Proceedings of the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly held in the Assembly Chamber at 9 a. m. on Monday. the 1st July, 1974.

Present :- Hon'ble Speaker, five Ministers,  2 Ministers, of State and Thirteen hon. Members.


Unstarred Questions

(To replies were laid on the Table)

Sub-divisional Police Officer for Simsanggiri

Shri Choronsing Sangma asked :

123. Will the Minister-in-charge of Home be pleased to state-

(a) Whether Government has posted the Sub-divisional Police Officer for Simsanggiri  Sub-division with Williamnagar as his head quarter?

(b) If not, when do Government propose to post the Police Officer?

(c) Is Simsanggiri Thana a full-fledged one?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied  :

123. (a)-No Sub-divisional Police Officer has been posted at the head quarters of Simsanggiri Sub-division yet.

(b) -A Sub-divisional Police Officer will be posted at the Sub-divisions as soon as a suitable Police Officer is available.

Shri Choronsing Sangma (Rongrenggiri S.T.) : May I know the jurisdiction?

Mr. Speaker :T he jurisdiction is for the whole Sub-division. That is implied  in your question.

Shri H. Hadem (Mynso-Raliang S.T.) : Sir, question (b) Whether  he will be a tribal or non-tribal?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Whether he will be a tribal or non-tribal does not arise. If we get the right officer then he will be posted.

Black -topping the Damra-Mendipathar-Resubelpara Road .

Shri Sibendra Narayan Koch asked :

124. Will  the Ministe -in-charge of Public Works Department be pleased to state-

(a) Whether the Government is aware of the fact that there is a public demand for black-topping the Damra-Mendipathar-Resubelpara Road?

(b) If so, whether Government propose to comply with the demand?

(c) If so, when?

(d) If not, why?

Shri Darwin D. Pugh (Minister of State, in-charge, Public Works Department) replied :

124. (a)-Yes.

(b) & (c) -Necessary estimate for the work is under preparation.

(d)-Does  not arise  in view of replies to (b) and (c) above.

Shri S. N. Koch (Mendipathar) : Sir, whether estimates have been prepared?

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Koch, it appears that you have misunderstood. The answer is, the estimate is under preparation.

Shri S. N. Koch : My question is when it can be implemented?

Shri D.D. Pugh (Minister of State, P.W.D.) : We had indicated that estimates are under  preparation. After the  estimates are ready, then we shall move for administrative  approval. Of course, the estimates will also have to be technically drafted by the Department. Then only we will be able to start the work.

Shri H. Hadem : (b), Sir, is the public demand only for  black topping?

Shri D.D. Pugh (Minister of State, P.W.D.) : The question is clear and the answer if clear.

Mr. Speaker : You mean whether Government propose to comply preparation.

Shri H. Hadem :In (a) it was  stated "Yes" for black-topping, but in (b) it is only under estimate.

Shri D.. Pugh (Minister of State, P.W.D.) : Black-topping work cannot be started  until estimates have been prepared.

Appointment of Store Keepers, in Khasi Hills, Jaintia  Hills and Garo Hills.

Shri G. Mylliemngap asked :

125. Will the Minister-in-charge of Industries be pleased to state-

(a) The number of:-

(i) Production Centres?

(ii) Training Centres?

(iii) Sales Depots now in existence in the State (District-wise )?

(b) Whether Store Keepers have been appointed for these Centres and Depots?

(c) If not, why?

Shri Stanley D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Industries) replied :

125. (a)-3 Nos. for each district.

(9) Nos. 3 in Khasi Hills.

    2 in Jaintia Hills and 4 in Garo Hills.

    3. Nos.1 for each District.

(b)-Store Keepers have been appointed in the following centres -

1. Leather, Carpentry and Black-smithy Centres, Nongthymmai-3 Nos.

2. Lime Making Plants, Sutnga -1 No.

(c)- Officer-in-charge of each Centre where there is no sanction for the post of any one responsible for Store has to look after the Stores.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot (Nongstoin S. .) : 125 (b), Sir, may we know the reason why in other centres, store keepers are not appointed?

Shri Stanley D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Industries) : I require notice for that Sir.

Prof. P.G.  Marbaniang (Laitumkhrah ) :Whether the production centres are running with full staff, I mean adequate staff?

Mr. Speaker : You mean how many centres are not having adequate staff?

Prof. P.G. Marbaniang : Yes, Sir, in how many Centres staff are not adequate and which are  the Centres ?

Shri Stanley D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Industries) : I would require notice for that Sir.

Pulp and paper Factory in Meghalaya.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked   :

126. Will the Minister-in-charge of Industries  be pleased to state-

(a) Whether Government has received any application for the setting up of pulp and Paper Factory in Meghalaya?

(b) If so, the name of the applicant?

(c) If it is a firm, who are the owners of the firm, and what are their names?

(d) Where is the Factory proposed to be set up?

Shri Stanley D. D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Industries ) replied :

126. (a)-No.

(b) &  (c) and (d) -Do not arise.

Post of Peon in the Office of the Director of Public  Instruction, Meghalaya.

Shri D. Dethwelson Lapang asked :

 127. Will the Minister-in-charge of Education be pleased to state-

(a) Whether it a fact that in the last quarter of the year 1973 application were called , for filling up of post of peon in the Office of the D.P.I.., Meghalaya?

(b) If so, the number of applications received?

(c) The date of interview was held?

(d) Whether it is a fact that time none of these candidates was appointed?

(e) If so, the reasons thereof?

Shri Darwin  D. Pugh (Minister of State, in-charge, Education) replied 

127. (a)-Yes, Sir.

(b)-102 (one hundred and two) applications.

(c) -Interview was held on 22nd and 26th November, 1973.

(d) - No. One of the candidates interviewed was appointed.

(e)-Does not arise.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Question 127 (b). How many post were vacant by the time applications were called for ?

Shri D.D. Pugh (Minister of State, P. .D. ) : The advertisement was for filling up one post.

Whole-sale dealers of Cement in Garo Hills 

Shri Singjan Sangma asked :

128. Will the Minister -in-charge of Supply be pleased to state-

(a) The names and total number of Whole-sale dealers of Cement in Garo Hills with the names of such Whole-sale dealers?

(b) The total quantity of cement allotted to each of the Whole -Sale dealers in Garo Hills from December, 1973 to May, 1974?

Shri Stanley D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister of Supply) replied.

128. (a)-There are six numbers of Whole-sale dealers (Stockists) of Cement in Garo Hills. Their names are :-

1. Shri Sailendra D. Shira, Tura.

2. Shri Dwarka Prasad Agarwalla, Tura.

3. M/s. K.K. Nath, Tura.

4. Shri Orlendra Sangma, Phulbari.

5. Shri  Salmang Areng, Mendipathar.

6. Shri Hewarson Momin, Rongram.

(b)- The total quantity of cement allotted during the period  from December, 1973 to May, 1974 each of the Cement Stockists in Garo Hills are shown below :-

Name of the Cement Stockists                                 Quantity allotted.

1. Shri Sailendra D. Shira, Tura                              210 M/T.

2. Shri Dwarka Prasad Agarwalla, Tura.                150 M/T.

3. M/s K.K. Nath, Tura                                         40M/T.

4. Shri Orlendra Sangma, Phulbari.                         110M/T.

5. Shri Salnang Areng, Mendipathar                        110M/T.

6. Shri Hewarson Momin, Rongram.                       110M/T.

Whole-sale Permits of Food-stuff in Khasi Hills District 

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh asked :

129. Will the Minister-in-charge of Supply be pleased to State-

(a) Whether it is a fact that Government have granted  whole-sale permits of food-stuff to all the Block Headquarters in Khasi Hills District?

(b) If so, the names of those permit holders and the area of their operations?

(c) Whether it is a fact that Government has cancelled all such permits in the name of persons belonging to Meghalaya Scheduled  Tribes  specially  those from rural areas 

(d) The number of Fair Price Shops under the Ri-Bhoi Administrative Unit at present?

Shri Stanley D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister of Supply) replied.

129. (a)-It is not a fact that whole sale license of food stuff is granted  dealers in all the ten (10) Block Headquarters of Khasi Hills District.

(b) - Does not arise.

(c) - No.

(d) - At present there are 88 (eighty-eight) Fair Price Shops.

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh (Umroi S.T.) : Sir, how many whole sale permits have been granted so far in Khasi Hills?

Mr. Speaker : That is a new question.

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh : How many Block Headquarters had been given profits?

Mr. Speaker : It is already  there in the answer.

Prof. A. Warjri (Mawkhar S.T.) : 129 (d) Whether  this number of Fair Price  Shops will be sufficient?

Shri Stanley D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister of Supply) :Yes, Sir.

Grants and Subsides to Cultural Clubs and Organisations.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

130. Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state-

(a) Whether the Government has evolved any policy for the selection  of Cultural Clubs and  Organisations for Government grants and subsides?

(b) If so, what are  the basic  features of this policy?

Shri Darwin D. Pugh (Minister of State, in-charge, Education) replied :

130 (a)-Yes, Sir.

(b) The salient features of the Government policy regard to the sanction of grants and subsides to cultural clubs  and organisation are :-

(i) to help to develop the talents of youth in the fields of culture.

(ii) to help to promote cultural activities among the people of the State ;

(iii) to help the youths to take pride in their culture and social customs.

Shri P.R. Kyndiah (Jaiaw S.T.) :What are the cultural activities sought to be promoted .

Mr. Speaker : The question is what the Government have helped  and promoted?

Shri P.R. Kyndiah : What are the cultural activities which the Government have helped and promoted?

Shri Darwin D. Pugh (Minister of State, in-charge, Education) : Staging of theatres, drama and music.

Shri P.G. Marbaniang : Whether Pop music is one of these? I mean Pop English music. Whether they are considered as promoting cultural activities?

Shri Darwin D. Pugh (Minister of State, in-charge, Education) :We promote our customs and cultural activities.

Deputation allowance to Government Servants from Arunachal Pradesh.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

131. Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state-

(a) Whether Deputation allowance is being given to any of the Government servants in Meghalaya who have come from the Arunachal Pradesh Administration?

(b) If so, (i) the amount paid to each?

(ii) Whether any deputation allowance is given to any Government servants on deputation from the Government of Assam?

(e) If not, the reason for making exception only for those coming from Arunachal Pradesh?

Shri Brington Buhai Lyngdoh (Minister of Finance) replied.

131. (a) -Yes.

(b)-(i) This depends upon the  terms of deputation agreed to by the Arunachal Pradesh Administration as the lending authority and the Government of Meghalaya as the borrowing authority. According to the order  in force, a deputation gets deputation allowance if he opts to retain his own pay scale. No deputation allowance is however, admissible if a  deputationist elects for the pay scale attached to the post. The rate of deputation allowance is 10 per cent  or 20 per cent of his grade pay according to the place of posting.

(ii) -No.

(c) Personnel of the Government of Assam servicing in connection with the affairs of the State of Meghalaya  stand on a  different footing  as compared to the deputations from the Arunachal Pradesh  Administration now serving under this Government. In the letter case, the continuance of the Arunachal Pradesh Administration  personnel depends on the stipulation made in the deputation terms and they are liable to revert to their parent Department on the expiry of the stipulated  period of the deputation. In the former case,  on the other hand, the  services of the Assam Government personnel under this Government are governed by the North Eastern  Areas (Re-organisation) Act, 1971. Section 64 of the aforesaid Act contemplates an agreement between the two Governments for determining such personnel as would be required to serve in connection  with the affairs of the State of Meghalaya with the ultimate object of their allocation to this Government. Section 64 of the Act constitutes, as it were a device for the sharing in administrative experience  between the  two Governments and as such, the question of grant of deputation allowance to the Assam Government  personnel by this Government, such employees will not be entitled to any such  allowance.

Family Planning in the State.

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

132.  Will the Minister-in-charge of Family Planning be pleased to state -

(a) The amount spent so far (year-wise) on Family Planning in the State?

(b) The amount  spent so far on Abortion cases in the form of compensation or other incidental expenditure?

(c)  The amount spent on sterilization in the form of incentives compensation and other incidental expenditure  upto 31st Mach, 1974?

Shri Sandford K. Marak replied :

                                                                   

(Rupees in Lakhs)

132 (a)

1970-71 3.63
1971-72 4.24
1972-73 7.52.
1973-74 6.81

(b)-Nil.

(c) -Payments made year wise on account of compensation to individuals for loss of wages, transport charges  to promoters, Doctors, pare-medical staff, cost of drugs and dressing are as follows :-

Rs.

1970-71 19,900.00
1971-72 7,306.00
1972-73 7,197.00
1973-74 22,625.00

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : 132 (c). How much did  Government spend on contraceptives?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) : I require notice for that, Sir.


SUPPLEMENTARY DEMANDS FOR GRANTS AND SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION FOR 1974-75

Mr. Speaker : Let us pass on to the next item. Call attention. The hon. Member is absent.

        Then, we pass on to item No.3 Discussion on Supplementary Demands for Grants and Supplementary Appropriation for 1974-75. (After a pause). Since there is no discussion, there should be no further clarification on the Appropriation Bill.

    Now, we pass on the item No.4. The Chief Minister to move Demand No.1.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that that an additional  amount  of Rs.3,87,460 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which  will come in the course of payment  during the year ending  the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head '255-Police, etc."

