister to move grant No. 12.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.14,51,100, be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "19- General Administration- III- Commissioners and District Administration".

Mr. Speaker :- The motion is moved. I have received one cut motion standing in the name of Shri Enowell Pohshna.

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna :-  Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.14,51,100 under Grant No.12, Major Head "19- General Administration- III- Commissioners and District Administration", at page 55 of the Budget be reduced to Rs.1, i.e.,  the amount of the whole demand of Rs.14,51,100, do stand reduced to Re.1. 

Mr. Speaker :- The cut motion is moved.

Shri H.E. Pohshna (Nongtalang S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, while moving this cut motion and having just heard the speech of the Chief Minister in reply tot he previous cut motion I regret I could not get the chance to discuss otherwise I would not have moved the cut motion. In view of the fact that some points have not been touched by our Chief Minister I have to move this motion. Sir this grant is very very important; it relates to the general administration and district administration policy. And I would like to stress my motion only on one important subject that is district administration. Although our Chief Minister has said that we should not expect that by getting a State all the employees should be Meghalayans but at least if we are to be liberal at least we should be liberal first to our own people specially at the district administration. I would request the Government to see that some steps are taken in order to absorb the tribal employees now with Assam Government and also to appoint the educated un-employed youth in the district administration. Sir, district administration is a very very important administration which has to deal with our local people according to our own custom and dialects. But in the districts of Garo Hills, Khasi Hills and Jaintia Hills at least we expect that the staff in the district level should be tribals. There is a cry amongst the Garo educated youth seeking for employment and there is a cry from everybody. So Sir, while listening to the speech of the Chief Minister I remember that he is the real leader and real hero in the creation of the State and I hope that district administration should not be neglected by him. 

        Secondly, Sir, I come to the very important question that has been left out or forgotten or neglected, that is Jaintia Hills district. Here is a very big look. It contains so many pages, so many blanks and so many volumes and I do not see that amounts for the very head of expenditure are entered. Here according to the notification that has been declared legally at Jowai, Jaintia Hills has been declared Jaintia Hills district. But Sir, if we read in every Head say in Agriculture Department, there is no provision for the District Agricultural Officer, in Industries Department there is no provision for the District Industries Officer and then in Excise Department there is no provision for the Superintendent in the District. 

Mr. Speaker :- But about the provision it appears that for these expenditures to be incurred, let us say for District Agriculture or any other, it will come under separate Heads and I think this is a normal administration.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- Since we are very reasonable I would request you not to defend the Government very much....(laughter)

Mr. Speaker :- It is not my duty to defend the Government but it is my duty to protect the interest of all the hon. Members. But sometimes when the hon. Member drifts along in a different direction I have to bring him to a correct direction.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- So that the ball should not go outside. Now Sir, Jaintia Hills District has been created as I have said but there is no provision in the budget for district administration. But as stated the provision in the budget reveals the policy of the Government in this work. Sir, the attainment of the Meghalaya State is the greatest achievement of the greatest ambition of the Hills people and for the Jaintia people however small it is the creation of the civil district is also the greatest achievement. Sir, since the map has been drawn which has included the Jaintia Hills district it should not go outside the budget grant. I know, Sir, our Chief Minister is the business man : he is a very hard working, sometimes he had to fly to Delhi and sometimes to do this and that. But at least I request him not to forget Jaintia Hills which is the border area. At the same time, I would express through you while moving this cut motion that the entire policy in this respect appears to be doubted in their attitude towards Jaintia Hills. Even the name should not be Jowai Hills District which is used to be called by the Assam Government but it should be the "Jaintia Hills District" which has been upgraded from the Autonomous District to Civil District by this very Government. 

Mr. Speaker :- So it is no longer an Autonomous District also?

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- Both Sir, since this is the budget for the Autonomous District, it is not the budget for the District. After the assurance of the Chief Minister, let me express it in a most extreme view, that is, I request the Chief Minister not to invite undue demands because according to this budget it is like an invitation for the creation of another Meghalaya State to Jaintia Hills which I do not like at the moment and I do want that the Chief Minister should invite such feelings because if some people may hear my speech here and they may put these questions before them. There is no District Agricultural Officer? Yes, it is correct. There is no Superintendent of Police ? Yes, it is correct. There is no District Industries Officer ?  Yes, it is correct.  And for everything we have to go to Shillong. One of the hon. Members of Jowai who belongs to the ruling party happens to be a member of the Selection Board. So at present Jaintia Hills has not been created as a separate district because every appointments to the Deputy Commissioner's Office, people of Shillong Office will have to be sent to Jowai office. This shows that the district has not been implemented. Before I take my seat I would request the Chief Minister to clarify the above facts in this House and to consider this Budget allotment for Jaintia Hills district. Steps should be taken that another supplementary budget be made for Jaintia Hills district. 

Shri Humphrey Hadem (Mynso- Raliang S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in supporting the cut motion I have to say that I have also submitted a cut motion on this grant but I do not know why my name was not included in the list. Anyhow, since I am given the opportunity of supporting the cut motion, it amounts to the same thing; and I will not take much time, but will come to one particular point only and also regarding one particular district, I mean Jaintia Hills District.

Mr. Speaker :- That the district will be equipped with all the machineries?

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Exactly so, Mr. Speaker, Sir, which I would like the House to recall above its creation some time on the 22nd February, 1972. This district emerged from a declaration made some time by the Chief Minister in one of his speeches in a public meeting at Jowai, stating that the Subdivision will be converted into a District Administration which will be a new year's present to the people of Jaintia Hills. It would be unfair, Sir, that we the Jaintia people will have to complain against, a "Present" given to us; but it is also on the part of the giver to make it gratefully acceptable and not in a form of the district as it is at present. The present State of affairs in our district, Sir, reminds me of a story in the Aesop's Fables about a jackal which one day went to a shop and found so many beautiful masks or heads which we called in Khasi "Dur Bula". But when he took one into his hand, it did not have any weight as it did not contain anything. Our district administration in Jaintia Hills, as it is at present, is the every resemblance of that story. We are having now the Deputy Commissioner as the head of the District and no other District Officers. The Sub divisional Officer has been taken back to Shillong and in lieu of same, we have been given the Deputy Commissioner. Other than this we have been given from of a District administration. As such, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to stress upon the Government to fully man our District administration with all the equipments necessary for a District. I shall narrate in detail, Sir, when the cut motions on Administration of Justice, police, etc., will be discussed and you will then learn how the arrangement for judiciary, police, etc., had so far been made for our District. 

        In the midnight of the 21st January, 1972 our State came into being and from that midnight, Sir, appointment were made for everything necessary for running the proper administration of a State. But since the 22nd February, i.e. on the eve of the General Election, Jaintia Hills District was characterised as a separate District. And it seems that because the Election result was out not according to someone's expectation, so we were placed in a different state of affairs. If Rome can not be built in a day, at least a temporary arrangement should be made. So I would request the Government that the so-termed "Present" to the people of Jaintia should be an acceptable one, yes- to the fullest satisfaction the recipients. Rather I would request the Government to make it worth memorable. So, the District administration of which we shall be fully gratified would be, if the Government take earlier steps by posting the District officers to man all the departments. With these few words, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support the cut motion.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh (Mawkyrwat S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in supporting the cut motion under Sub-head- E- District Administration, Grant No.12. I would like to point out that there are so many officers employed in the District Administration. But in the office of the S.D.C., i.e., Sub- Deputy Collector, there are only a few officers who never complete their duties properly. I do not know whether it is the policy of the Government to have few S.D.Cs. I will refer to the cases of compensation. There are so many cases which are lying there for years together to be disposed of. It seems Government is aware of it but no action has so far been taken in that direction.

        Now under the same grant I would like to draw the attention of the Government to the state of affairs in the Shillong Treasury and I would request the Government to look into this matter. It has been observed that the staff of the Treasury take weeks to pass a bill and it has put the villagers into great difficulty when they come to collect their bills for pay, etc., like school teachers, etc. So I would request the Government that they should look into the matter and fix a target date to get the bills passed, I mean, there should be such arrangement that bills submitted should be cleared within specific time. 

        Now, I would like to point out another thing, that is, the land acquisition matter is mainly done by the P.W.D. So there should be one S.D.C. in each P.W.D. Division to help in disposing of land acquisition. With these few words I support the cut motion.  

*Shri D.D. Lapang :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, while participating in the discussion I would like to point our one thing, i.e. one draw back prevailing in case of those District officers posted in the District who do not know the local languages of our people. So I would request the Government that in the matter of appointment of District Officers such as Deputy Commissioners, Sub-Deputy collectors Extension Officers who are supposed to deal with the public, to see that these officers should try to learn the local language so that the people need not come through channel rather they will be able to go direct.

        Now I would like to point out another thing, i.e., the appointment of clerical staff in the District offices. I would suggest that preference should be given to the local people of the District for such appointment instead of posting directly from Shillong. We have seen in some offices at Nongpoh even for the post of peon or any other Gr. IV staff people are being posted from Shillong. So, I would request the Government to take these aspects into consideration. With these few words I support the cut motion. 

Shri H.S. Lyngdoh (Pariong S.T.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the cut motion and in doing so I want to discuss only one item which relates to this District administration. Some time in 1964, the Government declared to constitute a Civil Sub-division at Nongstoin. Repeatedly our Government also assured that there would be a Civil Subdivision at Nongstoin very soon. Since 4 or 5 years ago one administrative officer was posted there to assess the requirement of the proposed Subdivision. But the said officer had nothing to do for all those years. Everything in connection with the administration in the western area of the District, that is Nongstoin area, has been dealt with directly from Shillong. So it was the only duty of that officer to go up and down between Shillong and Nongstoin.

        Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is another office i.e., the P.W.D. Division which was established some 2 years ago. But the people who are working under this P.W.D. Division had been complaining that the Government did not provide them with quarters and many other facilities. There are lots of complaints. Now the Chief Minister has expressed before the House that the people there are not co-operative. But it is not a fact that the people are not co-operative but no sincere attempt was made from the Government side to convert the scheme into reality.