Mr. Speaker : I have received one cut motion which stands in the  name of Shri H.E. Pohshna. He is absent. So I put the main question before the House.  The question is that an additional  amount of Rs. ,87,460 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March,1975, for the administration of the head "255-Police etc., "

(The motion was adopted and demand passed )

The Chief Minister to moved Demand No. 2.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :Mr. Speaker, Sir,  on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional  amount of Rs.1,10,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the ending the 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the head "256-Jails ".

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion, I put the question before the House, The  question is that an additional amount of Rs.1,10,000 be granted to the Minister in-charge  to defray certain  charges which will come in the course of payment  during  the year ending the 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the head "256-Jails ".

(The motion was adopted  and demand passed .)

Now, the Minister-in-charge of Health to move Demand No.3.

Shri S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg  to move that an additional amount of Rs.4,75,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "280-Medical".

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. I have received three cut motions standing  in the names of Shri H. E. Pohshna Shri Upstar Kharbuli  and Shri D.N. Joshi. All of them are absent. So I put  the main question before the House.

        The question is that an additional  amount of Rs.4,75,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge  to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "280-Medical".

(The motion was adopted and demand passed) .

Now, the  Minister-in-charge of Town and Country Planning to move Demand No.4.

Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Town and Country Planning ) : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move, that  an additional  amount of Rs.2,91,000 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charge which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the head "284-Urban-Dev-A-General -II-Town and Regional Planning."

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. I have received  one cut motion in the name Shri D. N. Joshi. But he is absent. So, I put the main question before the House.

        The question is that an additional amount of Rs.2,91,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge  to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March 1975, for the administration of the head "284-Urban-Dev-A-General-II-Town and Regional Planning."

(The motion was adopted  and demand passed.)

Demand No.3. Minister, Labour.

Shri S.K. Marak (Minister, Labour) : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.97,223 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges  which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March 1975, for the administration of the head  "287-Labour and Employment -I-A-Labour".

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. I have received one cut motion in the name Shri. H. E. Pohshna but he is absent. So I put the main question before the House.

        The question is that an additional amount of Rs.97,223, be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "287-Labour and Employment-I-A-Labour".

(The motion was adopted and demand passed.)

Demand No.6.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg, to move that an additional amount of Rs.5,47,500 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the head "288-Social Security and Welfare-III-C-Welfare of Scheduled  Castes, Scheduled  Tribes and Other Backward Classes and D-Social Welfare".

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. I have received  two cut motion in the name of Shri H.E. Pohshna and Shri D.N. Joshi. Both of them are absent. So, I put the main question before the House.

    The question is that an additional amount of Rs.5,47,500 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment  during the year ending the 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the head "288-Social Security and Welfare -III-C-Welfare of Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and Other Backward Classes and D-Social Welfare."

(The motion was adopted and demand passed.)

Now, Demand No.7.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Planning) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, on  the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.3,31,384, be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which  will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March 1975, for the administration of the head "296-Secretariat -Economic Service -II-Planning Boards and Attached Offices."

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. I have received one cut motion in the name Shri H.E. Pohshna. He is absent. There is one cut motion in the names of Shri W. Syiemiong, Shri Rowell Lyngdoh and Shri F.K. Mawlot. Any of them can move the cut motion.

Shri F.K. Mawlot :Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.3,31,384, under Supplementary Demand No.7 major head  "296-Secretariat -Economic Service-II-Planning Boards and Attached Offices" at page  8 of the list of Supplementary Demands be reduced by Rs.100 i.e.,  the amount of the whole supplementary demand of Rs.3,31,284 do stand reduced by Rs. 00.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved.

Shri F.K. Mawlot : Mr. Speaker, Sir, last year we were very much busy and at the same time very enthusiastically engaging ourselves in the helping unemployed  youths coming from the interior as well as those of the urban areas to get themselves known to the Government and also to help them to procure all the application forms for this Half-A-Million -Jobs Programme. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Half-A-Million-Jobs Programme is for different trades and applications were called for in the trade of mechanics hotel management and so on and so forth. There were also teachers who were recruited  and sent to different schools in the interior places. Mr. Speaker, Sir, here I would  like to express my dissatisfaction at the policy adopted  by the Government in respect  of recruit of teachers for the interior.

Mr. Speaker : May I draw  the attention of the hon. Member to Rule 152 which says that the debate on the supplementary grants shall be confined to the items constituting  the same and no discussion may be raised on  the  original  grants nor policy underlying them save in so far as it may be necessary to explain or illustrate the particular items under discussion. So you can no longer raise the policy which the Government had already adopted in this case.

Shri F.K. Mawlot : Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Motion is not the policy cut motion.

Mr. Speaker : But are you referring to the policy or the implementation of the scheme?

Shri F.K. Mawlot :Yes, to the implementation of the scheme. The implementation of the scheme was bad. First of all, the teachers were given three weeks training and after they were sent to different schools without intimating the authority  of the schools or giving them prior information that such and such a teacher is coming to work in the school; and so with the sudden appearance of the new face in the school, the Schools Managing Committees are completely helpless when that particular teacher told them that he is being sent by the Government to teach in their school. They cannot  send him back nor can they accommodate him with satisfaction. Why? Because they cannot understand. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this creates a lot of havoc in some schools.

        Now, with regard to those who were called for Hotel Management. Yes, there were applications and they were  also given the opportunity to get themselves trained with the assurance that after the completion of their training, they will be given ample chances to start their own  hotel by way of loan to be given by the Government or by the nationalized  Banks. Mr. Speaker, Sir, they were also informed that they will get a  stipend of Rs.120 p.m. But I have received information that there are trainees who have passed out a long time back but have not been able  to get their  monthly stipend which they were supposed to get and also the seat rent that they were entitled to get, not to say of the assurances given by the  Government that they will be assisted  with loan. Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are some mechanics who have come forward to train  in the trade running of jeeps or trucks or taxis. After completion  of their training the result is that, they were given one sewing machine instead of one truck or jeep or taxi as they were promised. Mr. Speaker, Sir,  this is an insult rather to the local unemployed  educated youths when they were called for with big  promise and have come forward willingly and  heartily and that Government offered them with only one sewing machine instead of a truck or jeep or taxi. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the majority of those  who have undergone training have not received anything even the stipend as I said, which they were supposed  to get monthly. Mr. Speaker, Sir, my contention in this discussion is that if the Government wants to encourage the unemployed  youth, it is well and good and I wish them well. But the Government should come forward  with a very clear decision to supply  the unemployed  youths with trucks, taxi or jeeps and let them be sincere with their promise.

Mr. Speaker : In other words, your contention is that Government is not sincere in the implementation of the scheme.

Shri F.K. Mawlot : Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, we here in the Opposition Bench also are ready to assist and co-operate with the Government and also help the Government to find out the mistakes  which the Government itself may not be able to detect and we welcome when there  is any help needed by the Government for the improvement  of the whole society not only  of the representatives but of the whole country. So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, my request to the Government is to be  sincere to its own promises. 

Shri S. N. Koch (Mendipathar) : I support the cut motion moved by the hon. Member, Shri F.K. Mawlot. So far this half a Million jobs programme is concerned, we have seen papers were circulated  and schemes formulated as to have the Government of Meghalaya is going  to help the unemployed  educated youths and actually, we are glad  that our Government had taken up such scheme to help in solving  the unemployed problem of  our State and at the hon. mover of the  motion has spoken, the unemployed educated youths who have submitted  applications were called  for interview and were  selected.

Mr. Speaker : You mean to say that in this particular  half-a-million -job programme all applications should be  entertained?

Shri S. N. Koch : No, Sir, that is not my contention. Some of the applications were selected. Since there is a question on interview, it presupposes that only those who were found suitable  in the interview would be selected. But the question is that after three or four months, these selected persons, especially those who applied for running the taxis or jeeps  were intimated that their training, instead of being supplied with jeep or taxi, they were intimated that they would be supplied  with sewing machine. Mr. Speaker, Sir,  in the advertisements, it was clearly stated that Government will not only bear the price of the taxis or jeeps or trucks but will also provide them with maintenance cost and drivers pay for 6 months or one year so that the unemployed  educated youths can established themselves. But, now Sir, in practice we have  come to know that those who are selected  for being supplied  with trucks and buses not to speak  of providing money for drivers pay for  maintaining the vehicles  now are being asked by the Banks to assure that they are capable of arranging from Rs.30,000/40,000 for body building, etc., If a man can spend Rs.30,000 to Rs.40,000 why should be come to the Government and pay for financial assistance?

Mr. Speaker : If he has no money at all why should he ask Government to help in such big buses?

Shri S. N. Koch : But, Sir, it is the Government which ask the educated unemployed youths to apply and according to the advertisement the Government apart from paying the price of jeep, Taxi, Bus and Trucks would advance lump sum amount for a certain period to enable the concerning candidates to pay drivers, pay and to meet the maintenance cost.

Mr. Speaker : I have read  that advertisement. What you have  said is not correct.

Shri S. N. Koch : It is correct, Sir, cent per cent correct .

Mr. Speaker : Then show me a copy  of that advertisement.

Shri S. N. Koch : Sorry Sir, I do not have it with me.

Mr. Speaker :Why quote  something which you cannot show with proof?

Shri S. N. Koch : It is written, Sir, and even cyclostyled.

Mr. Speaker :You have changed  the Government and you should show specific proof.

Shri S. N. Koch : Anyway, Sir, this is clearly shown. But the Government, I think  should stick to their promise.

(laughter....)

Mr. Speaker : What do you mean by that?

Shri S. N. Koch : It means, Sir, that the Government promises one thing and does something else different. I am  not an English man, Sir, this may not correct. But it is something like that. Any way, Sir, now,  though this Government by subsequent circulars, abolished the provision  for taxis and jeeps but the provision of allotment of trucks and buses is there.

Mr. Speaker : That is a matter of policy. i say that in Supplementary Demands for grants there is no more scope for discussion on policy matters, but what are the specific  charges that you have against the Government?

Shri S. N. Koch : I am coming to that, Sir.

Mr. Speaker : But I cannot allow you to take the time of the House talking on something irrelevant.

Shri S. N. Koch : Mr. Speaker, Sir, since the trucks and buses will be allotted and the banks are asking the candidates  to pay  this amount  of Rs.30,000 to Rs.40,000 for buildings the vehicles bodies etc. Government  should bear this amount so that our educated unemployed  youths can avail  this opportunity  and have the vehicles. This is my request to the Government, through  you Sir.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh (Pariong S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, the total demand of this grant is Rs.3,31,384 only which the Government have brought forward in the form of Supplementary  Demand  to regularize the expenditure that has been incurred in sending people for training in sericulture and weaving for implementing Commercial Transport Scheme, for opening up of hotels and restaurants for training of Sectional Assistants. I think all these trades are under the P.W.D. and Soil Conservation Departments.

Mr. Speaker :   Where from do you read that Mr. Lyngdoh?

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : This is a supplementary note, Sir. This is found in para. 13, Page 9, Sir. In this connection, Sir, I may tell you that I have some grievances on this demand. In this Half-a-Million Jobs Scheme, Sir, I know that Government have sent last year certain number of teachers to Cherrapunjee for one or two weeks or so and then these teachers were employed  in some  of the schools. There are  hundreds of them, Sir, and many of them, so far as I know, are boys and girls from Shillong. And they have been sent to the interior  places say, from Shillong to Nongpoh or to Balat or some most interior parts of the State.

Shri H. Hadem (Mynso-Raliang S.T.) : I want to raise a point of order, Sir. That this demand dos not say anything about education here as far as this amount is concerned. This is only for Sericulture and Weaving, Commercial Transport Scheme., Middle Class Hotel under Tourism Training of Hotels Receptionist, Training of Section Assistant under P.W.D. Training of Soil Conservation Assistants, etc, and Training of Foresters under Forests. And nothing was mentioned about the Teachers, I mean Education, Sir.

Mr. Speaker : Very clear very correct. I have told them to confine themselves within the scope of the Demand.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : It is just a matter of reference, Sir. Why not Government bring a Supplementary Demand for  teachers under this Half-a-Million Jobs Programme whose salaries  for last year have  not been paid?

Mr. Speaker : That is irrelevant, and it outside the scope of this Supplementary Demand.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : So, Sir, I will come to the item which has been demanded for this regularisation. Sir, the hon. Members who have spoken before me said that many of these boys and girls were sent for training in the trade for opening of restaurants and hotels. But  so far as I know, Sir, there is no provision at all from the Government to employ these boys and girls who have gone for training in this trade and have passed out from their training. There is no provision in helping them for opening of restaurants and hotels or appoint them in Government hotels. This, Sir, defeats the very  purpose of this Half-a-Million  Jobs Programme of the Government, And now, they are seeking for Jobs, Sir. At the same time, Sir, some of the Sectional Assistants have been sent for training but the Government have not demanded that this money have been spent in giving them work and so it may be regularized, and also that the demand here will include for giving them work when they pass out. But, so far as I learnt those who have  been sent for training are jobless. Government do not employ them. So what is the  use of sending them and spending money for their training? This only creates more unemployment.

Mr. Speaker : So far as I know those who have been sent for  training prefer  to work in private hotels because the pay is more.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : But so far, those I have met are seeking for jobs because they could not get any employment nor could  they start their own hotel or restaurants. So Sir, what I mean to say is this, that the Scheme itself is meant for employing the educated unemployed  youths. Now in spite of their education that they have received from the  schools, many of them passed Matric or P.U. C, Examination and went for that training in that particular trade and have qualified but now they are seeking for jobs. Now they are more educated  unemployed. 

Mr. Speaker : In other words, you mean to say that the Government should send people for training with a view  to absorbing them in Government service.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : That is what I mean, and I understand  that this demand for Rs.3,31,384 also included the money which had been spent while sending them for training and also for giving them facilities for works. That is, my question, Sir. So the statement in this Explanatory Note is not clear. So is the case in Soil Conservation. Here also the Government sent somebody for training and when the trainees come out of their training  they have not as yet been given  any work !

Shri E.  Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) : What do you mean? They have not finished their training.

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Lyngdoh, you have raised some points and I would like the Minister-in-charge to clarify these points. Whether those  people who have completed their training have  ever approached  the Government because this House has understood that they have approached some of the hon. Members. Whether they have approached the Government or not should be clarified by the Minister later.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : So Sir, that is  my doubt about the genuineness of this provision which has been brought by the Government. With these few words, Sir, I support the motion.

Shri W. Syiemiong (Nongspung S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I fully agree with the mover of the motion when he says that when this scheme was first moved out by the Government of India  we were also very pleased in this corner State of India because we know that this scheme would be implemented here also. We know that the unemployment problem is a very acute one and even if only a hundred of our youths  get employment from this scheme we would be very grateful . But Sir, without going into the explanatory note given here, I would like to confine myself only to one particular scheme on which my friends also have said something and that is at Para 5 of Page 9. It is stated here that the  amount of Rs.2,38,000 is being asked  in this grant as part of the Half -a-Million Jobs Programme for the commercial transport scheme. I would   like to know from the Minister-in-charge as to whether  this amount is  meant for  the 10 per cent seed money which the Government is supposed to  give to these  applicants or does it include  the extra money because as we have seen the sanctioning letter the other day, there is an amount of  Rs.76,000 for purchase of a truck. But what we understand is that when the applicant took up with the U.B. I. which is supposed  to give him the money, he was told that the price of trucks had gone up by more than Rs.4,000 or even Rs.5,000. We want to know whether this money in crease would be considered by the Government. Further more, Sir, I would  request the  Minister to be kind enough to go through the newspaper report  where he will see for himself that the price  has gone up i.e., from today the 1st July. I want to know whether this seed money will also include the extra increase in price otherwise it will be meaningless. With  only  Rs.76,000 that particular boy could not do anything especially when he had no training-of course, in this case no training is required. So in his case, it is very easy thing because the Selection Board had selected him but he had been told  that he could not be given unless the Government sanctions as the Transport Department cannot do that. It has to pass through the Finance Department of the Secretariat and even the Finance  Department has no hand in it because it will have to take the concurrence from Delhi or the Central Government. So, Sir, it  is a long process and I want to clear on this. Whether this seed money would solve once and  for all, and if not, there will be supplementary demand and the problem would go to the applicant and he will have to go to Transport Department, to the Bank concerned and then to the French Motor Cars Company or any other Company and again to the Transport Department-so much of red-tapism. Sir, we the tribal people have not much patience and we would simply scratch or head and say : Let us do away with it to give it up. So Sir, I want to clear on this.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh (Mawkyrwat S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  while supporting this cut motion I would also like to raise some points of observation on the same subject. Though none of the hon. Members has raised  anything on the supplementary demand. I would first of all refer to the little, the Supplementary Demand and Supplementary Appropriation for 1974-75 but in all these explanatory  notes in this Supplementary  Demand all the expenditure  was for 1972-73. I do not know whether it is a correct procedure or whether it is proper  to have this supplementary demand?

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Lyngdoh, I have already told in the beginning  when I announced Item No.3 that this matter should have been brought.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : But nobody had brought it, Sir.

(A voices : Too late)

        As many hon. Members have expressed dissatisfaction on the implementation  of this Half -A-Million Jobs Programme, Sir, I also find that this money which has been utilized and which is sought to be regularized now is for 1972-73. But we know that till now........

Mr. Speaker : 1972-73 

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : I mean 1973-74, Sir, But those applicants selected for the scheme have not yet been approved till now, Moreover Sir, in the original scheme which was circulated by the Government we have seen that as many as 60 vehicles  would be allotted to the applicants the educated youths. Now, we are not yet sure whether the whole lot of the 60 vehicles  have been allotted to the applicants or less than that because, as many hon. Members have said, the members might have been  reduced, So I wish the Minister-in-charge to clarify this point -Whether these 60 vehicles  will be allotted  to 60 applicants? Secondly, Sir, with regard to the ninety per cent of the amount which is to be borne by the Bank, we find  these educated boys who have been given allotment order, are finding difficulty to get the money, when they approach the banks. Most of the time the bank do not take any initiative and do not entertain  these educated boys when they approach them with schemes. I do not  know how many boys have  applied them with schemes. I do not  know how many boys have applied and out of them how many have been selected, Therefore, I would request the Government to come forward to help these people whom they have selected in securing loans from the banks. Moreover Sir, as the hon. Member from Pariong stated, we would also like to know whether  those trainees who have been sent for  various trades would be given employment by the Government or they will have to seek employment for  themselves. I hope the hon. Minister-in-charge would clarify for themselves. I hope the hon. Minister-in-charge would clarify these points.

Prof. A. Warjri (Mawkhar S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand oppose  the cut motion particularly from the point of view  that the Government had already done quite a lot under the scheme of Half-A-Million Jobs Programme. In this Budget  Speech the Finance Minister has announced that 250 teachers have been employed and sent to teach in various schools all over the  State.

Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister of Industries) : Discussion on this has been ruled out by the Hon'ble Speaker since this comes under Education.

Mr. Speaker : Let me remind the House that this is actually an excess grant which the Government has already spent  from the Contingency Fund. So, there is little for any suggestion. You could have given suggestions when the debate on the Budget Speech took place.

Prof. A. Warjri :Can I talk about the trucks? How regarding allotment of trucks to the selected  candidates. I know very well that the Government was not at all fault. The ten percent as promised at the  beginning  has been deposited with the  banks by the Government. It is not that the Government did not do anything in this respect. I know that as soon as  the papers were ready, the Government had deposited this 10 per cent. Of course, I agree that there are many young boys who have been selected for the scheme but who found difficulty with the banks. And I think one of the reasons for this is that the prices of trucks have gone up. Therefore, it was expected  by the banks that these selected candidates should contribute something is also too much for those selected candidates to give.

Mr. Speaker : Some of those candidates  are also scared of purchasing trucks due to price hike of petrol.

Prof. A. Warjri : As a matter of fact, the applicants were made  to understand at the beginning that 10 percent would be paid by the State  Government and 90 percent would be coming from the banks. Of course the Government pays this 10 percent at the original price i.e., the price  prevalent six months back and the State Bank or other banks have to pay  for the rest. Here I would like to suggest to the Government to pay 10 per cent not against  the original price of  trucks but against......

Mr. Speaker : As I told , there is no scope for any suggestion. Let the Government reply.

Shri H. Hadem (Mynso-Raliang S. T) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to oppose this cut motion. Sir, it is already written in the explanatory note that this Government is trying  to give employment to our young  people within the State. But in this connection, Sir, I would like to say  that particularly it seems that the hon. Members from the other side who have moved those cut motion had not actually gone into the facts and they have leveled  those charges against the Government on the floor  of the  House. The mover of the cut motion as  well as the hon. Member from  Mendipathar  have alleged that the young boys selected for commercial transport schemes have been given sewing machines when they came back after receiving training in transport schemes. The hon. Member from Pariong rather suggested that the candidates selected  for transport  scheme need not go for training. I do not know which one is correct. It is up to  them to say which one is correct. But so far my knowledge goes I know that the Government have selected some of the applicants  for the transport  scheme. As a matter of fact that the Government if paying 10 per cent  of the cost and now it is the look out of the Government to make necessary provision if that 10 per cent is not sufficient. Secondly, Sir, it was stated before the House  that instead of giving  trucks or taxis, the applicants  were being supplied  with sewing machines etc. According to my knowledge, Sir, this is not correct. As a matter of fact the Government  is trying its level best to solve this unemployment problem even by providing training and other facilities for the employed educated  youths, to under go training in sericulture, Black smithy and other trades and like tailoring and knitting. It does not mean that the Government did compel them to go., but those who want to go may go. After completion of the training, they will be supplied with a sewing machine or other machineries  whatever the case may be. Thirdly, Sir, I would like to point out regarding  this Transport Scheme as stated  by the hon. Mover of this Cut Motion as well as by his supporters like the hon. Member from Mendipathar as well as by his supporters  like the hon. Member from Mendipathar that selected  applicants  would be  provided with a subsidy  of Rs.36,000. Well, Sir, according to my information this is not correct because it has been clearly stated that Government will only provide a subsidy in the form of 10 per cent of the money that the Banks extended on a loan basis. So Sir, what I found here is that it seems that the mover of this Cut Motion had not properly studied  the position of the cases as they are. Therefore, Sir, I stand to oppose this Cut Motion and support  the Demand which has already been expended for expeditious implementation of the schemes by the Government.

Mr. Speaker : Now, I call upon the Minister of Planning to reply.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Planning) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, in a way, I appreciate the interest shown by the hon. Members in this scheme initiated by the Government of India. This is a new scheme. Therefore, it is not so easy for all of us to understand the facts as the hon. Members from Mynso-Raliang has rightly stated. Also it is very difficult for the  people to avail themselves of  the opportunities offered from these schemes. These new schemes are of  two types. One is the Self Employment Scheme which include Commercial Transport Scheme and Middle Class Hotel  Scheme and the other is the Training Scheme which includes as many as 9 items which we have enumerated in the Explanatory note plus one Scheme i.e., the Teachers Training Scheme. So far as these training schemes are concerned, it is a matter of satisfaction that 95 per cent of the target  were achieved. However, in the Self employment Scheme, we did have  considerable difficulties on the part of the Bank. But on the part of the applicants, it would be very difficult at the beginning. But contrary to what the hon. Member, Mr. Lyngdoh, has stated that Government had given no help to the people or the applicants to get  those loans from the Banks, the Government have gone out if their way in calling upon the  Banks and persuading them to ignore the various procedural matters. Moreover, the Government had also taken up with the Government of India to persuade the Banks not only in writing but also in verbal discussion at Delhi to get through in the beginning. But in spite of all the best efforts, the Banks were not able to come forward to sanction the Transport  Scheme. In fact, they were ready to finance only those  small schemes like Tailoring and Knitting Schemes. It was only through the great efforts of this Government that the Banks agreed to finance to the applicants that were selected and then  only the money was sanctioned. Then of course, the hon. mover had also pointed out about selection of applicants. But I may inform the House that after all, there were difficulties because the price of the trucks has increased considerably and other formalities had to be gone  through and papers have to be sent and processed for getting the schemes sanctioned. Well, Sir, it is also a fact, that so many people have not  experienced  banking transaction and other allied business. In any case, I would inform the House  that Government had gone even cut  out of its way to help the people in this matter. Regarding contribution as pointed out by some members, it is a fact that there  were such contribution in view of  the increase of prices that more money is required from this side and that side to augment the fund and in other  to facilities transaction so that the Banks may not object. Therefore, in so far as this Transport Scheme is concerned, if the hon. Members would really  have required as to what extent the Government had gone with this work and made efforts to over-come the difficulties, they would  have apprehended  the Government in this  respect. Therefore,  on this account, I would request the hon. Members to help the Government by co-operating  with it in persuading and taking  up the matter with the Banks and facilitate the procedure  so that our people could avail  themselves of the opportunities. Regarding the Middle-Class  hotels scheme, as some of the hon. Members have stated, I will inform them that this is not a scheme for training of applicants and then providing them with jobs. It is a scheme for imparting  training to the people who desire to go in the line of business as a self help scheme. It is also meant that interested applicants may have  some knowledge of experience or restaurants with the financial aid that the Government is going to extend like in the case of other schemes being extended by the Banks. Therefore, the hon. Members had misunderstood the partisans of the scheme is not meant to provide jobs. However,  if somehow or other, after completion  of the course, if there are vacancies in some of the Government Hotels or Private  Hotels the question of offering them some jobs can be though of. But  this is the scheme, a new scheme for giving  an initiative to these applicants to start their own middle class hotels or restaurants. These are the main questions.

    Regarding soil conservation training scheme, Sir, it is not a fact that the trainees have completed their training and that they do not get any job. But I may inform the House that  they have not completed their training; they started in November, 1973 and they would complete in August 1974. It is only after that period is completed then they will be provided with jobs. In fact, we have not go sufficient  number of trainees. I think these are all the points in regard to this scheme. Now,  in so far as loan is concerned, there was  a point raised  in the 1973-74 budget. But these advances were made in March before the vote-on-account was passed and it was drawn from the Contingency Fund of 1973-74. So Sir, I think these are the point that we discussed and I hope that the hon. Members will understand and appreciate the position and the efforts made by the Government in these matters. Then another  point, I think I have to clarify.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want one more clarification. The Minister has stated that they have not received sufficient number of applicants or trainees for the scheme !

Mr. Speaker : He said that in soil conservation scheme that they could not get required number of candidates.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : No, Sir, my point is whether Government will re-advertise for these posts.