        Now as regards the proposed Subdivision at Nongstoin, I would request the Government to start works immediately. I understand that land has been acquired from the Nongstoin Syiemship.

Mr. Speaker :- Now, the Chief Minister will reply in the afternoon. The House stands adjourned till 2. p.m. 

        The House resumed its sitting at 2. p.m. with the Deputy Speaker in the Chair. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Now let us resume our business and I request Chief Minister to give his reply.

*Capt. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the first instance I would like to request all the hon. Members to realise that the attainment of statehood does not automatically change the economic and social status of the people of Meghalaya. As I have said earlier, it only means to serve our people in a way which will help them to progress economically and socially. Mr. Pohshna, while moving the cut motion, has complained that the creation of the civil District of Jaintia Hills did not mean much and, as correctly pointed out by him the Jaintia Hills District also cannot expect that with the attainment of a civil District the economic and social structure of the District and its people will undergo a change automatically. I must make it clear that it is with the intention to help the people to come nearer to the administration and also in order to enable the people to have more adequate attention in the matter of development that the Government has decided to create a Civil District of Jaintia Hills. It has been complained that with the creation of the separate Civil District all the heads of the Departments should have been appointed and on the same day the notifications issued as it was done in the case of the inauguration of the full State of Meghalaya at mid-night of 21st January. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I may point out the correct position with regard to the notifications alleged to have been issued for appointing all the officers for the full-fledged State of Meghalaya at dead of night. Prior to becoming a full State, Meghalaya at dead of night. Prior to becoming a full State, Meghalaya was an Autonomous State and whatever officers and heads had been in existence, while it was still an Autonomous State, had to be notified as Departments and Officers of the full State. Therefore, it will not be correct to presume that while it was done in the case of the full-fledged State that it has not been done in the case of the creation  of the Civil District.

        Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I have said before, the Government is very clear in its objectives and may I repeat, Sir, that we want the people of that district to come nearer to the administration in a more effective way and that is why the Government has decided to create a separate Civil District for Jaintia Hills. I think Mr. Pohshna and Mr. Hadem and also my colleagues, Mr. Bareh and Mr. Shallam ought to have been happy about it as we are happy about it, that a decision had been made by the Government to meet the aspirations of the people which was awaited for a long long time. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I said before, the second objective was to use this as a means for increasing the tempo of development of that area. Naturally it will be expected that the necessary officers and staff will be entertained to man the Departments in the newly created district. I entirely agree with the hon. Members that it should be done but as a phased programme, and, while regarding this objective as a means of increasing the tempo of development we must also examine the work load for each Department. However, in spite of the best desire of this House as a whole, it may not be possible for us to increase the tempo of development as the fund at our disposal is limited. Everything will depend on that. That is why some sort of examination should be done before we try to man the various Departments with necessary officers and staff. In this connection, may I, with your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, give an example for consideration of the hon. Members who have moved the cut motion. Let us take, for example, the Forest Administration whether it would be economic and desirable to open a separate Divisional Forest Office for Jaintia Hills District because most of the forests other than the reserve forest are within the purview of the District Council. The State Forest Department is changed with the administration of the reserve forests alone and although I do not get the recommendation from my colleague, instead of entertaining this particular office for a limited scope of activity, the money that would have been spent, is better to be diverted for some developmental activity, irrespective of whether my friends in the opposite will insist upon the Government whether the work load justifies or not for the appointment of Divisional Forest Officer but because of the prestige. But let us be practical. What for we have asked for a separate State for this area and what for my friends from the previous Jowai Subdivision have asked for a separate Civil District? As I pointed out Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is done with the objective of bringing the people nearer to the administration and also with the objective of increasing the tempo of development. There is scope for development though it differs in degree according to the present conditions.

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may we know from the Chief Minister whether this time the office of the Divisional Forest Officer is going to be shifted to Jowai where there are more reserve forests and more forest wealth?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Well, that is the information I am getting from the hon. Member. But in accordance with the policy if it is really that in the newly created Jaintia Hills district there is more scope and there will be more justification for the post of Divisional Forest Officer than in the Khasi Hills naturally in line with that policy, that question will be examined. But I would expect the hon. Mover and his supporters to fall in line with the Government on this issue. 

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the information of the Chief Minister, here in this District Council i.e., the United Khasi Jaintia Hills they are having the Chief Forest Officer but there we are having the Divisional Forest Officer. 

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, I am not concerned with the policy as laid done by the District Council. I am concerned with the policy of the State Government. It is only in a newly- created district that whenever any department finds that the volume of the programmes in a particular field cannot be effectively and administratively supervised, there is always a proposal to create new post. Now, there has been a pressure that within the State of Meghalaya in some subdivisions or in some districts, the post of a Joint Director of Agriculture should be created and that proposal can be examined only on the basis of the volume of work expected to be taken up. And in this also I would like to inform the hon. Members, through you, that within the Fourth Plan period our hands are tied. Whatever Plan allocations have been approved after the State of Meghalaya has been bifurcated from Assam, we are to put our schemes within that limit. But I think the hon. Members are aware of the fact that this Government is not sleeping; we are trying to get additional allocation, additional Plan allocations. I had the occasion to inform the House that as against the total allocation of Rs.12 lakhs or so - I will correct the figures - have tried to persuade the Government of India to make additional amount available for us. And if I am correct, we have been able to persuade the Government of India to make it to the tune of Rs.2 crores outside the Plan allocation. I think the amount must be about 12 crores, subject  to correction. Yes, 12 crores. As against this we have been able to get an additional amount of 12 lakhs and we are trying to get more allocation. Recently there in Central Road Development we have been able to get an additional amount to the tune of 10 lakhs. But initially our activities will have to be limited to the Plan allocation as approved by the Planning Commission. I am trying to place those facts before the House just to give them this information that where there is scope for increasing departmental activities and where there is justification to create new posts, we are always prepared to do so.

        Now, after hearing my reply, I do not think the hon. Members from Jowai will misunderstand the approach of the Government. As I said already and also as mentioned by the Finance Minister in the course of his reply against the criticism that Jowai civil district has been created but no provision has been made for the entertainment of the departmental officers and staff. Now, it is being examined by each and every Department whether there is need for appointment of the head of the Department at the district level with necessary staff. Fund has not been provided in the budget in the first instance but this can be done by re-appropriation. Now, as suggested by Mr. Pohshna when we are finding that a number of departments should be created, the head of departments should be created and officers and staff should be appointed for the purpose. If by appropriation it is not possible to entertain all the officers and staff required for manning these heads of Departments to be created we will come forward with supplementary demands. But let us be realistic about it; let us not simply try to increase the expenditure on creating departments after departments with entertainment of officers and other staff, unless there is justification for creating departments and also justification for creating new posts, thereby I do not mean to say that I am not going to consider the requirements of the newly created Civil District of Jaintia Hills in order to make the tempo of development more effective and expeditious. It was also complained that because of the non-creation of the heads of departments in the newly created district the employment opportunity has been also adversely affected and the so-called Selection Board could not entertain new appointments. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, to this the observation made by me earlier will apply whether will be need for creation of new department whenever necessary in the Districts and we will have to look after the interests of the people of this area to fill up those vacancies. 

        It has been also observed that in the District administration the people of the District should have been given preference in matters of appointment. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, resorting to Clause 4 of Article 16, if I am correct, we will see that Government has taken the policy to make reservations in the various posts in respect of the weaker sections. I had the occasion to inform the House that in the whole State of Meghalaya, in pursuance of the provision of that particular Article, we have reserved the posts in favour of Scheduled Tribes of the State on population basis to the extent of 85 per cent. The break-up is 15 per cent for other Tribals other than the Garos, Khasis and Jaintias and for the Garos and the Khasis and Jaintias combined 80 per cent and further the breakup is 40 percent for the Garos and 40 percent for the Khasis and Jaintia together. Of course, I may be asked to explain why this 40 per cent for the Garos and 40 per cent for the Jaintia and Khasis jointly. Will, Government should make a decision as we have taken the percentage of the Khasis, Garos and Jaintias in various departments and offices in the Secretariat and Directorates. Now the question may be put whether this will be applicable also to the reservation in the District level. This matter requires further examination. But I do not know whether it will be to the advantage of our own people or not because in that case we have to take into account the population structure of each district and that we will have again to work out the opportunities which will be available to the weaker sections in the reservation according to Clause 4 of Article 16. However, this matter will have to be examined further by the Government. But at present this is not applicable. In this connection I would like also to request the hon. Members to realise the facts that only creation of a separate State or creation of a separate District will not automatically provide employment opportunity but it should be a means to explore the various programmes which will create employment opportunity. Therefore, I would request the hon. Members to have little patience over this matter. The hon. Members had the occasion to see that we all joined hands while fighting for creation of a separate State and it was expected that the people are getting enough employment as there would be scope for employment. Therefore, the hon. members had the occasion to discuss in the general discussions and also through their Cut Motions and their argument was for employment of our people. So I will look into the details of this matter.

        Now, Mr. H.S. Lyngdoh had the occasion to complain that since 1964 the Government has decided to create a new Subdivision for Nongstoin. I am sorry that such a long time has been taken to actually implement this decision. I must inform the hon. Members, through you, Sir, that the Government has realised that there has been delay and recently I have asked the Commissioner of Divisions to sit with the concerned officers to go in to the details of establishing a new Sub division at Nongstoin. I hope this will not take much time, but now at least at the beginning it will take much time if after establishing a new Subdivision all hon. Members expect that all department should come overnight. This will have to be done stage by stage. But in the first instance, we are trying to find out a suitable officer who can be appointed as a Special Officer and ultimately as a Sub divisional Officer. Government will have also to increase Police force in that particular area because setting up of a Subdivision means maintenance of law and order and it can not function without that. So naturally we are going to work out which of the departments must be established in the first instance such as Agriculture, veterinary Addl. D.I. of Schools and various other departments and all these will have also to be taken up on a phased programme. As it is at present, the Government will take time to build permanent buildings for the Subdivision at Nongstoin and Simsanggiri. We have already asked the Town and Country Planner of the Government and I have also requested the Minister, Housing to send their expert. In fact the expert in Housing sent by the Government had the occasion to visit Shillong as in addition to planning to improve the Shillong Town. I have also requested him to visit Nongstoin and Simsanggiri. Therefore, I can assure the hon. Member that though the full-fledged State has come into being, the Subdivision of Nongstoin cannot immediately be decided but we have decided that it must function with a number of departments which can be established in the first phase.