Mr. Speaker : No-I would not allow  this question because this grant with regard  to training of foresters. Some of them  are under training. Then for Hotel Management some of the  trainees have been given stipend at the rate of Rs.159 for graduates. They were fully paid for this training.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like the Minister to clarify as to how many of these hotel management trainees have come forward and how many of them have been paid because some trainees have not received stipends.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Planning) : My answer was that they have been paid already.

Shri Winstone Syiemiong : One more point Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister, I think, has not clarified my point i.e.,  increase in the price of trucks  and cars, What about the present increase of the price of these vehicles during the current year.

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Syiemiong, I will not allow that question also. Because the Government has given reply to that particular question during the discussion on the budget  this year. You can only give suggestion as to what the Government should do during the  give suggestion as to what the Government should do during the current year. But what they have done in the past is not included.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have to seek another clarification and that is, how many candidates were given stipends under the transport schemes? Whether they have been given any loans or subsidy?

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Planning) : The exact number of candidates is not with me now. I do not know at the present moment the number of candidates who have received stipend. I will check up the number.

Mr. Speaker : May I know whether the hon. mover is willing  to withdraw the cut motion?

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Mr. Speaker, Sir, since it seems that there is  very good gesture on the part of the Government, and  as I hope  that from now on, they will try to improve and examine the matter carefully, I withdraw my cut motion.

Mr. Speaker : Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his cut motion?

(Voices..........Yes....... yes ) The cut motion is with leave of the House  withdrawn.

        Now I put the main question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.3,31,384 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "296-Secretariat Economic Services-II-Planning Boards and Attached Offices".

    (The Motion was adopted and demand passed.)

        Now, Minister-in-charge of Co-operation to move Grant No.8

Grant No.8.

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Cooperation) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of  Rs.1,60,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge  to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "298-Cooperation'.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. Since there is  no Cut Motion, I put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of  Rs.1,60,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "298-Co-operation".

(The motion was adopted and demand passed.)

        Now, Minister-in-charge Animal Husbandry to move Grant No.9.

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Animal Husbandry) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.3,00,000 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "310-Animal Husbandry ".

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. But I have received one Cut Motion which stands in the same name of Shri D.N. Joshi,. But on closer scrutiny I have found that this particular grant was meant for the original Poultry Farm at Kyrdemkulai, where as the Cut Motion is meant to raise  a discussion on the proper promotion of Animal Husbandry on a scientific basis of the State. Therefore, the Cut Motion is out of order. Let me put the question before the House. The  question is that an additional amount of Rs.3,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "310-Animal Husbandry ".

(The Motion was adopted and demand passed.)

        Now the Minister, Fishery to move Grant No.10.

        GRANT No.10.

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Fishery) :Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.60,000 be granted to  the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "312-Fisheries".

Mr. Speaker :Motion moved. As there is no cut motion, I put the question. The question is that an additional  amount of Rs.60,000.00 be granted to  the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "312-Fisheries".

(The Motion was adopted and demand passed.)

        Now the Minister-in-charge of Mines and Minerals to move Grant No.11.

        GRANT No.11.

Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Mines and Minerals) : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.64,890 be granted to the Minister-in--charges to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "Mineral Development" head of Account "328-Mines and Minerals-B-Regulation and Development of Mines".

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. Since there is no Cut Motion, I put the question before the House . The question is that an additional amount of Rs.64,890 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come  in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "Mineral Development", head of Account "328-Mines and Minerals -B-Regulation and Development of Mines ".

(The Motion was adopted and demand passed.)

Mr. Speaker : Now Minister-in-charge of Transport  to move grant  No.12.

GRANT No.12.

Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Transport) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.1,40,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "338-Road and Water Transport Services".

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. I have received a cut motion  which  stands in the name if Shri W, Syiemiong, Shri R. Lyngdoh and Prof., M.N. Majaw. Any of them may move the cut motion.

Shri W. Syiemiong : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.1,40,000 under supplementary demand No.12, Major Head "338-Road and Water Transport Services" at page 14 of the list of supplementary demands be reduced by Rs.100, i.e., the amount of whole supplementary demand of Rs.1,40,000 do stand reduced by Rs.100.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. You can raise a discussion only on the  grievances in connection with the purchase  of tyres, tubes and flaps.

Shri W. Syiemiong (Nongspung S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will raise a discussion only on the tyre, not even on the tubes and flaps.

Mr. Speaker : Then in that case it will become out of order.

Shri W. Syiemiong : I will concentrate more on tyres because have less knowledge of tubes and flaps.

    Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the transport services were first introduced in this State we were really very happy and there was a demand everywhere for more and more transport services to be introduced in the new roads. We were really happy that no more  we are at the mercy of the private car owners and drivers who charged exorbitant rates for any journey under taken by any person. But Sir, one and half year or almost two years now, we have noticed that this Transport Service has the greatest number of complaints from the public about the mechanical  failure mostly about the tyres. Every now and then, wherever these buses go these is always a complaint of having a bursting tyre or tyres. I have had occasion or experienced myself, last month the last part of last month or the first  part of this month, I cannot remember the exact date of our State Transport bus, having a bursting  tyres and having no replacement I was stranded  along with a bus load of passengers.

Mr. Speaker : Even with that Rs.1,40,000 Government could not provide  sufficient number of tyres, then why should you come forward with a cut motion? I thought your idea was to ask the Government  how these tyres were purchased and how Government utilized them.

Shri W. Syiemiong : Certainly not about the purchase, Sir.......

(voices- Then how will he move the cut motion.)

Mr. Speaker : The cut motion is in order. Let us come to the tyres side. 

Shri W. Syiemiong : I just want to highlight the defects of these buses. As far as the tyres is concerned, the complaint from the  passengers was, at least what we want is that, if these buses should ply, one or two spare tyres specially for the rough roads should be there, for last time we were  stranded at Mawphlang and we had to spend one full hour there before going also for they said that the bus had gone to fetch a fresh tyre, but  when we reached Mawphlang the tyres got flat. As I said the other day, I have spent my money for the bus fare and till now they  have not reimbursed my money for the bus  fare and till now they have not reimbursed when I was stranded there at Mawphlang. Suppose they will  reimburse the fare, what about my day that was wasted coming to that, what about  the other passengers who were with me in the bus, what about their wages  for the wasted day?..............

Mr. Speaker : Your contention is that this Government should spend more than this in order to get tyres, because if Government have to have more tyres they should have more money to spend.

Shri W. Syiemiong : Not much, Sir.

Mr. Speaker : That is how the cut motion is brought, to focus the attention of the Government on the problem....

Shri W. Syiemiong  : That is another point. The other point is the purchase of sufficient number of tyres.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh (Mawkyrwat S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, in supporting this cut motion, I would only say that when others are getting tyres, private vehicles,  private trucks owners are getting tyres and that too from the allotment of the Government, how can the Government which can  give the controlled tyres to a private person, do not get tyres for itself and with this amount of Rs.1,40,000 they should have got many tyres. But there are complaints everywhere that there is insufficient number of tyres and there is not even a spare tyres......

Mr. Speaker : You want also to know the  quota of the Government.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : Governments first of all, should procure for  itself from the quota of the Government and then give to private vehicles owners. As it is now, it seems, that Government vehicles are not getting tyres, but the private vehicles and private trucks are getting tyres. Though they are running short of tyres, still I under stand that these tyres are available at higher rate in the open market than at the Government controlled rate.

Mr. Speaker : Black market or open market?

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : Open market Sir. The tyres are more in the open market than at the Government controlled price. I do not know whether  these Government controlled tyres, have been converted  into the open market or whether Government could not control them,.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot (Nongstoin S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the cut motion. As the hon. moved of the Motion has said, we will deal specifically only with tyres. I would like to say something regarding the allotment of tyres. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member from Mawkyrwat has rightly stated-how can it be when the private vehicles owners are getting tyres from the Government quota, whereas Government itself, the Transport Department cannot get tyres? If there are  tyres for being allotted  to the private vehicles owners from the Government quota, I wonder why cannot Government allot tyres to its own  Department?

Mr. Speaker : You should not presume that Government cannot get !.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : There are some difficulties Mr. Speaker, Sir. Another point is, I do not know what kind of implementation I for Example, once I had asked for two tyres from the Supply Department. Well, the Supply Department had allotted me with two tyres and with that slip, with a chit a paper, issued by the Supply Department I went to the dealer. That is four months back and till today I was not given the tyres allotted by the Supply Department  I do not know  what has happened actually by the Supply Department I do not know what has happened  actually when some people are getting the tyres and there are some like me who are very unfortunate-as we say in Khasi "sniewbok" or "sohpetiong"- in getting the tyres. If the dealer does not comply with the government 's order, why not the Government take........

Mr. Speaker : But you should inform the Government.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : I have informed  the Supply Department. Mr. Speaker, Sir, that with the chit they have given me, I have approached the dealers, but since then the dealer had refused to give me the tyres.

Mr. Speaker : As a responsible leader, you should have checked  up the the allotment with the dealers.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : That is why I said that people who are  in good book of the dealers get the tyres.

Mr. Speaker : That is more or less a personal grievance which can be solved through some other means. The scope in the cut motion in excess or supplementary grants must be focused only in that particular grant itself and not beyond that, because in the original demand for grants, you have scope for any type of discussions.

Mr. Speaker : That is more or less a personal grievance which can be solved through some other means. The scope in the cut motion in excess or supplementary grants must be focused only in that particular  grant itself and not beyond that, because in the original demand for grants, you have scope for any type of discussions.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Actually, I wanted to deal with it strictly but I cannot avoid passing a remark on that. But Mr. Speaker, Sir, as it is in the Transport Department, I am really very sorry to have learnt that on many occasions; the buses coming from Tura.....

Mr. Speaker : That has already been spoken during  the  budget discussions. Government has taken note. So it not relevant  to this.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  the buses broke down on the way and arrived beyond scheduled time. This is  because of shortage of tyres. May I request the Government that if they want to  run these vehicles, they should  provide them with spare tyres. The  amount is quite  sufficient. If this amount  would have  been given to private  vehicle owners, they would  have  been given to private vehicle owners, they would have been able to supply the tyres to hundred  of vehicles, but because it is a Government  concern, even  with this big amount, it could not supply  the tyres to a few vehicles  that the  Transport Department is having.

Shri Maham Singh (Mawprem) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I consider that there is no difficulty whatsoever on the part of the Government to obtain tyres  or to procure tyres. I also  consider that the amount is not only sufficient but that it is more  than sufficient to purchase the tyres. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say in this connection that the Government has been  working with indifference, with slackness and rather with callousness. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the grievances in connection with the purchase of tyres are that the tyres have not been purchased in time. I was informed that half of the vehicles did not run, only because there were no tyres and that is because the tyres  were not purchase in time. On many occasions  also, there have been breakdowns of vehicles on the roads, as has already been mentioned  by many hon. members, and the passengers have been  put to great inconvenience and the reason for the breakdown is generally  due to the tyres. There are punctures on the way and there are no tyres to replace them and in many cases, spare tyres have not been carried in the vehicles. The passengers are put into great inconvenience. I would submit, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that the working of the Government is very very  unsatisfactory. They do not purchase the tyres in time.

Mr. Speaker : That is outside the scope of the grant. The only point is that the Government fail to purchase the tyres in time.

Shri Maham Singh : So I would submit, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that there has been slackness in the working of the Government. Therefore, through you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say that the Government should consider the great convenience and the suffering of the passengers.

Mr. Speaker : That opinion has been expressed by both sides of the House during the discussions on the budget..

Shri Maham Singh : With these few words, Sir, I support the cut  motion.

Shri D.D. Lapang (Nongpoh S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to oppose the  cut motion moved by the three hon. Members. It is a fact to be admitted. Mr. Speaker, Sir, that there is scarcity of tyres throughout the whole country and one fact should also be borne in mind that in our State, there is regular repair of the roads and new roads are being constructed. These roads are naturally very rough and the wear and tear of the tyres should be considered.

Mr. Speaker : In opposing the cut motion, you must understand the points raised by the mover No.(1) the cut motion was raised to object the expenditure of Rs.1,40,000 on the ground that the Government had purchased these tyres at a very late date. No.2 Government should not have spent this money and instead the tyres  should have been allotted to private truck owners. These are the two most important points.

Shri D.D. Lapang : Yes, Sir, the complaint was that there were frequent breakdowns of vehicles due .......

Mr. Speaker : I have ruled that out. The Finance Minister has already replied during the budget discussions..

Shri D.D. Lapang : It is quite relevant, Sir, I said there is great scarcity of tyres throughout the  whole country and the price goes up.

Mr. Speaker : Whether there is scarcity or not, it is a fact that Government has spent this amount of Rs.1,40,000. It is for this House to regularize or reject it.

Shri D.D. Lapang : As I said that there is scarcity of tyres, therefore, the price goes up. That is why Government could not get the required  number of tyres  for running  the vehicles. So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is quite reasonable that this amount  has been spent on tyres. We have got 13 vehicles  and for one vehicles, there should be 7 tyres including one spare tyres. So for buying 91 tyres, it will  be almost a lakhs not to speak of tubes and flaps to be maintained for proper running of the vehicles and also there are some other materials that are required  for the vehicles. So the question of spending is reasonable  and within the reasonable limit even at a higher price, because of scarcity and it is being allotted by the  quotas and Government will know better than my layman, knowledge. The amount spent is very reasonable. In spite of this, the State Transport of Meghalaya could maintain the running of the services with all these loopholes here and there. I am fully convinced that the amount is quite reasonable and I oppose  this Cut Motion.

Mr. Speaker : The Minister to please clarify.

Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Transport) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, in reply to the Cut Motion, I would like to make it very clear that the Government had tried to purchase tyres in time but tyres were not available in time. We do not manufacture tyres ourselves Mr. Speaker, Sir,  and we do not control distribution. There is informal control and at the  moment the Government of India is trying to work  out the scheme for regional or State-wise distribution, so that each State will have its own quota, and if that is implemented, then perhaps this problem will ease. But so far as time is concerned which seems to be the main focus of  criticism, the contention is that Government tries to buy tyres from the open market but it is not available and the manufacturers also give priority no State Transport undertakings. We make every effort to but tyres in time  and in fact, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I myself when I visited Delhi, I stopped in Calcutta to meet  tyres manufacturers to make special efforts to give tyres to us. The fact is also our roads are not as good as they should be and during the construction of roads, for example, one road from Shillong to Nongstoin, many tyres went out of order which was not expected and because of the scarcity of tyres in Meghalaya, in the whole country as a matter of fact, we had trouble to get tyres in time. It is a fact that the amount of Rs.1,40,000 is not only for tyres and flaps but for some miscellaneous item like driving allowances for drivers and conductors. Out of  this, 61 tyres were purchased which does not meet the total requirement of the transport undertaking but the scarcity of tyres posed a great problem for us and we recognize that sometimes the public has suffered  because  of the break down in the tyres. We hope that with the increase in the availability of tyres after some of new units come up and with the Government of India  controlling distribution, we get our full share or full quota of our tyre requirement, the problem will ease. So it is not due to the slackness or lack of interest on the part of the Government or staff but purely because  tyres are not available in the Shillong market or Gauhati market specially far as getting them directly from the manufacturers concerned. But we  are looking into this problem which is a continuous  problem to us, and with this explanation, I would request the mover to withdraw his Cut Motion.

Shri D.N. Joshi (Shillong Cantonment) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, we heard from the Minister, that this amount of Rs.1,40,000 is not only for the purchase of tyres, tubes and flaps but some of the money is for the  purpose of payment to drivers and conductors and also he has..........

Mr. Speaker : That is outside the Cut Motion.

Shri D.N. Joshi : Sir, we  would like to know if the entire amount  was meant for purchase  of tyres, tubes and flaps and we want it to be used for the purchase of

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Joshi, you should have come with another  Cut Motion before. But now it is too late. Mr. Syiemiong?

Shri W. Syiemiong : I have been  counting the number of heads. So we have no alternative, but to withdraw  the Cut Motion.

Mr. Speaker : Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his Cut Motion?

(Voices : Yes, yes )

        The Cut Motion is leave of the House withdrawn. Now I put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.1,40,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "338-Road and Water Transport Service".

(The motion was adopted and the demand passed.)

Mr. Speaker : The Minister-in-charge of Co-operation to move grant No.13.

Grant No.13.

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Co-operation) : On the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.4,50,000 be granted to the Minister in charge  to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "498-Capital Outlay on Co-operation, 1975."

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved, I have sent that there are two Cut Motions against Grant No.13. The first is out of order and the hon. Member is also absent. The second  Cut Motion to be moved by Shri P.N. Choudhury.

Shri H. Hadem : On  a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In this particular Cut Motion. The particulars mentioned in the Cut Motion which the  hon. Member wants to move refer to the functioning of the Cooperatives  Societies in general.

Mr. Speaker : Second Cut Motion?

Shri H. Hadem : The second Cut Motion is with regard  to the Shillong Whole sale Consumers Cooperatives in particular.

Mr. Speaker : In the first instance, the first point is out of order but as a special case, I will allow discussion only on the functioning of the Shillong Whole sale Consumer Cooperatives.

Shri P.N. Choudhury  (Laban) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move  that the total provision of Rs.4,50,000 under Supplementary demand No.13. Major Head "498-Capital Outlay on Co-operation". Minor Head State Plan, Sub Head "H-Consumers Co-operatives at page 15 of the list of Supplementary demands be reduced  by Rs.100. i.e., the amount of the whole Supplementary demand of Rs.4,50,00 do stand reduced  by Rs.100.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. You may raise discussion only on the functioning  of the Shillong Whole Sale Consumer Co-operatives.

Shri P.N. Choudhury : At the outset I must myself clear. I am not against the granting of this amount to revitalize this cooperative, but I am against the manner in which the subsidy is being granted  to this Shillong Whole Sale Consumer  Co-operative Society. It is just like pouring water in a leaky jar. The result is that in no time there will be no water  in the jar. This is also the same case with the this society. Sir, this  wholesale Cooperative Society is in an  alarming condition so far as finance is concerned. It is a sinking institute. The officer of the Co-operative Society  and executive officer who is managing the entire show. Sir, the financial position of this society is in a very alarming condition. This is like a making jar. I shall cite one instance about its  business condition. The co-operative has incurred heavy loss of about Rs.50,000 in the year ending March, 1972 alone and the total loss that this Cooperative had to incur into that period is about Rs.1,50,000. This shows that the society is not  running well. All is not well with this society. Sir, the Government is  going to give assistance to the Co-operative which is not functioning  well and there is a suspicion of leakage, it will not serve any purpose to the best  interest of the people to provide funds to this society without plugging a leakage first. It needs revitalization and my point is that before  Government  extend any assistance  to the Co-operative, it should first look into the estate of affairs of the Co-operatives so that the assistance given is utilized a proper way.,

Mr. Speaker : In other words, your contention is that this amount of 80,000 given to the Shillong Whole Sale Consumer Co-operative Society a waste on the part of the Government?

Shri P.N. Choudhury : Unless the leakage is plugged before hand, this will be a sheer waste. Sir, this Society is losing every year. My point is extending financial help, the Government should look into the working of the society and plug the leakage and unless that is done, there is little chance of revitalization of the society. We have got about 36 Consumer  Co-operative Societies in this District alone, and  to my information, 12 of them are defunct and many are limping. This happened, because the Government is not looking  into the affairs of those societies as they should have and the co-operative societies  are left to their own. Sir, Government have granted to the Shillong Whole Sale Co-operative Societies as Rs.37,000 for construction of a godown, but instead constructing the godown the entire amount was utilized  in trading account, The Government should see that  the amount is spent for the purpose for which it is meant. This society purchased a truck with some financial assistance from the Government and they incurred  a loss to the tune of Rs.80,000 on truck account . While other transport Co-operation are earning a lot by  plying  trucks. This particular  society is losing by plying this truck. This is a very sad state of affairs. Also Sir, this society purchased an Atta Chaki mill with financial help from the Government. This chaki mill is not working at all and is lying somewhere in the remote  corner  of the town, paying a rent of Rs.100 p.m. This is the state of affairs of the Co-operative Society can be revitalized. I want to pinpoint that while Government is extending help........

Mr. Speaker : When a patient is seriously ill, he must be killed instantly ?

Shri P.N. Choudhury : No, Sir, I mean to say that prevention is better than cure, Government should take action will in time. There should be sufficient staff to supervise the works of a society efficiently and timely.

Mr. Speaker : Your Cut Motion refers only to this amount of Rs.80,000 which the Government has given to the Shillong Whole Sale Consumer  Co-operative Societies in the share capital of revitalizing the limping society.

Shri P.N. Choudhury : My point is that unless this leakage is plugged mere granting of funds will not help. The money will be mis-utilized by the Co-operative Society.

Mr. Speaker : You mean to say that this money should be given after investigation.

Shri P.N. Choudhury : Yes, Sir, in extending financial help to the Co-operative Societies in future, the Government is to see first that the  working of the societies  is satisfactory. The Government is not giving  due attention to the Co-operative Societies. As far as my information goes the Registrar of Co-operation is a part time and he is Ex-officio officer holding  charges  of five other Departments.

Shri H. Hadem : Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is outside the scope of the Cut Motion.

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Hadem, I know this is outside the Motion and it is very difficult on my part to prevent the Hon. Member from expressing whatever he likes but the Minister will only reply to this Rs.80,000.

Shri H. Hadem : But he is taking others time.

Shri P.N. Choudhury : I want to point out that there is no sufficient staff.

Mr. Speaker : Look here, it is better that instead  of avoiding this question Government should take note of what you say and see what they can do in future which is expressed of the Government. Now your contention  is that the amount of Rs.80,000 was spent  for the purchase  of a truck and somebody else is earning out of that  truck whereas the Society gets no benefit from the truck. This is your contention. It is up to the Minister to explain whether this is the fact or not.

Shri P.N. Choudhury : I wanted to stress on one point only i.e., before Government extend any financial help to the Co-operative Societies.

Mr. Speaker : I do not allow other Societies but only this Society.

Shri P.N. Choudhury :Before the Government extending any financial  help, it should first see that the money is not simply wasted.

Mr. Speaker : Anybody else would like to take part?

Shri D.N. Joshi : Mr. Speaker, Sir, while supporting this particular grant Rs.80,000 that is required to finance the Shillong Consumers Cooperative Store in the form of share capital contribution for 1973-74, I have to make certain  observation. This is really a very sorry state of affairs on the part of the Government that a truck which is primarily meant for the purpose of charging stocks to the Consumers Cooperative Store, is being implied by somebody else for his own benefit and the society which is being financed by the Government is being run in such a way that it does  not bring any profit to the society, neither does it help the consumers nor the management. Instead, it is being wasted, and it benefits a particular  person. Now, Mill has been purchase for augmenting the income of the society but this Mill is lying idle  somewhere the Government has to pay the rent of Rs.100 per month, It comes to

(interruption)

Mr. Speaker : Whether that Rs.100 comes out of this Rs.80,000?

Shri D.N. Joshi : It must come because this is connected with the Cooperative Society.

Mr. Speaker : No, the mover has stated that this Rs.80,000 would go to the Society to purchase truck, so why bring an irrelevant  motion?

Shri D.N. Joshi : That truck is not being utilized for the benefit of the society. Now as regards the functioning of the society that society has come into the picture on the discussion. I must touch on the workings of the Society  itself. I find that subsidized cloth which is to be supplied to the consumers there, do not go to the real consumers. Instead, bulk of it goes to the open market. To be  more clear, I would say that this is not open marker but black market.

Mr. Speaker : This is not my remark but my query. 

Shri D.N. Joshi : It may be black market and most of the cloth which should have gone to the poor section of the people goes to the other persons.

Mr. Speaker : Those cloths were purchased out of this amount of Rs.80,000.

Shri D.N. Joshi : It pertains to the working of the Co-operative Store. Unless, the working of the (Interruption).

Mr. Speaker : I must ask a specific question. Whether this amount of Rs.80,000 given to the Shillong Whole Sale Co-operative  Store was meant for the purchase of cloth?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Co-operative) : It is not meant whether  for purchase of truck or cloth,  bit it is share capital.

Shri D.N. Joshi : But Sir, for the convenience of the Consumers............ (Interruption).

Mr. Speaker : So, you have contradicted the mover.

Shri D.N. Joshi : Not that, Sir. But the Society should give a benefit to the Consumers. The management should be such that it becomes real institution of benefits to the consumers, but it does not do so. Therefore, I want that this  Government looks into the matter properly and kindly so that these loopholes and lacunae are properly plugged and it becomes an institution from which the poor consumers can get the maximum benefits. With these few words, I support the cut motion.

Shri H. Hadem (Mynso-Raliang S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, only a few words. I stand to opposite the cut motion. The cut motion is meant  particularly for this one society, the Shillong Whole Sale Consumers  Co-operative Society. And Sir,  actually the amount spent in connection with the share  capital given by the Government is only Rs.80,000 last year and the hon. Members who moved said that this amount of Rs.80,000 was entirely  spent for purchase of a trucks.

Shri P.N. Choudhury : No, Sir, I did not say that.

Mr. Speaker : There is something like purchase of truck.

Shri P.N. Choudhury : I had said something that the money advanced to this Society is for purchase of truck and I want to know how this Co-operative Society  is functioning.

Shri H. Hadem : Sir, it seems that the hon. Members had retreated from what he had already said. That this money was spent for purchase of trucks and the  hon. Member said that it is meant for purchase of trucks and the hon. Member said that it is a meant for purchase of cloths and others. As a matter of fact, what I mean to say is that the amount has been wastedly and un usefully granted by the Government. According to them, this amount should not be spent. If this is so, Sir, it should have been given in another form of a cut motion, and not in this form.  For this particular Society, a amount has been earmarked  for Rs.80,000 only and it should have  been given in the form of an economy  cut. So it seems that there are no grievances, if all  but the grievances is only on the utilization of the money. So, Sir, I think that the Government while giving that amount to the Society knows fully well that the Co-operative Society is badly in need of the amount for which the hon. Member I think would agree to withdraw his cut motion if he had actually known that the amount given by the Government is for the benefit of the consumers themselves. With these few words, Sir, I oppose the cut motion.