        Mr. D.D. Lapang made an observation that as far as district officers are concerned, they should be local men, thereby meaning our own tribal officers. I am sorry that in spite of the best desire of the Government, it may not be possible to appoint only tribal officers as district officers or subdivisional officers because as a rule, every officer should have an experience in the district as subdivisional officer or as district officer and must also have experience in the Secretariat. In fact, there is an instruction that no officer can be considered for higher posting unless he is experienced in the district. Since composition of officers in the Meghalaya administration is not going to be confined to the tribals alone. I cannot give guarantee that the tribals are made district magistrates or civil subdivisional officers, and that arrangement will have to be adhered to. However, as far as other staff is concerned, naturally for making the offices more effective, it should be a point that those who are conversant with the local language should be entertained as far as possible. And even the officers should be make to learn the local languages. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think these are the main points put forward by the hon. Members who had moved the cut motion and also the supporters. Lastly, I can assure the hon. Members that I am also equally anxious as they are and we will see in what best way, taking into consideration the needs of the State as a whole, these aspirations and these anxieties will be accommodated as far as possible. With these few words I will request the hon. Member to kindly withdraw the cut motion.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is a ray of hope for the implementation of civil district administration. At least I request the Chief Minister to give us the District Agricultural Officer and the District Medical Officer immediately.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- That I will do.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- The way the smile comes from the Chief Minister, I now withdraw my cut- motion.

Shri B.B. Shallam :- About this provision made here, it was made in ink!

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- The cut - motion is already withdrawn.

Shri H. Hadem :- On a point of order, I think the hon. Member need not raise the point. 

Mr. Speaker :- I may request the hon. Members, if they want to discuss with the Chief Minister, they can do so in his Chamber. 

        Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw the cut-motion. ( Voices- Yes) The cut motion is with leave of the House withdrawn.

        Now I put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.14,51,100 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "19- General Administration-III- Commissioners and District Administration". The motion is carried and demand passed. May I now request the Chief Minister to move Grant No.16. 

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.5,27,300 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "21- Jails".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Grant is moved. But in this respect I have received one cut motion in the names of 5 hon. Members- Mr. Majaw, Mr. Pohshna, Mr. Maham Singh, Mr. H. Hadem and Mr. H. S. Lyngdoh. Now amongst you, who is going to move the cut motion?

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- I rise to move that the local provision of Rs.5,27,300 under Grant No.16, Major Head "22- Jails", at page 73 of the Budget be reduced to Re.1 i.e.,  the amount the whole Demand of Rs.5,27,300, do stand reduced to Re.1. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Cut motion is moved. 

*Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the subject of jails has got two aspects to which one is with regard to the inmates. There are those who have certainly been found guilty of crimes of various types and categories and although mercy should be shown to them as we have proposed some days ago still I would like to speak, particularly for those other persons who on mere suspicion or on mere accusation are thrown into jails and if for the particular crime of the accused which is non-bailable they are in the jails. You will get even decent persons who have been subjected to such misfortunes, I call it misfortune because our jails are in the worst conditions, of course. I have only been there on the act of mercy visiting some persons. i.e. in Shillong jails. I have no knowledge of the jails in Jowai and Tura if there is any, but the jail in Shillong would be kindly described as a 'Hell Hole' or a regular hell on earth. I would like to know from the Minister in-charge of jails, the Chief Minister, what is the rank of the highest officer who has ever gone into the jail, I mean gone right inside the bars. The condition of the jails is so bad. Even when the Civil Surgeon goes there once a week, he goes to the Jailor's office which is very clean, airy, white washed and all. He sits there and the prisoners are brought before him for examination. There is no such thing as visiting inside these bars, those cages where the floors are filthy with nauseating smell and no beds are provided to the inmates unless they are political prisoners. But a man may be accused suddenly by somebody or accused of being involved in case of relief and rehabilitation, they just dump him along with the other criminals in the jail. I notice here in the budge, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the contingencies at page 81 amounted to Rs.3,10,800 for rations Rs.2,04,000. I would be very happy if really the rations were disturbed. There food is just dished to the inmates in the jail which is not fit even for dogs to eat. Actually the conditions of the jail in Shillong to day are deplorable. We have a provision for sanitation, this is the best joke in the budget Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. At page 81 for sanitation charges the amount is Rs.4,500.00, I really do not know what sanitation is being done, I think it is in fact to encourage the growth of dirt or to bring more foul smell. Hospital charges amount to Rs.60,000.00. These people in the jail were not attended to for months and months together. It is unfortunate that there is a racket in the jail. If the prisoner is to be released the next day, he must provide some money for those persons who are in charge and he writes to the relations to bring money and gives them an honorarium. If we send a packet of cigarettes to the inmates, we have always to send 2 packets and also if you have to send 2 packets you have to send 4 packets, double for the inmate, because the man placed as in charge in the jails will not hand over all the required packets of cigarettes to the inmate who is supposed to get the cigarettes. Similarly if you have to send food to the inmate, you have to send double because half of it will be consumed by the person in-charge of the jail and the other half will be sent to the inmate of the prison. I will not take time of the House Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is certainly a serious matter to speak about the condition of the jail in Shillong and I will reiterate the question and I would like to know Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the rank of the highest officer who is to look after the jails. If you enter into the jail you will find a lot of inconveniences and maltreatment done to the people who were supposed to be convicts and prisoners. 

        Now, another point, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the jail you will find mad people. There are mad women. If the term mad people is rejected but if you go there you will find there are 42 mad women. What will be the position in the jail no one can describe when 42 mad women will be there in the company of men. I think even the sane man would have gone mad altogether or would have gone half mad. The position is totally beyond description but there were no other places anywhere to put them. I hope we will hear a reply from the Chief Minister.

*Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in supporting the Cut Motion moved by the hon. Member on the prevailing circumstances in our district jails, I would like to come to the other point and that is that in the Jaintia Hills District there is no jail. Only a Sub- jail is there. But I don't know Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if this Sub-jail is worth the name because if you happen to be there you will understand the meaning of this Sub-jail. There is lack of administration and a lot of inconvenience that is beyond my imagination. How could we expect that trial is conducted in such a jail. There is no justice at all. Many of the cases registered so far have not yet been disposed of up till now. Prisoners were ill treated by the officer in-charge. They were half fed under-clad in the cemented floor of the jail surrounded by nuisance. Above all, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is no justice at all. Now, we expect that the Chief Minister will reply and will assure that justice would be done in a proper way, so that the prisoners also can find a place as citizens of the State. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will urge upon the Government to take note of this by improving the conditions of the jails in the district and also some amenities of life be provided to those we call convicts or criminals. Besides that, there should be proposal for construction of jails not to speak of repairs. In this connection, I would also request the Government to see that justice is done in the jails and that supervision of the jail affairs should be done by the investigating officers who have a strong and intelligent will to extend every possible justice to the criminals. Justification should be there, and the fundamental right of the prisoners as the case may be is a duly protected under this body of supervision so that when these prisoners are released from the jails they could easily have a common share in the citizenship of the district and the State. They should be safeguarded and tried according to justice and the regulations of the jails, they should not go beyond that. I hope the Government will take this matter into consideration in due time. With these few words I support the Cut Motion.

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, only a few minutes. The great situation that is prevailing there in the jails is horrible. Some jails can be termed 'Urinal, (Laughter). If you have the occasion of entering into our Sub-jail at Jowai, you will be suffocated under the smell of the jail itself. In supporting this Cut Motion moved by the  hon. Member, I fully agree with him. Even important cases regarding criminal offence and others have been kept in abeyance and untried for years altogether and we need not speak what kind of the difficulties and hardships experienced by the prisoners in such jails. It is no need to give a detailed picture in this House. We should better meet the prisoners personally after they have got out of the jail. Let them go to their home first and relax themselves. After 2 or 3 months we should meet such prisoners and ask all about their experiences in the jail and then only one will realise about the real condition of our jails. Even though I found Sir, that there is a huge provision under  this head i.e., Jail administration I doubt  about the improvement of jails. With these few words I support the Cut Motion.

Shri P.N. Choudhury :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Jail administration in our country is in such a condition that it does not tally or fall in line with the administration in other countries, and other States as well. They are a misnomer and a deteriorating condition. If we need to bring in a Socialistic pattern of society, the urgency of reforming these jail administrations should be there so that these people who were the convicts may be protected properly and justified in the true sense of the term. They should also be given equal share in the State as they are the part and parcel of the society. As it is now, as we can see how the jail administration in our State is managed and controlled. It appears that there is no hope for the Socialistic pattern of society. They must be given due consideration even though they have been criminals. And in this respect, I would like to impress upon the Government that more reformatory measures should be taken particularly in the case of the prisoners who have been detained in jails for years together. I have seen a large number of common people detained in the jail for years together. I do not agree with the opinion that the criminals shall be deprived of their civil right as a citizen of the State and of the society as a whole. Therefore, I think it is high time now that we should start reformatory measures of the jails and also to reduce the suffering of the criminals while in jail. After the trial is over and the case is dismissed, they may be brought back to the society to become members of the society. The jail administration as Mr. Majaw has stated particularly the condition of our nearest jail, i.e.,  Shillong jail was completely neglected. Male and female prisoners slept together in the same cell and in the same company. They are underfed and under clad and are to sleep in cemented floor of the jail just for the reason that they were the convicts. Therefore, I would request the Government to take immediate measures so that these things were rooted out at once. And also I will urge upon the Government to depute talented officers to look after these jails with justice to that the convicts were not ill treated like dogs but as human beings. With these few words, I support the Cut Motion. 

*Shri Stanlington David Khongwir :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to associate myself with the mover of this Cut Motion on this particular Grant, i.e.,  Administration of the jails. As already cited by many of the hon. Members I see that this Shillong jail looks like a zoo of human animals and this particular jail, the Shillong jail, as far as I remember, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that even last time when I talked about this in the last Session, I have informed the Government that in this jail there is no proper segregation of the hardened criminals from the ones who have already committed the offence. Another point is, I think as required under the provision of the jail, manual there should be a Visitors' Board to look after the welfare of the inmates of the jail. 

*Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, one word regarding the Cut Motion moved by the hon. Members over and above what the Members had expressed regarding the conditions of the Shillong Jail. I had occasion Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, to visit the Shillong Jail some time back and it is really horrible to see the bad conditions of the Jail. The gate itself needs repairs. Fortunately none of the hon. Member of this House has ever been kept in Shillong jail to know the conditions there. The Jail needs rebuilding. The building itself is small in comparison with the number of prisoners that are to be kept there. Its capacity is for 150 persons but 300 to 500 persons were used to be kept. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is better that we should start a new jail by rebuilding the Shillong Jail. I hope the Minister in-charge will agree if not already proposed to construct the jail. With these few words I support the Cut Motion. 

*Shri P.R. Kyndiah :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to participate in the discussion mainly on the subject of Shillong Jail. I think the Member from Laban has topped the list when he said that there are plenty of prisoners in the Jail. It has come to my knowledge that some young boys were arrested on the first charge or the first offence and because of the bad conditions of the Jail and complete freedom of mixing with hardened criminals they are affected and have become themselves criminals and I think all the hon. Members are responsible for keeping of our people in a good way. I happened to visit the Shillong Jail some time ago and it is really a shocking scene to see and I have seen the describing picture of Mr. Majaw when he referred to the bad conditions of the jail. It is very shocking and even political prisoners were not provided with ordinary toilet or ordinary hygienic condition of sanitation and I will not use outrageous words because it will shock the House. I feel Mr. Dy. Speaker, Sir, it is high time and it is very urgent that certain corrective steps should be taken forthwith and even I will go to suggest to the Chief Minister who is in-charge of Jails that a committee of Members of this august House be formed to go into the various aspects of the jail administration in the whole State particularly the Shillong Jail. About the congested from of the Jail or whatever it is after having made certain observations and having noted I think the Government is fully seized with this problem as has been shown. The budget provision also has revealed almost 4 times the amount that has actually been spent in 1970-71 and almost double in the revised estimate of 1971-72. I think I do not have good reasons in supporting the Cut motion. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I oppose the Cut Motion. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- May I request the Chief Minister to reply. 

*Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is too much for me to suggest. Instead of reducing the demand by Rs.1 it is better to eliminate the entire demand for this purpose. In other words I would like to say that we are to build a society in which jail is not required. But it is very difficult in the present situation to say that because it will be only a wishful thinking. But I think it will be better if we do not have this institution at all. However, having been placed in such a situation this institution will have to continue to exist and I entirely agree with the hon. Members that there is ample scope to improve this institution. I also agree that while we are compelled to have this institution either for the convicts or for under trials it is not the feeling that they are condemned from the society. We must be able to create the atmosphere inside the jail; the convicts should be made to realise that because of their misconduct, because of their activities and because of the crime they committed they have been excluded from the society. We must create the atmosphere to make them realise that if they did not commit that crime, if they did not behave in that way they would not have been kept in the jail, and would have been in the society in the usual atmosphere and environment. Now if that is the objective naturally the various suggestions for the improvement of this institution would have to be taken and I entirely agree and for that purpose I also welcome the suggestion that a Committee should be appointed to go into the details so that our unfortunate fellow brothers and sisters who are compelled to be excluded from the society because of the crime they committed, because of misconduct and misbehaviour, will have an opportunity to realise to correct themselves. It is no use, as suggested by Mr. Pohshna, making them realise their mistakes because after a month or so they have to be asked to come and give lecture to their fellow prisoners or ex-prisoners. But definite measures should be taken. There has been a talk about the conditions, a talk about all round congestion of the jail and also about number of anomalies in the jail administration. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, why I have agreed in principle because there is a lot of scope to bring about all round improvement to this particular institution and also in the administration. I would request the hon. Members to kindly give a chance to the Government to proceed in this direction either on the advice of the committee which may be constituted as suggested by Mr. Kyndiah or through some other means to remove the various anomalies and difficulties in the institution and administration. Well, in this connection I would also request the hon. Members through you, Sir, to realise the jail conditions especially the Shillong Jail. The Shillong Jail passed on to this Government only on 21st January, 1972 and whatever experiences Mr. Majaw might have it is either through visit or by some other means. 

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I have a clarification? What are those some other means?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Through some other means of information. I stand corrected.

        However, I admit that since the responsibility has come to us, Government must give indication that there is sincere desire on the part of the Government to bring all round improvement of the institutions not only the jail institution but also the administration. I think in a small way, we have given the indication in the budget provision, as pointed out by Mr. Kyndiah, but it must be borne in mind that this particular programme cannot be fitted in within the plan programme and we are not in a position to get allocation from the plan for this purpose. Therefore, in spite of our best desire, we may have to move accordingly towards that direction. It may not be possible for the Government for paucity of funds to do all thing required for the improvement within a short period, but I can give the assurance that the Government will move forward towards the direction and make the jail institution a place where the unfortunate friends who are forced to go there having separated from the society will realise their mistakes and feel the atmosphere which will help to realise themselves and for that purpose, to make them as comfortable as possible. 

       Another point is about all these defects which have been pointed out by the hon. Members. The hon. Members should have bought them to the knowledge of the Members who belong to the Jail Visitors Committee as Mr. Khongwir from Mawlai said there was a Board of the Government of Meghalaya which will be reconstituted as a Jail Visitors Committee. Also a question was raised by Mr. Majaw as to who is the highest officer who is supposed to pay a visit to the jail. Will the reply is very simple, the Inspector General of Prisons. 

Prof. Martin N. Majaw :- I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my question was not understood. Who is the highest officer who has ever been inside the jail, not the one who went to the Warden's room but the one who enters through the two steel gate bars.

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- If this is put as a question, then I would have consulted the Department. How can Mr. Majaw expect that in the discussion of the Cut Motion to have a reply from me, it is too much to reply. I would suggest the hon. Member to put the question on this and if the answer is yes; I will answer to them and if the answer is 'No' I will simply reply 'No'. It is not a time to put the question altogether and get a reply from me. On the few observations I can assure you that, subject to the availability of funds, whatever improvement is to be made either for the reconstruction of jail institution or including jail institution to be constructed in Jowai, these will be taken into consideration by the Government and the suggestion put forward by the hon. Member regarding this Committee will be looked into and the whole question will be considered. With these few words, I request the Mover to kindly withdraw the Cut Motion.

Prof. Martin N. Majaw :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is a habit sometimes on the part of the Government to push all these assurances to the distant future. By saying 'under consideration' which will be taken into into consideration or it will be taken up and so on but it may not be that it requires a huge amount of consideration. Say, there are some matters which can be done within 5 minutes like immediate cleaning of the floor room in the jail, this requires only 5 minutes or so. So also the issue of the plank for the prisoners who have not a bed to sleep on but have to sleep on the floor. These do not require the Committee to go into the details.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is very unfortunate. I wish the hon. Member to suggest what is the temporary measure to bring about improvement of the Jail. 

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, one point raised by me has not been met by the Chief Minister, that is temporary arrangement pending final construction of the jail. 

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I have already asked the D.C. to send the proposal. 

Prof. Martin N. Majaw :- In view of the commendable response from the Government, I withdraw the Cut Motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw the Cut Motion? ( voices- yes, yes) The Cut Motion with leave of the House is withdrawn.

        Now I put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.5,27,300 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "22 jails". The motion is carried and the Grant is passed. 

        Now, Grant No. 17.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.1,32,52,300 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "23- Police".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- The grant is moved, I have received one Cut Motion in the names of four hon. Members -

(1)

Prof. M.N. Majaw.

(2)

Shri Maham Singh.

(3)

Shri Enowell Pohshna.

(4)

Shri F.K. Mawlot. 

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- Mr.  Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of  Rs.1,32,52,300  under grant No.17, Major Head "23- Police", at page 84 of the budget be reduced to Re.1.00, i.e., the amount of the whole Demand of Rs.1,32,52,300, do stand reduced to Re.1.00.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- The cut motion is moved. I request the hon. member to raise a discussion.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in this connection I would like to point out some important points. Everywhere we go in Khasi Hills, I have not been to Garo Hills, Sir, I find that the police are wearing their badges M.L.P. while their belts still bear "Assam Police". So it is very difficult to recognise whether the man belongs to Assam Police or Meghalaya Police. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is really, very difficult to recognise as most of them are outsiders, speaking neither Garo nor Khasi nor Pnar. If he is a Khasi man, one will immediately take it that he is a Meghalaya Police man but if he is a non-tribal, you cannot say whether he belongs to the Meghalaya Police or to Assam Police. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Do you mean to say that only Khasis, Garos and Pnars should be in the Police?

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- No, Sir, I am coming to that. As the House is aware, there are thousands of our young men who are rather starving out of unemployment and I do not understand why our Government do not encourage our young men to get themselves enrolled in the Police Department. Why should there be only Bengalees, Biharis, Punjabis  and Assamese in the Police Department? You will find very small number of Khasis or Garos. This is the grievance I have to say for our people. This morning the Chief Minister was a bit hot as the discussion was hot and this time also I would make him hot. 

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I was never hot.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- If we can do this in our State for our people, I am sure we will realise that democracy is the end or the destiny of our future. There is no place in the democratic life for institutions which benefit the few while denying the needs of the common man. I just want to point out this, Sir, for the information of the Government so that it will take necessary steps to benefit our unemployed young men in the State. 

*Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was always called a supporter of cut motion because I used to support every cut motion. In this connection, I want to say that I have also submitted my cut motion but my name does not appear here. I am now supporting the cut motion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have always heard that blame after blame was always put on the Police Department. I meant the working of the Police Department. What I want to say is that with the coming of Meghalaya into full Statehood, and when the Police Department, passed into the hands of Meghalaya Government there is no improvement in the law and order situation. I am also very glad to hear the observations made by the hon. Member, Mr. Mawlot, who moved the cut motion, on the supply of uniforms and badges to the police, and that they are still using the Assam Police belts. But I am sorry, Sir, I have not had a chance to see the belts, as described by the hon. Member before me. I would suggest that another name should be written in the belts. In this connection, Sir. I would like to point out something because lot of mud-throwing has been pointed about these poor people working in the Police Department. These poor people I have seen, are working for the whole 24 hours and they have to do their duties in this way throughout their whole service career. I am thinking that in addition to the new badges and the new uniforms provided to them, some payment should also be paid to them in consideration of the nature of work they have been performing. I also come to learn that the same scale of pay given by the Assam Government is made applicable to them by the Meghalaya Government and it immediately reminds me of the story told by Mr. Aesop regarding a man who used to attend and keep his horse properly. He always combed his hair every day, but took away half of chana of the horse for himself. Here, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, by giving the required uniforms and clothings to the Police personnel would not serve the purpose if their scale of pay is not revised or enhanced. We always hear of the general complaint that the Police Department is a corrupt Department of the Government. But who will not become corrupt if he were made to work for 24 hours. How can we expect them not to be corrupt with their small pay they have been getting. How can we expect to get proper justice? How can we expect improvement of law and order situation in the State? So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, unless we are able to improve the conditions of service of these people their scale of pay, and other things by the Department, we will be nowhere and our State will become as it was in the previous years. So I would like to emphasise the point that even for the Lower Primary School teachers, who are working for 2 to 3 hours a day, we are giving them a starting pay of Rs.120 or so with other allowances, why cannot we increase the scales of pay of the police personnel who are supposed to work round the clock? So I request the Government to be sympathetic enough and to revise the scale of pay of these poor people.

*Shri S.D. Khongwir :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I consider that Police Department is one of the most important Departments because the police comes always in direct contact with the people. As far as it appears to me, it is necessary that the police should try their level best to cultivate a sense of friendship and closeness with the people whenever they come in contact with them. As is the present position, Sir, the police are rather the most hated persons in the society. This is not a thing which has occurred which in our State, but it is prevailing all over the country. So I am of the opinion, Sir, that the entire Department, the personality of the Department itself should be examined carefully and, if necessary, should be overhauled so that we will get a better and efficient Department. I have heard of one story, a person who is a Mali, Sir. He wants to get some job elsewhere, he tried his best but could not get as he was disqualified due to reasons of qualification. At last he went to a police officer, and being disqualified for all the other posts or jobs he had been applying, he had managed to get a job with the police. I mean for Police Constable post he was eligible. So Sir, the Police Constable, especially should be changed and the policy of recruitment so far followed by the Government of Assam should also be changed. We should try to change it. I think police personnel should be one of the best and first rate citizens in the country. We have seen, Sir, that in the all- India- Police Services also only the second or third rate people were taken far raising the Police Service. But I am of the opinion that in our State we should try to get the first rate or the best possible men for the Police Service. But one thing, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to point out here is that I do not see any reason why we cannot recruit police woman, at least they can be very effective especially in sexual offence, searching of women and so on. One point, Sir, I would like to raise about the Shillong Police Beat House. All these Police Beats do not have a single vehicle. Last time during the incident at Mawlai G.S. Road where three persons died at the very same place we telephoned to the Police Beat House and they came there after three hours. We asked them about the delay, they replied that they have no Police vehicle in their Beat House and they have to get it from the Police Station. So I would suggest that the vehicle should be supplied to every Beat House. Another thing I would like to point out is the slackness of the criminal investigation and this has resulted in hardship to those persons who are thrown inside the Jail. So I would request the Government to look into this and speed up the matter. 

Shri H.S. Lyngdoh :- I rise to support the cut motion moved by the hon. Member on this demand for grant. This amount of Rs.1,32,52,300 is really a very big amount for the Police. Of course Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to criticise the policy of the Government regarding the recruitment of Police and also I support the hon. Member who spoke before me regarding the raising of Police Service. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, police administration or Police Service in India if I am not mistaken, was introduced by Lord Clive and the policy has to be followed by the people all over the land. They selected only those persons who have got fearful appearance with long moustache and many of them are characterless to frighten the people and so on and so forth. So we have got a Police Service but the Police personnel have always got a bad name; in Khasi we used to call them "Pulit Dap Ram". It may be because of their small pay they are getting that they have to take bribe from some body while taking up and conducting cases. Sir, we have got our own State, and, as stated by the Chief Minister, all the people should get the benefits of the Government Offices but atleast some changes must be there. Very rarely we have seen any Khasi Police or Garo Police for maintaining law and order and so we must encourage them to join Police Service. We have seen in Nagaland they have got their own Police Battalion even Military also. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir if we are to bring a change in the maintenance of law and order we have to change everything. We demand, Sir, that the Government should raise a new Police Battalion at least to encourage our people who know better the minds of our people and who know better the behaviour and mode of living in our State and they will be in a better position to maintain law and order in the State. But fortunately or unfortunately our Government has taken one Assam Armed  Police Battalion with the apprehension that there might be deterioration of law and order situation after coming of the Statehood. In fact the Government had to incur 13 million rupees for this. But I think if this Reserve Police force is meant for maintaining the border of our State and to escort the V.I.Ps while visiting our State, we must enroll a new Police force from among the people of the State. I just refer to one case. That in the last week I happened to accompany a truck-load of armed forces, i.e., policemen for investigation of one case in my constituency. They have gone one day ahead before me to investigate into the matter. But when I reached there I found that they were telling something for encouragement to investigate into the matter they have to do that because they were afraid of the local people. The Armed Forces taken from the Government of Assam are not acquainted with the situation of the State especially in maintaining  public order as it should be. They are very much afraid of tackling the situation. So I request the Government to raise a Police Battalion from the people of the State which will meet the need of maintaining law and order and ease the unemployment problem of our young people who would like to serve the State. With these few words, I support the cut motion.

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the cut motion and I shall be doing injustice if I do not congratulate our Chief Minister especially for the dress of our Police Forces. We have got our Chief Minister who happened to be a Captain and now he is the Captain of the House of Meghalaya State. Probably due to that reason when I met a Sub-Inspector of Police I thought he might be a Captain in the military when I looked at the beautiful stars in his dress. (laughter) 

        Now as regards the Police administration, Sir, we should reconsider the entire matter. Sir, the Police are the custodians of law and order. If there is any trouble it is these people who are to face the pelting of stones and other things and sometimes they even met death. I think today what the hon. Member, Shri Maham Singh, who happened to be the Director of the Assam Cement Co., mentioned about some gherao in the Assam Cement; I do not know how many Police Forces have gone there and what action they have taken but it is sure they will be the first people to be there. In spite of the fact that they are the custodians of law and order; they are the people who are to suffer if there is anything wrong. Sometimes of course they are meant for keeping the prestige of the Government. We feel proud when some Police escort is going with the Ministers with red flags waving this way that way. It so happened that I met a Police personnel who accompanied the Minister and I told him that he should be very proud of his dress but he said - "dress bahuth acha hai"- but his hand was pointing to his belly since he did not get his lunch at the time when the Minister took his lunch. (Laughter). 

        Therefore, Sir, I agree with the hon. Members that we should have our own Police Force. But I would suggest that there should be 3 Battalions one for the Khasis, one for the Jaintias and one for the Garos. (laughter). 

        Of course, I do not anticipate that they will be fighting as the Assam Police and the Nagaland Police are doing. Although I am not so communal, still I may be excused fro the sake of employment that majority of the Police personnel should be recruited from the citizens of Meghalaya. With these few words, I support the cut motion.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Police being the custodians of law and order of the State we expect they will maintain the security of our State effectively. Besides, I expect that the sons of the soil would be in a better position to take more initiative in securing and guarding the boundary of the State and to look after the law and order situation inside the State. But it has been seen that the police force is almost manned by the people from outside the State. As it is now the police stations cater only to few areas. Especially in my constituency, the whole area comes under Cherra Police Station which is rather nearer to Shillong than to Cherrapunjee. For any matter of law and order, we are to come first to Shillong and then to Cherrapunjee. This Police Station serves no purpose at all to our Mawkyrwat areas. There should have been police force to look after law and order of Mawkyrwat area. There have been many public demands since a long time for a Police Station at Mawkyrwat. But nothing has been done from Government side. There was a time when the Government of Assam decided to open a police outpost and even surveyed area for opening an outpost the at Mawkyrwat itself. But after that nothing was done. So I would request the Government to consider the demand fore opening of a Police outpost prior to setting up of a Police Station at Mawkyrwat. With these words I support the cut motion. 