Mr. Speaker : Will the Minister-in-charge reply?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Co-operation) : This is Store is the  Shillong Whole sale Consumers Co-operative Store. It comes into the hands of the Meghalaya Government only 21st January, 1972. And  regarding that money which the  hon. Member has said, that might have  happened before out time. But during out time, this amount of Rs.80,000 was granted  to that Store as contribution to its Share Capital. He has said that this is a subsidy. Let us be clear about it, that it is not a  subsidy but only a contribution given to the Store as share Capital. We know that for so long this Store does not function well and we have now taken steps to change the Board of Directors and also soon we will be convening a General  meeting in order to see to the functioning if this Society. Looking into the working of the Society during the last one year  we have found that it has started  functioning in the right  direction and that it will benefit us in the future years. So with this hope we sanctioned Rs.80,000 as a share capital contribution so that it can function well in the future. So, I completely  deny, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that I have any knowledge about the sum of Rs.37,000 or Rs.15,000 or Rs.1,15,000 which the hon. member mentioned. But I am concerned with Rs.80,000 as a share capital contribution, and we had the hope that we can start  a new life in the whole sale store. With these  few words, I would request the hon. mover to withdraw  his cut motion.

Shri P.N. Choudhury : Mr. Speaker, Sir, as the Minister has assured that the Government will take steps to re-vitalize this particular society, I withdraw my cut motion.

Mr. Speaker : Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his cut motion? (voices- yes yes).

The cut motion is with leave of the House withdrawn.

        Let me put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.4,40,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st  March, 1975 for the administration of the head "498-Capital Outlay on Co-operation".

(The motion was carried and demand is passed.)

GRANT No.14.

Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Transport) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which  amount of Rs.6,64,000.00 will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "538-Capital outlay on Road and Water Transport Service".

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. Since I have  received no cut motion, let me put the question before the House. The question  is that an additional amount of  Rs.6,64,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charges to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "538 -Capital Outlay on Road and Water Transport Services".

(The motion was carried and demand passed.)

        Let us pass on Item No.5. in today's list of business, Minister-in-charge of Finance to beg leave to introduce the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. III) Bill,  1974.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Finance) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to introduce the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. III) Bill, 1974.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved is that leave be granted to the Minister-in-charge  to introduce  the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. III) Bill, 1974.

        The Motion is carried. Leave is granted . Now the Bill be distributed  to the Members. Before I ask the Finance Minister to introduce the Bill let me read out the message from the Governor :

        "In exercise of the powers conferred by Clause (1) of Article 207 the Constitution of India, I, Lallan Prasad Singh Governor of Meghalaya hereby  recommend to the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly the introduction of the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. III) Bill, 1974.

Dated Raj Bhavan,

Sd/- LALLAN PRASAD SINGH

Shillong.

Governor"

The 28th June, 1974. 

        Now the  Minister-in-charge to introduce  the Bill.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Finance) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to introduce the Bill.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved is that the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. III) bill, 1974, be introduced.

        The motion is carried and the Bill is introduced. (The Secretary read out the title of the Bill).

        Before  I ask the Minister of Finance to move that the Bill be taken into consideration, let me read the message from the Governor :

        "In exercise of the powers conferred  by Clause (3) of Article 207 of the Constitution of India, I, Lallan Prasad Singh, Governor of Meghalaya, hereby recommend to the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly the consideration of the Meghalaya  Appropriation (No. III) Bill, 1974.

Dated Raj Bhavan,

Sd/- LALLAN PRASAD SINGH

Shillong,

Governor"

The 28th June, 1974

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Finance) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that Meghalaya Appropriation (No. III) Bill, 1974, be taken into consideration.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved is that the  Meghalaya Appropriation (No. III) Bill, 1974 be taken into consideration.

The motion is carried.

Shri Maham Singh (Mawprem) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, at this stage wish to express our disapproval of the policy that has been adopted by the Government  in this regard. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is only a few days ago  that we had  passed the Budget for the year 1974-75 and only after 2-3 days the Government has come up again with a list of supplementary demands - as many as 14 supplementary demands.

Mr. Speaker  : Mr. Maham Singh, I think from one point of view you have missed the bus but, on the other hand pointed out is quite correct. I think I must inform the House that in  the Business Advisory Committee itself I  have already  told the Finance Minister that any excess amount to be voted or any supplementary to regularize the  expenditure of the previous  year should have brought at the earliest advised the Finance Minister that the Business Advisory Committee may recommend  only this time  but it should not be  a precedent for the future. The Finance  Minister also agree and I think the matter should have ended here. It should not be treated as precedent, as I said, and when I called Item No.3. you should have brought this matter and then we could have had a full discussion.

*Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Finance) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I offer an explanation? It is true that we should have brought this  supplementary demand in the last March Session of the Assembly. However, Sir, these expenditures happened  to be incurred in the months of  March. So we have to bring them to the next Session. i.e., this Session. Then  again, there is the question whether  we should have brought it before the main estimates  were passed by this House right from the 12th June itself. However, on this point there were some controversies whether we can bring supplementary  demands before the budget estimates were passed. We may quote here from  May's "Parliamentary Practice" that it is an  usual  procedure  to obtain supplementary vote  before the main reason responsible for this is that as this expenditure  occurred  right in the month of March and the reason why this could not be presented during the last Session as there was no more time. Therefore, we had to bring this supplementary demand in the present Session. We tender our apology for that.

Shri Maham Singh : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to point out under Rule.................

Mr. Speaker : I have already  allowed  this point and I have already  clarified that there could have been a full discussion on the Supplementary  Demands.  That points I raised in the Business Advisory Committee and told the Minister-in-charge also that in future they should  follow the usual procedure. However in view of the  genuine difficulties on the part of the Government and as the Business Advisory Committee also conceded  to the realitics of the problems this matter was allowed to come up before the House. This is a point of principle  of the House  and the Government should always  remember to follow the right procedure; even today the whole House became confused as to how to follow the procedure in so far  as excess Supplementary Demands for excess grant are concerned. Let us  try to catch up  with this spirit  so that we can really create a tradition and maintain that tradition for posterity. Since there is no amendment to the Bill, I would ask the Finance Minister to move that the Bills be passed.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. III) Bill be passed.

(The motion was carried and the Bill was passed.)


THE MEGHALAYA PASSENGERS AND GOODS TAXATION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 1974.

Mr. Speaker : Item No.6 . Before I ask the Minister to move his motion, let me read the message from the Governor :

    "In exercise of the powers conferred by clause (3) of Article 207 of the Constitution of India., I , Lallan Prasad Singh, Governor of Meghalaya, hereby recommend to the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly the consideration of the Meghalaya Passengers  and Goods Taxation (Amendment) Bill, 1974.

Dated Raj Bhavan, Shillong

Sd/-L. P. Singh

The 28th June, 1974

Governor"

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  I beg to move that Meghalaya Passengers and Goods Taxation (Amendment) Bill, 1974 be taken into consideration.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved, Now I put  the question before the  House. The question is that the Meghalaya Passengers and Good Taxation (Amendment), Bill, 1974 be taken into consideration.

(Motion was adopted).

Mr. Speaker : Since  there is no amendment, I will now ask the Minister, Finance, to move that the Bill be passed.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  I beg to move that the Meghalaya Passengers and Goods Taxation (Amendment)  Bill, 1974 be passed.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. Now I put  the question  before the House. The question is that the Meghalaya Passengers and Goods Taxation (Amendment) Bill, 1974 be passed.

(The motion was adopted and the Bill passed.)


The Contingency Fund of Meghalaya (Augmentation of Corpus) Bill, 1974.

Mr. Speaker : Item No.7. Before I ask the Minister, Finance to move the Bill,  let me read  the message from  the Governor.

        In exercise of the powers  conferred by clause (3) of Article 207 of the Constitution of India, I, Lallan, Prasad Singh Governor of Meghalaya, hereby recommend to the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly the consideration of the Contingency Fund of Meghalaya (Augmentation of Corpus) Bill, 1974.

Sd/- L. P. SINGH.

Governor.

Mr. Speaker : Now I ask  the Minister, Finance to  move.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Contingency Fund of Meghalaya (Augmentation of Corpus) Bill, 1974 be taken into consideration.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. Now I put the question before the House. The question is that the Contingency Fund of Meghalaya (Augmentation of Corpus) Bill, 1974 be taken into consideration.

(The motion was carried.)

Mr. Speaker : I will now ask the Minister, Finance  to move that the Bill be passed.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Contingency Fund of Meghalaya (Augmentation of Corpus) Bill 1974 be passed.

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. Now put the question before the  House. The question is that the Contingency Fund of Meghalaya  (Augmentation of Corpus) Bill, 1974 be passed.

 (The motion was carried and the Bill is passed.)

Mr. Speaker : Item No. 8. Minister of Excise  to move his motion.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Meghalaya Excise (Amendment) Bill, 1974 be taken into consideration.

Mr. Speaker :Motion moved is that the Bill be taken into consideration.

(The motion was adopted).

Mr. Speaker : I have received amendment to clause 2 and clause 3 which stands  in the name of Mr. Rowell Lyngdoh.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh (Mawkyrwat S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  I beg to move that in sub-clause (i) of clause  2 of the Bill, the words "other  than" Secondly Sir, " that in sub-clause (ii) of Clause  2  of the Bill, the words "other than" appearing in the second line shall be substituted  by the word "including"

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved.  Now you  can initiate a discussion.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : Sir, in moving this amendment to the Meghalaya  Excise (Amendment) Bill, 1974 my intention in the definition of "Intoxicant " and also in the definition  of "liquor". Sir,  "pachwai" in fact, is a liquor  and  also "tari" is a liquor. Sir, "pachwai" in fact  is a liquor certain element like a  alcohol.

Mr. Speaker : Even the food we used take  contains some amount  of alcohol because our body requires it.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : But those  which contain alcohol had been under the definition of the term "liquor" and now the Government proposes  to drop it from the term "intoxicants" and from the term "liquor". But  "pachwai" as we all know Sir, contains huge  percentage of alcohol  which can be  processed into liquor. If this "pachwai"  is not  included  in the definition on in the provision of the Act, I am afraid Sir, it will encourage definition to make this "pachwai: and instead  of purchasing those other  liquors which our Government is granting license always  our people would switch over to using of this "pachwai"

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Lyngdoh, may I point out that you have brought about amendment to Clause 2 without  any corresponding  amendment to clause II.

Shri Humphrey  Hadem :Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Act shows that liquor means  intoxicating liquor and includes all liquors consisting  of our containing alcohol.

Mr. Speaker : I am pointing only to the technical side of the  definition.

Shri Humphrey Hadem : I mean to say that  if this amendment is accepted, then if will made the original Bill irregular.

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Hadem, you are  to much in a hurry. I am now asking the hon. Mover of this amendment  to confine  himself to the  clause of the Act.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :In fact, Mr. Speaker, Sir, i do not have  anything to say with regard  to Clause 11 because  it is a penal  provision and sub-clause  (i) of clause 2, aims at dropping the exception  only. My contention is that  this definition of "pachwai" and "tari" should  be incorporated  in the said Act. Sir, I could see no reason why "pachwai" could  not become  a liquor. These are other  provisions also for exemption  of certain quantity of this "Pachwai " in the main Act. Therefore, Sir, my contention is that unless  these two words  are incorporated in the Act- under the definition of this Excise Act, I am afraid it will give more  encouragement to the people  in the State of Meghalaya to use "pachwai" "Pachwai" as we all know, is made mainly out of rice which through the process  of fermentation, it became fermented, then it becomes pachwai and lastly  it will be converted  through  the process of distillation of condemnation into a  distilled liquor. So Sir,  if this term "pachwai"  is not included  in this Excise Act, I am afraid  our people will take  recourse to using  it and they  will continue  to make more  and more for rice  and what will happen to rice  which we are saying everyday that it is very difficult to get because of the distillation of liquor from pachwai. Rice is the most essential commodity our people for consumption and not for making pachwai. Therefore, Sir, if  this word is not included in this Excise Act, we can not regulate  this word is not included  in this Excise Act, we can not regularize  anything since  it is outside  the scope of the Excise Act. We cannot simply  tell our people to make small quantity of 'pachwai' they like  in the State and they will go on purchasing  more rice in order to convert it into 'pachwai'. Hence the people in the interior will be happy and will continue to drink 'pachwai' of other liquors or country spirits or other foreign  liquors that the Government are  granting licenses.

Mr. Speaker : What is the difference  between "pachwai" and "Iaidum"?

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : It is the same, Sir.

Mr. Speaker : But people who take "Iaidum" are more healthy, is not?

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : You consider also about the quantity of rice. If you spend one maund of rice for making iaidum or pachwai you may get only certain quantity of pachwai or iaidum where only few  people  take it where as it can be consumed by considerable number of people in a number of days.

Mr. Speaker : But so far as iaidum is concerned, it is made out of millet because according to law, rice can not be used for distillation.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : Mr. Speaker, Sir, Meghalaya pachwai is mainly from Rice  since this word is outside  the provision of the Excise  Act, there will be  nothing  to bar people  for making  it from Rice. I think  instead  of excluding  it from the definition, we should  include the same  under the term of "intoxicants" and "liquor" in the definition. Therefore, with the above amendments I move that the word "other than" that is found in sub-clause (i) of clause  2 and also in sub-clause (ii) of clause 2 should be substituted by the word "'including".

Mr. Speaker : Now, if the proposed  amendment is accepted, will it  not have affect in the subsequent clauses including  clause 11.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : I won't  have Sir, because  section 53 of the main Act which is appearing in clause 11 is the penal clause, and if  it operates as per amendment, it will be very good.

Mr. Speaker : Anybody who would like to participate?