Shri P. Ripple Kyndiah :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir I am quite in agreement with the remarks of some hon. Members that we should have a reoriented Police Force in our State according to our genius and talent. It is very necessary in view of the fact that it would have tremendous psychological impact on the minds of our young people. Now the steps already taken by the Government are very very good. In the first place, taking over of the huge force from the Assam Police is indeed a good move but the point which I should like to bring forward here is very basic. While I am in full agreement that the Police Force presents opportunities for our young men to join the force and this is quite correct we should go by facts. We find that our local boys particularly the tribal boys are unwilling to join the force. I have met a number of boys and I have tried to talk to them for joining the force but somehow I could feel that there is some sort of a barrier to join the force. That is why there should be a new way or approach in order to attract our boys to the force. But even today there is an information that even those who are already in service are intending to leave the force. This means that there is something basically wrong with the working of the force. It may be because of the 'stomach' low salary, as pointed out by one of the hon. Members while raising a point on the present emoluments in the force or I think it may be due to some psychological reason. Somehow, it is looked upon with contempt in these areas. Therefore, all the hon. Members of this House, as public leaders, should try to make the people and the parents understand that this is a very respectable work because the work of a Policeman is indeed very respectable as it deals with law and order. In other countries like England and even in cities like Bombay or Madras the Policeman, apart altogether from the fact that he is looked upon as the custodian of law and order, is considered as a friend, a guide and a philosopher. If this idea is spread among the people, there will be a rush to join the force and I think this is a very important factor. The other point I would like to mention here is that the Intelligence Branch in our Police Force should not be as it happened in the Assam Government whose personnel are not in a position to deliver the goods. There is a head of account- Establishment of a Detective Training Schools and having our own Detective Training School we can give training to our intelligent boys. I must also congratulate the Government for having been very much alive to the need of this service in the face of infiltration from Bangladesh. As I said the other day, even after the emergence of Bangladesh things in the border areas have not happened in the way we had expected. There are still reports about infiltrations in a different way, the kind of infiltration that is certainly not conducive to the interest of our State. Therefore, Sir, we should be alert to this and (Bell rang) we should strengthen this Department of Police. With these few words, Sir, I oppose the cut motion. 

*Prof. Martin N. Majaw :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the cut motion and in doing so I will very briefly deal with two or three points. The first point is that which has already been raised by the hon. Member on the psychology of policeman which is partly due to lack of education. Recently, I met some decent families from Upper Assam who have said that it is only the riff-raff and low- born of the societies that joint the police force and so we get persons who are not very suitable and who are not very decent. But the least that we should do is that there should be proper education for these constables. Very few of them know how to decently talk to a person. In fact, Sir, many of them are more conversant in barking at people rather than talking to them and so the people, particularly in the interior, are terrified of the policemen.

        Another point is about the basic pay which is only Rs. 92 per month. How can barely support himself, as his salary will come to around Rs.165 with allowance and if he is blessed with a wife and children it cannot be imagined how he is going to feed and clothe them. One day one policeman was seen to pick up biris from the road- poor man. So, Sir, we should raise the basic pay and give them proper education specially in good manners.

        Another point is about instructing them never to beat a person whenever he is alone. The British term of 'Beat House' is very proper because people are beaten in these houses.....(Laughter). Sir, once I had to personally go there and bail out some students. I once saw a boy surrounded by six constables. It was a bloody mess. We had to go there and bail out the boy from the lock- up. Then with regard to the Investigation Department I would like to say that the points raised by Mr. R.P. Kyndiah are very pertinent. On the other hand while not disagreeing with the Government in this respect, I would request the Government to look after this Department. Then, Sir, the A.I.G. with only one Inspector of Police and no staff, how will he be able to carry out criminal investigations in the State? If one Inspector is supposed to investigate into some shady dealings how do you expect one Inspector to do it and the A.I.G. himself cannot do it. At least one A.I.G. in each district should be there.

        With   regard to traffic I would request the Chief Minister to issue orders to all Police Outposts and Police Stations not to send small batches of police personnel towards the end of the month specially on the Shillong- Gauhati Road. I think the explanation is known to all as to why these small batches are there towards the end of the month. Headed by an A.S.I. the small batches look with hungry eyes at the vehicles. Whenever they stop any vehicles something would happen with the result that the vehicle would drive away after the driver passed on a few rupees. There should be a magistrate so that there is no haphazard stopping of vehicles. 

        And finally, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is to my sorrow that I have to bring on the floor of this House that all customs inherited from the Assam Government are still continuing in the Post Offices. There is opening of mails of certain leading politicians and I know that because the foolish persons after opening the letters cannot re-seal them properly and you do not find the perfect circle in the letter. Sir, I take it as an insult to us that our mails should be tampered with. Of course, in the days when we fought for a separate State the ruling party would tamper with the mails of our present Chief Minister. But in these days why should our mails be tampered with. With these few words, Sir, I resume my seat. 

*Capt. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed I am very grateful to all the hon. Members who have participated in the discussion on the Cut Motion because they have all realised the need for better facilities to the Police Organisation. I am one with them in this particular aspect, but I would request them to realise that in spite of our best desire, because of the limited resources available with the State it is not possible for us in the near future to give effect to this desire of the House or at least of all the hon. Members who have participated in this discussion. In this connection, I would request the hon. Members to realise that in spite of the best desire, we have to decide on the basis of our own establishment, family establishment. You want many things to be done, you would like to have a beautiful house, you would like to have delicious food to be served to yourself and your children, you would like to have proper clothing for the members of your family and this and that has to be done according to the limits within that family. But it does not mean that desire for better house, better food, better clothing is denied or is not given or rather given up but it has to be pursued and once you are in possession of all these to improve the economic conditions of that particular family, I am sure it would be possible for us to some extent to fulfill our desire. In regard to the complaint about Police I would like to inform the hon. Members that the Government's attitude would be like this; we know that we fall in line with those people who are not properly paid or adequately paid and today in respect of such desire, it might not be possible for the Government to give, effect to it and along with this, we have also to think about the officers and staff in the department and we will see how it compares with their pay and allowances that are available to the Police and also available to other employees. Unless and until the Government is in a position depending on these resources to have an over-all assessment of this particular question and see inn what way to proceed to make all our employees feel that they are being adequately paid, it would not be possible for us to think in isolation of a particular set of employees. But I see that the pay structure of different categories of officers and staff who are required to serve the Government will have to be looked into. It may be as what Mr. Maham Singh this morning has suggested, that there should be a Committee which I have also given an indication because of increase of pressure on this the Government should realise the need for the appointment of such a committee which well examine all these matters and come forward with its recommendations and before we do that we must be in a position to accommodate those recommendations. Before we do so, we are also to think about our own resources today in our State and also the present economic condition of the people we represent in this House. It is not also possible for this Government to think of new taxation. It would be easy for the Finance Minister or the Minister in-charge of Taxation to introduce the Bill and pass it as we have to increase our resources but we have to see whether our people are economically capable of paying the tax or not. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are in a very tight corner, we want something, we want to give more facilities to the various administrative set ups of the Government, but it is not possible under the present condition to fulfill that desire. I would therefore, while agreeing in principle, like to say that in future all these aspects will have to be taken into consideration not only to improve the pay-scale of this particular Organisation but also other categories of services. In the first instance, we have to see that it is not giving a direct harassment or burden to the people. How to increase our revenue, how to improve our financial position is a problem that the Government has still to tackle. The hon. Members are aware that recently there was a recommendation from the Reserve Bank of India restricting issue of overdrafts to the State Governments. In view of this rigid attitude of the Reserve Bank of India with regard to over-draft I would like to request the hon. Members to realise our position. I cannot make a commitment right here although I was involved in a criticisms of my hon. friend and colleague, Mr. Majaw, in which he said, 'I am not prepared to withdraw this cut motion because the Chief Minister has not made promises here and now'. Is it possible for me to do so? I think we should take that responsibility as leaders, as responsible public leaders and also as responsible Members of this House. it is not my responsibility alone but of my colleagues and my fellow Members in this House. The administration is to be run taking into consideration the ways and means position, taking into account our available, resources not only for increasing the pay and allowances of this particular category of services but let us speak of other services also I would therefore once again like to impress upon the hon. Members that while the Government agrees that there should be improvement in the pay scale of the officers and staff of this particular set up and also other category of services, it may not be possible to give effect immediately. But Government must always bear in mind the need for such action. Well Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there has been a criticism that as far as head gears are concerned, the police personnel are using head gears bearing 'Meghalaya Police' and also the medals but not the belt. The police was taken over only from 21st January this year. Even after that in fact, I personally expected that there may be some criticisms for taking over the police, if we do not provide them with our own uniforms and this and that. Therefore, immediate action should be taken to change the uniforms and badges including the belts and I must confess that up till now we have not been able to provide them with head- gear and badges. Orders have been placed for the belts.  

        Therefore at present, the head- gear and the belts which they still wear, were the belts given by the Assam Government. I would say that as soon as the belts are received, they will be replaced immediately.

        There has been a complaint that the Assam Police Battalion has been taken over as 1st Meghalaya Police Battalion and this should have been avoided. Though there was no such indication in the complaint in respect of taking over of a particular armed police battalion which will be converted into the First Meghalaya Police Battalion, this Government should organise its own police battalion. These suggestions sound very good, but then it is practically impossible to do that. I would request the hon. Members to realise that to organise a new battalion is no easy task. Recruitment, training, organisation take a lot of time, it will take at least a minimum period of one and a half years as we know from the experience elsewhere. I think the suggestion was for resorting to that action and the battalion which is raised in that way might not have the galaxy to encourage the local people. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am very doubtful about this. As pointed out by my colleague, Mr. P.R. Kyndiah, I do not know whether in future we will be able to attract our own people. But in the past, may be for various reasons put forward by the hon. Members, this particular service, the Police Service did not attract our people. I think any uniformed service does not attract much of the people. Only the other day, I went to the Assam Regiment which is in our midst now it does not belong to the Assam Government any more. I was asking what is the composition of this regiment and my colleague, Mr. S.D.D. Nichol- Roy was also asking the Commander. At least they can count on finger how many Khasi boys are in this regiment. I cannot remember the member exactly now; at least it can't be more than the 10 fingers. I asked how many Garos, and the reply was that the Garos are only 2 or so, I cannot remember exactly. It is mostly composed of Mizos and Nagas and Plains tribals from Assam and some Assamese. I have also been trying to know the composition of the personnel from Assam Rifles and in their organisation, I found very few Garos and Khasis. It may be due, as pointed out by the hon. Member, to the fact that the police service which we have taken over from Assam ion the first instance could not attract people. This may be because of pay, or because of the attitude adopted by the people against the police already. Now without taking over first a particular reorganisation, I mean this Police set- up with the same battalion, I am afraid, the attitude of the people towards that battalion would be same. Can you suggest to me that without taking over one battalion from Assam to be the First Meghalaya Battalion any other step by which within a short period of time we could organise and that the law and order situation of the State could have been taken up.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- Whether the applications have been invited for filling up the personnel of the Police Battalion?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Well Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, whenever there is a vacancy in the District Police Force advertisements were made and applications were called for by the recruiting office for the job of police or some other uniformed services and the applicants were asked to meet the recruiting officer. 

        Therefore I agree Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that there must be something wrong in the Police set up. I should like also to bring some change in the policy of the recruitment to police personnel. I would also require in this regard the assistance of the hon. Members and unless and until there is some concrete assistance from them, and if they are not prepared to assist the Government the re-organisation of the set up can not be fulfilled. If the hon. Members are satisfied with all the suggestion contained in my reply, we can start the process how to re-organise this particular set up of the Police Administration which will be constituted according to the local conditions as some of the hon. Members have pointed out. In the meantime, the Government should look after the law and order situation. We cannot wait for that. I do not think in future there will be any complication to create this particular set up on a strong footing. The other day I went to the Assam Regiment and I came across one gentleman who is in the know of things. I do not know how far it is true but he said to me that so far as the Meghalaya- Assam Police is concerned there was no need for such a big regiment. He referred to the Nagaland Regiment and while referring to this he said that the Assam Regiment is only a misnomer. It is a regiment meant for the North Eastern Region as a whole and there is no need to raise a Regiment as in the Nagaland and that there is no need to have such a big regiment. In fact, the regiment composition is only in the title of the Naga Regiment but the majority are non-Nagas. So I do not know ho far we can change the psychology of the people as it has been correctly pointed out by one of the hon. members. Whether it will be decided to organise the Meghalaya Regiment and other responsibilities. Therefore, I would request the hon. Members to be a little bit realistic in this matter. Well Sir, I would respectfully be in disagreement with the opinion that we should go for a change to have the Jaintia Regiment, the Garo regiment and the Khasi regiment. Even if there is the need I think it will not be possible to have our own Meghalaya Regiment. And I do not know whether there will be the necessity of having so many regiments also.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- This is a very serious matter. Therefore I agree with the Chief Minister that the regiment should be there. But we must first inform the applicants to measure the height, the chest and later on their waist to quality themselves before they are supplied with belts ( Laughter) for getting ready to join the Meghalaya Police. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we should have our own Meghalaya Police Battalion to open the scope for employment to our young boys and to suit the local conditions. If we say that the First Meghalaya Police Battalion that we have secured from the Government of Assam is really the Meghalaya force then only we have to change the Battalion completely to be filled up by the Meghalayan personnel themselves. And it is for this reason that our unemployed youths have been rejected by the recruiting officer on several occasions that they were not fit for the jog. I would therefore request the Government that the battalion should come to our State and the belt be changed and also the number should be M.S.P.' 

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- On a point of clarification Mr. Deputy Speaker........

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I have not finished yet. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, whatever may be the case we have to raise our own battalion in future. Well this task depends upon the fund allocation and such additional and ancillary forces will depend upon whether we will have enough personnel from our own State or whether we have to take somebody from outside because we are really short of trained personnel to run the department. We should examine this problem also from the financial point of view. Therefore, I agree that there is need to start this new set up so that Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this new set up will provide employment potentialities to our unemployed youths and in such a way that this organisation can attract job seekers. But as  pointed out by many of the hon. Members earlier, our people will not come forward to grab the opportunity in matters relating to the police force. What are the loopholes, why our people are so shy to join the police force? I think the hon. Members also know even some of the people from our community who have joined that particular service will try to abscond themselves and avoid the same after a limited period without the approval and permission  of the authority concerned. I have an instance with me here about that. But I will not disclose it here on the floor of this House.

        Therefore from this it may be realised that there is some wrong somewhere. Well, Mr. Rowell Lyngdoh had talked about the police station at Mawkyrwat. 

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I raised a point for clarification and in the course of his reply the Chief Minister is always talking something about a Regiment rather than a police battalion.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is something like a Regiment and I just want to give a composite picture of it. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think this particular point will cover the observations made by other colleagues about the entertainment of local people in this particular service. I hope this is the reason why our people are not taking interest in this particular service. When we are in a position to reorganise this Department, a time may come when our people will give a response to this particular service. In this connection, Mr. Pohshna has also raised the point about the physical fitness. I know that there are certain standards prescribed for this service either the height, the chest or this or that but there has been some relaxation. We had just discussed one case regarding the prescribed physical fitness and there are relaxations because there are some communities whose natural stature is short. Therefore if we are to follow the exact requirements of this service, the prescribed height is 5 get 4 inches for the plains people and for the hill people or tribal people it is 5 feet 3 inches and it is required that the height for tribals should be less than the prescribed height, I am prepared to consider it as far as it relates to the Police Force of Meghalaya. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know how far it is true when I am told that the height for the people, whose natural structure is short, can be improved by taking a certain diet and we are thinking of this technique (laughter). 

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to seek information whether these prescribed qualifications include moustache also?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- As far as this matter is concerned that will not be the condition because I do not want myself to be disqualified (laughter). Well there has been also suggestion regarding the need to reorganise the Police Department. I entirely agree to the suggestion and it will be considered if funds available. It may be borne in mind that the Meghalaya Police came into existence with the formation of Meghalaya State only on 21st January 1972. To reorganise the Meghalaya Police and to form the same as a State Police is a difficult task and will inevitably involve large expenditure. It may also be pointed out that the need for a separate District Executive Force for the Jaintia Hills District has come about with the formation of a separate District for Jaintia Hills. The Headquarters staff for the SB/CID/ACB Headquarter, Meghalaya Police Radio Organisation and the Fire Service have also to be formed. The 1st Meghalaya Police Battalion also came into existence with the transfer of the 7th A.P. battalion on 1st May 1972. Provision has to be kept for another Battalion for the Meghalaya State keeping in view the overall law and order requirements. Even with the formation of friendly Bangladesh border problems like infiltration and smuggling remain. In view of the bellicose attitude of China, provision has also to be kept for the maintenance of internal security and guarding of vital installations. Although the activities of the Naga hostiles and Mizo rebels have come down, their possible incursions into our State have also to be kept in mind. Now there has been complaint regarding inadequate number of vehicles. When the Police was taken over on 21st January 1972 subsequently we obtained also some vehicles from the Government of Assam but they are not reliable. I realise the problem but it is not possible to provide a vehicle to each Beat Officer of Police as suggested by Mr. Khongwir. Then Mr. Majaw has complained that the Police Beat House is not the correct name. It is the name given by the Britishers because the Police were beating the people like anything. On this, I think Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we shall have to go in a big way to change the attitude of the people themselves. I can assure the House that as far as possible, unless it is by law permitted to give pressure to the people, the Police will not take resort to such action. Mr. Kyndiah has suggested that it is desirable for us to have now our own training institute to give training to our own people. Well it is a good idea but again that will involve money. At present according to the Reorganisation Act, we are still entitled to utilise the Police Training School at Dergaon and this will continue till we are in a position to set up our own training institute within Meghalaya. Well Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I entirely agree that there is large scope for improvement of this organisation and I am sure that this will be taken up by the Government to see that Police set up is not only efficient and effective but at the same time the police service is also attractive to our people. With these few words Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I request the hon. Member the mover of the cut Motion kindly to withdraw it. 

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied actually with the reply given by the Chief Minister regarding enrolment of local personnel. The point that I raised is how to solve this problem? Another point is reorganisation of women police force which has not also been answered.

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that depends on the need for this particular force. If it is found necessary certainly it will be taken into consideration along with the reorganisation of the Police Force. 

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the answer, the Chief Minister has repeated that they have taken the Police Battalion from Assam. Well, the question does not arise; once it has been taken over, it should have been organised. But now my point is, as stated by the Chief Minister, that we have taken over as we have no Police Force of our own at the beginning. That is why had to the over from Assam. That is not the question here. My point is that even after the creation of Meghalaya Police after Meghalaya came into being, there is no Khasi or Garo personnel. Regarding the pay of the Police the Chief Minister has stated that it will be considered along with others. I would like to point out, as Mr. Khongwir said, that the Police Department is the most important department which has to maintain the law and order situation and help the Government in other respects.

Shri Jormanick Syiem :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there cannot be observation at this stage. 

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, alright. If we are to compare the pay of the Police with the pay of other officers or other personnel working in other departments, we find there is a gulf of difference. The peon of other departments will start with a pay of Rs.100, whereas the Police start with only Rs.90 and altogether it will come to Rs.165. This creates discontentment among the Police personnel. 

        Another point is regarding the training institute. The hon'ble Chief Minister has given an answer that there is a Training Centre at Dergaon. I would like to get clarification regarding this whether this Training Centre is meant for both the MSP or for the DSP.

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Before the hon. Member puts the question before the House, as I have already explained we are as anxious as anybody to entertain as may people of our own in the service. I have explained earlier the attitude at present. Now with regard to the Police Battalion also, initially we have taken over the 7th Assam Police Battalion which became the first Meghalaya Police Battalion. Now it is on the starting point. A number of personnel of the Police Battalion who do not belong to Meghalaya have themselves expressed to join the Assam Police and a number of our own people who are in the 7th Battalion are expressing their willingness to come over to Meghalaya, but this takes time. Therefore, it will be incorrect to say that the Government is not making any attempt to accommodate our own people. But it would be difficult, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if we just compose this Battalion and Police Force only with persons who are Khasis and Garos at the present stage. We have come across a particular constable who does not talk Khasi, if a general remark is made and the attitude is formed, I think it will be too much. However, recently an observation has been made for the new recruitment by the A.I.G., S.P. etc., and we are expecting to get the response from our own people. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, no mention was made by the Chief Minister to my very serious complaint that letters are being opened. My letter also was opened. It is an old habit that we inherited when we were political enemies of the Government of Assam. But why this practice is being continued even today, and secondly an assurance that has been asked from the Chief minister regarding stopping of traffic from Shillong- Gauhati road by an A.S.I. with two or three constables with a motive to get money at the fag end of the month.