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh (Pariong S.T. ) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, in  support of the amendment moved by my friend, I want to speak  a few words only. Sir, I think the main intention of the Government to bring this Excise  Act is to control the illicit distillation of liquor and  the illicit selling of liquor in the State. This Act will prevent the people also from involving in the evil habit of drinking which used to give them much trouble, either physically or economically or otherwise. It will help people free from the habit of taking liquor. With the  aim in view the Government has brought this Act.

    So, Sir, by  including this "Pachwai" as the hon. mover has said,  from the operation of the Act,  means to exclude all other types  of liquors  processed from rice, millets,  potato or from other  vegetables. So the inclusion of these processes of making liqour will depend  on the Excise Act. But if we cannot check  people from taking  this laidum or pachwai either  prepared  from rice or from fruits or from vegetables  or from some other things, it will rather give people more troubles. It is up to the Government to check it. It is at the discretion of the Government to do so. I  think Government will have  no objection to include the preparation of  liquor from the above  processes, provided  they check illicit  distillation of liquor. Government will  have to implement this Act to check illicit  selling and preparing of liquor at the initial stage which in fact pachwai is the first product at the first stage which will be used in distillation.

Mr. Speaker : I think it is only the question of definition. Now the Minister to reply.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Excise) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is really not much thing to consider on  this question because this House  and the Government  will have every  possibility every time  to bring necessary changes  and amendments when there is a need  for them. As of today, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it has been exempted from the operation  of the Excise Act to  the extent of 2 of rice while the previous Government have accepted  it because of the fact that they found that this "pachwai" to iaidum which is a liquid drink prepared  out of fermented rice, millets or other grains, is a non-distilled one and  is not bad. It has  got  a food value and in almost all hill areas, it is a popularly accepted drink .It may contain alcohol, but it depends upon the degree of the intoxicants element in it. That is why we have thought that instead of putting them in the Excise Act and then again issue a notification to  be not bad for their preparation and consumption in the homes  especially in the tribal homes  in these hills of Meghalaya, we  do not see at present the need to bring in any prohibitive  Excise Act to prohibit them or in any way to regularize them at this stage. But if at any time the Members of this House feel that the practice  has become very much abused as the hon. Mover has indicated  that they may  be using  this "pachwai" at this stage and find that it is too  much abused and  that there is no security to bring them to the Excise Act, then it will help is to be watchful about their prices  and the practice of people to drink this and then we may wait till necessary action can be taken at a proper  time. Therefore,  in view of that fact, it will not be possible to say that we cannot wait for necessary  action  at proper time. Even if it is so urgent an ordinance  can be issued  in a day. Therefore, as far as this point  is concerned, it is not very much serious  or not much  a matter  of controversy. But it is a question of watching the practices, as I already has assumed a very bad  form or has abused  the people. Therefore, with  this and we shall  be grateful if the hon. Member can bring out instance of bad practice  and then only at any time we can have  this "pachwai" included  in the Excise Act. Therefore, I would request the hon. mover to withdraw  his amendment.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : In fact,  the Government has always sought our co-operation and we have always  give it, but here  Sir, it is a small thing, a small word, just to be included there and  if it is to be looked, the whole outlook of the Excise Act will be changed. But it seems that if it is not include there, I mean this  "Pachwai" and "tari" and all these other intoxicating drinks it would look other wise. I think if the Government would co-operate  with us as they want our co-operation, I do not think there is any harm to accept this amendment, which then will give a different  outlook to this Excise Act.

Mr. Speaker : Is it not a fact that this item-Iad-Um, Iad Jyndem, are not used  also for religious performance?

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : Actually, only  a very small fraction of Iadum and Jyndem are used  in the religious performance but in this entire section, the definition of "Pachwai " which includes "Iad-um"  and others, but I do not know how  will it look if this word "Pachwai " should  have been taken out of excluded from the definition, or if "Pachwai" is not more  to be considered  as intoxicant or as a liquor. So.....................

Mr. Speaker : I won't  waste the time now. Let me put the  question before the House. The question is that in sub-clause (i) amendment  of clause 2 of the Bill, the words "other than" appearing  in the third line shall be substituted by the word "including" in sub-clause (ii) of clause 2 of the words "other than" appearing in the second line shall be submitted by the word "including".

(The amendment was negatived by voice  votes) 

        Now,  I put the main question before the House. The question is that clause 2 as it stands  do form part of the Bill, The motion is carried. Clause 2 do form part of the Bill.

        The question is that Clauses 3 and 4 do form part of the Bill,  The Motion is carried. Clauses 3  and 4 do form  part of the Bill.

        Now Mr. Rowell Lyngdoh  to move his amendment to Clause 5.

*Shri Humphrey Hadem (Mynso-Raliang S. T) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to point out here  that the amendment  is not definite  and hence it is irregular. Sir, the amendment as proposed  to be moved  is that the words 'any person' here shall be substituted  by the words 'District Council'. We have two provision according to the Bill. In the first proviso and in the second  proviso, in the first part, we have  provided the State Government  may authorize any officer or  any person, that is also 'any person'. In the second line of the second  sub-proviso (b) written at page 3, there also none of  this section  applies to sale of any foreign  liquor approved or procured  by any person-that also is in the second line of that other  sub-proviso.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : In fact, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to move that ' in the first proviso', of course it is wrongly printed, but actually I  have specially mentioned 'in the first proviso' to clause 5. So shall I move, Sir?

Mr. Speaker : No, that is a constitutional matter. Before  you move I will have  to discuss about one matter. Is it a fact that the  6th Schedule provides  that the Governor  may  authorize the District Council in any matter? If that is so,  then why this legislation in so far  as the Government and the District Council are concerned, the 6th Schedule does not confer  any independent authority to the District Council?

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Excise) : The question here is regarding the policy which is also laid down  in the Constitution, that the Government  may authorize the District Councils to perform the functions of the Government. But however, in the actual  execution of the policy  here in the Excise Act, it will not be enough for the  executing  order for even the Government  officers had to be authorized by the Act. There must be a provision in the Act under which Government  may delegate  its functions  to the District Council. It is a  question of legality.

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Rowell Lyngdoh to move his amendment,  but according to the original one and  not as mis-printed.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move  that in the  first proviso to Clause 5 of the Meghalaya  Excise (Amendment) Bill 1974, the word 'any person' appearing  in the second line shall be substituted by the words "the District Councils".

Mr. Speaker : Motion moved. Now you can discuss.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  this first proviso to Clause 5 seeks to empower any person to grant license  for liquor shops  and other drugs. So words 'any person' here is very  vague. Moreover, this term 'any person' has not been defined  any where in the Act. But as the word 'officer' of course is there in the definition and also the 'Excise Officer'. But this  words 'any person' in  very vague  and if a new Government comes  and this Government goes they may interpret  this expression 'any person' to mean any ordinary person. Here I may cite an example, that if a new Government comes, they will interpret literally  and give  the power of granting  licenses to anybody.

Mr. Speaker : That is the anticipation. But what I do not  under stand is that somehow  or other, throughout  the whole Session, the  stand appeared  to be in favour of the Instrument of Accession. But now  it is practically against that very spirit of the Instrument  of Accession as can be seen from your amendment.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : I do not understand why and in what way we are against  the Instrument of Accession. But here Excise  is the subject of the State Government and it has got the  Excise Act  whereby you can appoint any body.......

Mr. Speaker : That is why  in the Instrument of Accession the  Chiefs  of the Elakas  have power over excise, but not the District Council.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :Well, Sir, the Syiems  and Chiefs  of the  Elaskas are under the District Council, there it is .........

(interruption)

Mr. Speaker : So in other words, let us forget the Instrument of Accession for the present.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : If we have to talk about the Instrument of Accession, I think we need  not talk about the Excise Act.

Mr. Speaker : You want that the words "any person" to be substituted  by the words "District Council" and the words " any person" should be defined. But as I said, if you fall in line with the Instrument of Accession, it should be something else instead  of "District Council".

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : The term "any person" is vague in-as much as it empowers anybody or any ordinary persons to grant licenses. Of course the present Government may have a good aim in empowering the chiefs of the elakas or the dolois or the nokmas. But any Government may interpret it in any way they like. Because the Syiems chiefs, sirdars, dolois come directly under the District Councils, it should be specific that this power should be given to the District Councils so that the District Council will do its own duty whether to consult the Syiems or Chiefs in order to obtain public opinion in the District. In the District Councils, they got elected representatives, so in the matter of granting licenses  public opinion should also be ascertained -through their  representatives in the Councils. We have an apprehension that this expression "any person" may result in indiscrimination granting  of the licenses without ascertaining  public opinion. If the power to grant  licenses  is given to the District Councils, where the  representatives  represent  public opinion there, anything done there, will be taken as done with the consent of the people. So I move that  this  expression "any person" shall be substituted  by the  words "District Councils so that the  power of granting licenses be given to the District Councils. I am not talking of any other power  like detecting  cases and so on as  these things will be done at the direction of the Government. So in the matter of granting licenses, I feel that it is  first to be  ascertained properly from the public  at large  because we  empower  such a person to grant licenses. Therefore, in order to be specific, this expression "any person" appearing  in the first proviso to clause 5 should be substituted by the words "District Councils".

Mr. Speaker : So this person to whom you are referring is different  from a person referred to in proviso (a) to clause 5.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  if at all that power is given to a person referred  to in proviso (a), I have no objection because it refers to plants which do not affect the public.

Mr. Speaker : From your point of view, it is alright. So far as drafting of the amendment is concerned, it requires  some more modification .

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh : Mr. Speaker, Sir,  my amendment only aims at objecting the granting of licenses. Detecting of cases is another subject which we do not object.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh (Pariong S. T.) :Mr. Speaker, Sir,  I also support  the amendment moved by the hon. Member from Mawkyrwat. I think it is a very simple word and I hope the Government may also consider to accept this amendment. In fact as you  have  observed, Sir, Excise is a State subject. This subject of excise is not a  concurrent  subject. It is under the State Government . So it is the State  Government  to bring the Excise Act into force as we have already  discussed. In so far as this question is concerned, there is still some thing in the minds of the people or in the institutions which are there  in existence  in the State specially in Khasi Hills, not only in Khasi  Hills but also in Garo Hills and Jaintia Hills, though there is no Instrument of Accession. If we are to bring  any new change relating  to the administration of the State, it should be uniform. So this expression "any person" may be substituted  by the words "District Councils". This will also give a good gesture to the people and to the chiefs who  are there in the State under the District Council. In fact, these chiefs  or local institutions in the State like the nokmas, dolois , syiems, sirdars  cannot deal direct with the Government. Therefore,  the Excise Officer  or the Minister -in-charge of Excise will not be able to deal direct with the Chiefs but through the District Council.

Mr. Speaker : This is the practice  so long .

 Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : It has been practice  since the time of the composite State of Assam. So, I hope that the Government while bringing this bill, they should think as  they have  expressed in the Budget Speech that they  want the co-operation of the chiefs and the District Council. So, Sir, with that  spirit in view, I believe, as the Government is of the same view  with what the hon. Member has sought by his amendment, that they will come forward with something  definite. I think it will be wise and good enough if instead  of this  expression "any person", the words "District Council" be accepted. I do  not mind the words "Excise Officer" or Secretaries or other  Officers  of any rank . But here to say "any person" is not at all clear and  specific. So I hope this will be a good gesture  on the part of the  Government to accept this amendment. With these  few words, Sir, support the amendment .