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Well, it is not possible for me to go into the details. There is need for reorganisation and also for improvement. If the hon. Members press over that point that a reply is to be made, I can do so. But to what extent all these replies will serve the purpose. May I assure that whatever difficulties are noted in this particular set up, we will try to set them right including that indication that towards the end of the month, the constables move about with the A.S.I. with a motive to get money. When such activities have been brought to my notice, I think it will be too much for the hon. Member to say that I ignore them.

        Another thing is about censuring of letters. It has been said by the hon. Member that a few years back his letters have been censured and why they have been censured. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think it is not a proper forum for me to give a reply that letters of a, b, or c are subject to censuring and why letters belonging to certain groups are not subject to censuring. I cannot say at this stage that all letters belonging to the hon. Members of this House should have to be censured, that will depend on the situation. I must be very sure about it. But so far, I know, no staff from the C.I.D. Branch of Meghalaya Government has been recruited for performing this job. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- After hearing the clarification of the Chief Minister on the points raised by the hon. Mover as well as the hon. Members, may I know the opinion of the mover.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- Unless and until I get something material, I will not withdraw this cut motion. 

        My point is that atleast from the Government side they should try to do something to educate our people or to make them understand. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Now I put the Cut Motion before the House. The question is that the total provision of Rs.1,32,52,300, under Grant No.17, Major Head "23- Police", at page 84 of the Budget be reduced to Re.1.00, i.e., the amount of the whole Demand of Rs.1,32,52,300 do stand reduced to Re.1.00.

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- On a point of information. Since this is the first voting, we require some training.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- I put the Cut Motion again. The question is that the total provision of Rs.1,32,52,300, under Grant No.17, Major Head "23- Police", at page 84 of the Budget be reduced to Re.1.00, i.e., the amount of the whole Demand of Rs.1,32,52,300 do stand reduced to Re.1.00.

Prof. Martin N. Majaw :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you, you have declared it, Sir, you have declared it.

( Division ) 

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- The motion is carried. 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- Thank you, Sir.

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- No, Sir, I think the cut motion is lost.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Now, those who are in favour of the cut motion should rise in there seats.

( After a pause )

    Those who are against the cut motion should rise in their seats. 

Ayes - 11

Noes - 31

        The cut motion is lost.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw :- But we won in the first instance.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Now, I put the main question. The question is that an amount of Rs.1,32,52,300 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "23- Police".

        ( The motion was adopted and demand passed).

        Let us take up Grant No.19. The Chief Minister move to the Grant. 

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- On the recommendation of the Governor, I beg, Sir, to move that an amount of Rs.15,300 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will  come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "26- Miscellaneous Departments- II- Trade Commissioner".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- The grant is moved. Since there is no cut motion, I put the question. The question is that an amount of Rs.15,300 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will  come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "26- Miscellaneous Departments- II- Commissioner".

        ( The motion was adopted and demand passed)

        Now we take up Grant No.24. The Minister of State, Education, to move the grant.

Shri Darwin D. Pugh (Minister of State, Education) :- On the recommendation of the Governor, I beg, Sir, to move that an amount of Rs.2,64,90,000 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will  come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1973 for the administration of the head "29- Education".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- The grant is moved. I have received one cut motion in the names of six hon. members, namely, Shri Hoping Stone Lyngdoh, Shri Humphrey Hadem, Shri Stanlington David Khongwir, Shri Dhruba Nath Joshi, Shri Edward Kurbah, Shri Lewis Bareh. Anyone can move the cut motion.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.2,64,90,000 under Grant No.24, Major Head "28- Education", at pages 111- 133 of the Budget be reduced to Re.1, i.e., the amount of the whole Demand of Rs.Rs.2,64,90,000 do stand reduced to Re.1.00.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- The cut motion is moved. I request the hon. Member to raise a discussion.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in moving the cut motion, I want to raise some points regarding the policy of the Government on general education. As we all know, education is a subject which is within the purview of the State Government, and the provision for education in the budget is the second biggest amount. We have seen Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the system of education or policy of the Government is the same as it was centuries ago, and we are still adopting the same system altogether. In this connection, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to say something on this. That after the commencement of the Constitution of India the District Council was brought into existence and primary education was transferred to the District Council as envisaged in the Sixth Schedule to the Constitution of India and up till now the District Councils are managing primary education in the State. But here in this budget at page 112, we find that provision for primary education, has been included. I do not understand why Government is still maintaining primary education here as the whole primary education was in fact transferred to the District Councils. And again here in this budget we have seen there is a provision for the Basic Schools. We have heard enough about the different Basic Schools all over India which is carrying the memorial of Mahatma Gandhi and this type of education which has been introduced in the State of Assam has been transferred to or taken over by this State. As far as I know there are 11 or 12 Senior Basic Schools in the State which are now functioning but I would like to point out about their progress. In this regard I should say, there is no progress at all and this type of education is not very attractive to our people. We could see that there is no provision for the inspecting staff.  Now some provision has been made for the grant to these Schools but these Schools have been left without any supervision. According to my observation these Schools Basic Schools are not at all necessary and it was also the opinion of Members who have expressed in some forum that these Basic Schools are not suitable for the purpose of education in this corner of the country. And also, Sir, I want to point out the policy of the Government now in maintaining education. There are 3 or 4 categories- they are Government Schools, Special Schools, deficit Schools and then Government grant in-aid Schools and private Schools and there are also some Hindi Schools as far as I learn. In Shillong there are 3 Hindi High Schools which have been given the deficit grants. But Sir, I know there is no proper management and the Managing Committee there never functions for some years while the Government grants have been given and poured to these Schools. It is in fact very essential that the Government after giving these grants to these Schools should arrange for more inspection or for some supervision to see that these grants are not misused and also that teaching of Hindi in the State does not suffer. Amongst the Schools which have been maintained by the Government I want to express my dissatisfaction. According to the present arrangements there are many adhoc Schools which are grant in-aid Schools and the Government had given at least half the amount being the expenditure for the maintenance on adhoc basis. Government used to grant Rs.2,000 against the maintenance of Rs.4,000- Rs.5,000. But the point I want to raise here, Sir, is that the policy of the Government should be that the pay of the teachers in the Schools must be made uniform. What I also want to say is that the aided primary Schools and aided M.E. School teachers are getting only half of the pay enjoyed by the Government Schools. It is better if the Government cannot now normalise, these Schools cannot take over the whole education as envisaged under the Constitution, to make a general scale of pay to meet the requirements of the Schools teachers. Over and above, the School teachers in the private institutions have got small amount of pay; there is no security for their old age and their families have no prospect for their future also. And if we look at this and compare the cost of education as paid to the Government School Teachers and Private School Teachers, it may be in the Colleges, High Schools or Primary Schools we will find that Private Schools have proved better. Therefore, we should see that in all aided Schools, since they have been recognised by the Government, the teachers should be given the same or even better scales of pay automatically.  

        Another thing, Sir, is regarding primary education. The primary schools under the District Councils which are now in existence are in Khasi Hills alone as many as1,500 L.P. Schools and in Jaintia Hills about 600 L.P. Schools. We have two District Councils but they have very poor resources. So there is no fund to meet the pay of the teachers and only one- third of the Schools have been taken over by the District Councils while 2/3rd have not yet received sufficient help from the District Council. Sir, education is a State subject. For this primary education of the District Councils the Government should provide enough fund at least to give free education to the children as per provision of the Constitution under Article 45. So, as the time is very short, with these words, I move this Cut Motion. 


CALLING ATTENTION

( After 5 p.m. )

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Now let us come to the next item,  i.e.,  the calling attention given notice by Shri Upstar Kharbuli. 

Shri Upstar Kharbuli (Malki) :- Sir, under the provision of Rule 54 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business of the House, I wish to seek your permission to call the attention of the Chief Minister to the following letter entitled "Ka Shillong Employment Exchange" featuring in page 3 of the local Khasi Bi- weekly paper "U NONGSAIN HIMA", dated 14th June 1972 which is a matter or urgent public importance and of recent occurrence.  

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Labour) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in a letter of Shri M. Chyne to the editor of "U Nongsain Hima" of 14th June, 1972 under the caption " The Shillong Employment Exchange" it has been stated that recently the office of the Assam Rifles asked for the names of persons from the Employment Officer for several posts of assistants but strange enough the Employment Officer did not forward the name of a single Khasi. There was large number of Khasi boys and girls who had registered themselves for the last 3 or 4 years but have not been called for a single interview while non- tribals who have registered only for 3 or 4 months had been called for the interview. 

        The facts of the case are as follows :-

        The Assam Rifles wrote to the Employment Officer, Shillong on 22nd May, 1972 that two posts of Lower Division Assistants in the Assam Rifles Headquarters, Shillong had fallen vacant. They requested that 10 candidates be directed to appear for a test or interview on 31st May, 1972 at 11 a.m. The prescribed educational qualification was Pre- University or its equivalent and the age limit was 25 years relaxable in the case of Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe candidates. The Employment Officer sent 321 candidates on 24th May, 1972, 11 of whom were Scheduled Tribes who happened to be Khasis or Pnars, 4 Scheduled Casts and 16 others. Scheduled Tribe candidates and the candidates other than Scheduled Castes were those who had not been sent for interview in 1971-72. The Scheduled Caste candidates sent for interview were those who had not been sent before. 


MISCELLANEOUS

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before the House is adjourned, I request you the Ministers to give replies to various questions asked by many hon. Members. 

Shri H.S. Lyngdoh :- I also agree with the hon. Member because I have also given notice of many questions but none of them have been replied by the Ministers. 

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister for Parliamentary Affairs) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to assure the hon. Members that the Government will try to reply to all the questions before the Session is prorogued.


ADJOURNMENT

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- The House stands adjourned till 10 a.m. on Thursday, the 29th June, 1972.

Sd./- N.C. HANDIQUE,
Dates Shillong: Secretary,
The 28th June, 1972. Meghalaya Legislative Assembly.

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