Shri G. Mylliemngap (Sohryngkham S.T.) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, in opposing the amendment.  (At this stage the Speaker vacated  the Chair and the Deputy Speaker occupied it) it is seem that Clause 5 if the enabling  Clause to enable Government to work out of working  formula. But as  it has been rightly pointed out by  the hon. Members from that side, that the Excise Act is not within the purview of the District Council and for  granting licenses, power has been given to the  Chiefs in the previous  Khasi States in the whole of the District of Khasi Hills. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as  regards power of granting  licenses,  it  has been the practice  that no licenses normally were issued to any distillery  unless the opinions of the villages  leaders  and public were consulted. Why this  particular  word "any person" has been included in the amendment? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I have said there are many Chiefs in the Khasi Hills  and there are some institutions in Jaintia Hills and Garo Hills. But all these Chiefs of local institutions may not have the qualifications for which Government can entrust this policy of granting licenses. Therefore, it is difficult to  include that all the Chiefs or all the Dolois  or Nokmas or Laskars, because  they may not have the required  qualification. Therefore, Sir, I feel that the word "any person", is rightly placed and it depends upon the Government  to find out what type of chiefs can be entrusted with this power because all of them may not qualified  for this. Therefore, I feel that the amendment brought forward by the hon. Member from Mawkyrwat may not help the Government.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Excise) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  the contention of the hon. Member from Mawkyrwat who moved  the amendment is that the word "any person" is too vague  and it should  be substituted by a more definite  word, "District Council ". That is contention. But in the contrary, Sir, I would submit that the word "District Council" is too vague, where the word "person" is more definite. We have experienced in the District Council while we were there, where Act, Deeds and Orders of the District  Council were nullified by the High Court because of their vagueness. It simply said "Council", whether  member of the District Council, or C.E.M.  or the Chairman. Because it is too vague, many of the Acts of the District Council have been set aside, as  I said, it may be the Chairman, the Secretary or E. M. or Officer, it is too vague to be definite. In the same way, if any executive action is entrusted to the Legislature, it will also be vague. Therefore, on the contrary,  his proposed amendment will defeat the very purpose for which it is moved. It must be definite. Therefore, Sir, so far as this vagueness of word is concerned, I think  the originally proposed  word "person" is very very  definite and it leaves no room for controversy to creep in. Again the charge is that, if you say any person, there is an apprehension that any Tom, Dick or Harry may be given this power. But, Sir, I am afraid the mover has the presumption  to the extent of bringing in the folly of the people of the State who elected  the Government.  They would be so foolish as to appoint any Tom, Dick and Harry for this purpose. Well, Sir, we have the opportunity to appoint any person to be the President of India and also power is given to the Government to appoint Governor of a State. Therefore, too much  power is not given to the Government to appoint any person. Before the Government appoint any person or elect any person as President or appoint any person as Government we would see whether  the person is qualified  or responsible to hold the  post. We will go  into the factors to see that he is the right man. So the question of vagueness of the 'person' word is just the  other way round. But the second explanation of the mover is that the point to be considered does not mean any person for any other  purposes except to issue license. Here of course, point is worthy  of consideration and in fact we from the Government side his have taken a long time in considering this question of giving this power. For one thing it will serve the purpose of the mover of this amendment if I say  that by 'person' is also include the Chief Executive Member of the District Council or may include  the Secretary of the Executive Committee of the District Council  in consultation with the body concerned. It may  be found practical, it may be found to be essential  good. Therefore, as Mr. Mylliemngap has rightly said that is really a very very  right and appropriate words to enable the Government to exercise this discretion in the best way possible for the most effective  and most efficient administration of excise in this district in this district which may differ from other districts as in this district we have quite a number of different areas in which areas it may be that one person is exercising the functions  while in other areas it will be better to exercise by another person. Therefore, I can understand the apprehension because in the Budget speech we have mentioned of  the new application of the Excise Act in those particular areas. In other  areas of Khasi, Jaintia and Garo hills, the  Excise Act has been in operation for a long  long time, but because of the Supreme Court decision recently we have to operate the Act in the other areas also. Therefore, I gave assurances to the hon. Member that while choosing the person we would also see to what extend  and what type the function to be entrusted to him. We will exercise  the discretion in consultation with the District Councils in all the three  districts. As a matter of fact, we could not have brought this amendment without the consultation that we have  had with the District Council on this question and after we have full understanding with them and we have got the authority from them that we may go ahead with the  administration of Excise in the former Khasi States areas. That is the reason why we have brought this amendment. But in the actual implementation the Government Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, will exercise  discretion  in consultation with all concerned. Therefore, I would  request the and I would appeal to the hon. Member not to have  any apprehension that we will just go ahead without thinking and randomly empower any person. But we will have, as Mr. Mylliemngap has stated, that exercise  of  discretion will be as to the competency and responsibility of that person who will exercise certain functions that may be entrusted  to him and to the extent of his ability, responsibility, to the  machinery and competency, we will empower him to function. It will take  some time to implement this. With the co-operation of the Members of this House and the District  Councils, I hope we will have a very good  House and the  District Councils, I hope we will have a very  good excise  administration,  Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, a very very good control on the subject and also to ensure  prevention of the abuse of illicit manufacturers and sale of liquor. As I have stated, all of us have  agreed that  this is a great evil in the State. So, Sir, in view of this assurance that, we will be giving the functioning first with full consultation with the concerned authority in the district and also with due regard to the  responsibility, to the competency of that person or functionary  or administrative heads whatsoever, assurance, I would request the hon. Member to withdraw  the amendment.

Shri Rowel Lyngdoh : I would surely  cooperate with the Minister in view of his assurance, but I could seek one more clarification. Whether  the Government  is willing or intending to have this  word 'any person" defined  anywhere in the rules  or the notification .

Mr. Deputy Speaker : The Minister has already said that so far as this  word is concerned, he will explore  the possibility of making this  arrangement through discussion with all the concerned.

Shri Rowel Lyngdoh : With the assurance given by the Minister that he will certainly  take  the views of Members who have been elected in this Legislature, I withdraw my amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :  Has the Hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his amendment?

(Voices yes yes :)

    The amendment  is with leave of the House  withdrawn. Now I put the question before the House. The Question is that Clause 5 of the Bill do form part of the Bill. The Motion is carried. Clause  5 do form part of the Bill.

    Now the next question is that Clause 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 do form part of the Bill. The Motion is carried . Clauses 6, 7, 8, 9,10,11,12,13 and 14 do form part of the Bill.

    I now put the last question. The question is that Clause1, the  Preamble, the Enacting Formula and the Title of the Bill do form part of the Bill. The motion is carried. Clause1, of the Preamble, the Enacting Formula and the Title of the Bill do form part of the Bill.

    Now, the Minister-in-charge  to move the motion for passing.

Shri B.B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Excise) : I beg to move that the Meghalaya Excise (Amendment) Bill, 1974 be passed.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Motion moved. The question is that the  Meghalaya Excise (Amendment) Bill, 1974 be passed. (The motion was carried, and the Bill passed.).

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Let us come now to Item No.9. The Minister-in-charge of Power to present the Annual Financial Statement for the year (1974-75) of the Assam State Electricity Board.

Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Power ) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to present the Annual Financial Statement for the year (1974-75) of the Assam State Electricity Board.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Now let us pass  on to Item No.10. Mr. Pohshna to continue  the discussion but he is absent. Any hon. Members would like to participate.

Shri S.P. Swer (Sohra S.T.) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member from Nongspung who has brought this Motion before the House on the subject concerned invites, I believe, every Member to participate in the  discussion, because Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it concerns with the subject which deals  with the existence of our very  life itself. Sir, the  hon. Mover in the course of his speech, has tried  to bring out the rise of prices  by citing examples  of certain essential  commodities  in respect  of the  ruling  price of this year and that of the corresponding period of last year. He had also  tried to explain the rise of price in essential  commodities  because  of the inflation which is prevalent even in developed  countries and more so,  in an developing country like ours. But I hope that we all know about the rise of prices of all essential commodities in our sister States  or neighboring States in our country. We know that the price of rice especially, which is the stable food of our people is rising to that extent which we can really say that it becomes a problem for those people who are at the lowest strata of the society and also it concerns all of us. Sir, we know that the rise in the prices of essential commodities  is not a special  phenomenon in this State of ours but it is a national phenomenon  and if we are a little careful, if we exercise our minds to be a little  careful to have a comparative study of the prices of essential  commodities prevalent in our State and in our neighboring States, we will find that our State is in a better position compared to other States. I am saying  this especially  in respect of one particular  item rice, and another item -wheat product. It is a clear proof also that, the ruling prices of essential commodities  in our States are far  better than those in our neighboring States. The hon. Member from  Shillong Cantonment while supporting  the Motion in course of his  speech very clearly mentioned that our traders try to sell away the  rice wheat products to the neighboring State particularly to the District Kamrup. That in itself, is clear expression which proves that the ruling prices in our State are far better even than that of our neighboring State, Assam, and that is why rice and wheat  products and other commodities flow towards the District of Kamrup. Not only that, the Member  also said that they fetch good prices.  Fish flow from Shillong to Gauhati and fetch  good prices. It is a  fact that the price of fish at Gauhati is higher  than the price in Shillong. Therefore, it is a clear proof that the ruling prices in respect of essential commodities, in respect of those very important ones are far  better in our State. I do not  mean to say that there is not rise  in prices. As the hon. Member has rightly pointed out yes, there is rise in prices and we also feel that. But in respect of the price of rice, I do not agree with the hon. Member from Cantonment that the price  of rice is Rs.4.75 per kg,. because  only yesterday, I went to the Bazaar to enquire  about this, and I learnt  that the price of best rice is Rs.3.25 Kg. (Laughter). Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member from Nongtalang has gone to the extent of saying  that the price  of sugar across our international  border is Rs.18 per Kg. That also shows that the ruling price of this particular  commodity is very much high even in a foreign Country like Bangladesh.

Shri D.N. Joshi : Bangladesh does not produce  sugar. India produces sugar.

Shri S.P. Swer : That may be correct. But what I mean to say  is this. That the hon. Member, I think has had a dig on the Government of India's food policy in respect of sugar. Because there  is the levy sugar and the non-levy sugar. The levy sugar is supplied to us  through  the Food Corporation of India whereas the non-levy  sugar is sold  to the people in the open market. The price  of these  two kinds of sugar, I do not know whether we can differentiate  between the  levy sugar and the non-levy sugar : I think we cannot  differentiate, but the policy is that the levy sugar is sold through  the  FCI and through our fair price shops and the Government distribute  the sugar  to the consumers, while  the non-levy sugar is  sold in the open market. But we know for a fact that this levy sugar supplied  to the consumers is in between 100 grammes and 250 grammes a or will not be sufficient  at all, although it serves as a supplement in our daily or weekly or monthly need to some extent. Sir, I quite agree with the hon. mover of this Motion with regard to the  system of distribution. Of course it is this matter, it is necessary that the  Government should be thorough and should strengthen as far as  practicable this system of distribution and to ensure  that every  commodity supplied by the Government goes to the consumers. Sir, I would like to suggest to the Government that as far as practicable the Government also should initiate a policy on procurement  within the State. Before I resume  my seat, I would like to say that the Government is fully  seized of the problem of food and also of the problem of rising  prices  in the State. When I say so, I mean to say that the Government, as it  appears from the Budget Speech of the Finance Minister has given top most priority to agriculture  during the current year and I hope  this policy  will continue in the years to come. Since the Government  is seized  of this problem and it trying  its level to bring our State to a  level where the State  will be self-sufficient  in food, the problem of food and price will not, I hope in future  arise. With these few words, Sir, I resume my seat.

Shri Upstar Kharbuli (Malki) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also like to take part in the  discussion on this particular  motion, I feel that I must thank  the hon. Member who has brought forward this motion because  this is  a really vital issue especially in a State  like ours, which is a deficit State in respect  of food stuff. I do not like to be lengthy in my speech because I feel that all the important  factors have been touched by almost all the hon. Members who have participate  in this discussion. So, Sir, I would only come to one point,  which, I feel, has a very important role in improving the food  situation  in our State. As the hon. Member who has spoken before  me, has said, I feel that he has rightly stated that our Government should think  seriously  about improving  or setting  up some kind of procurement organisation in the State. Sir, we know there are  certain  procurement organisation in the State. Sir, we know  there are certain  areas which, if developed in a proper manner, can become the  granary of our State and is quite capable of catering to the need  of  the entire State.  And one particular  area which we all know of is  the low-lying area of the  Bhoi Area in the Khasi Hills but, as it is at present  this particular area has not been developed  or opened.  So, I feel that road net- works in this particular  area should  be improved  at a speedy  pace. We have  heard of a road  right from  Umsning to Jagiroad, but till now, it has yet been  fully commissioned but no doubt, if this road can be commissioned, it will cater very  much to  the transport  need or to ease  the transport problem so that it will be possible for the produces of this area to be brought to the markets within our State itself. We have heard earlier, during the  peak period of scarcity prevailing in the State, that there have been instances  of the growers of this area trying to bring rice  to our State but, for lack of communication, they had  to go  through Assam, by the Assam Trunk Road , i. e., Jagiroad  to Jorabat and then enter our State...........

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh (Umroi S.T.) : On a point of clarification Sir, may we know what are those  villages?

Shri U. Kharbuli : There are many villages on that side  bordering Nowgong District. The area is very fertile. If roads can be  improved  we would no longer face difficulties brining the produces to our State. I feel that there is much scope  if our Government is really earnest  to improve the situation by starting procurement drive  within the State itself. With these  few words, Sir, I resume my seat.

Shri K.M. Roy Marbaniang (Mawsynram S.T.) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while taking  part in the discussion on the motion moved by the  hon. Member from Nongspung regarding the food situation in the State  and also  about the high prices, I would, at the first instance, remind  the House that ours is a deficit State. We do not have much rice grown in our own State and so with regard to the food -stuffs like  rice, wheat, mustard oil dalda, etc, we have to bring from outside. As I have spoken on the Budget Speech after  the presentation of the Budget by the Finance Minister, I thought  we should  congratulate  the Supply Department of our State which has, with its best handling  been able to bring down the prices  at a reasonable  level in our  State though the hard working and also  with the  co-operation of the Chambers of Commerce in our State. I  do not want to go into the details which have been spoken by many hon. Members but I will give some specific  instances only as per prices  of essential commodities in our State as well  as in the  other parts of our country. Regarding rise of prices, the hon. Member from Cherrapunjee has very  correctly stated that  the position in Meghalaya in comparison with other  parts of the country is far better off. Regarding prices of sugar,  mustard oil, dalda, etc, I would  like to state that the prices of dalda per Kg. at Shillong is less than Rs.12 whereas  the prices of dalda  at Gauhati  is Rs.14 per Kg; mustard oil at Shillong  per Kg. is Rs.9 or so and at Gauhati  Rs.10/11. Regarding Sugar I do not  like to say anything since levy sugar is being  supplied by the Food Corporation of India  all over the country. Even then in Shillong, the price of non-levy  sugar per Kg. is Rs.4.20 whereas  the price of the same in Calcutta  itself is Rs.4.25 per Kg.  So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not agree  with the mover of the motion  that the prices here in Meghalaya  are much higher than  in many parts  of the country. With these few words I resume my seat.

Shri D.D. Lapang (Nongpoh S. T.) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  I join hands with my friend who has  opposed the motion. It is a fact that there us a great rice in prices of essential commodities in our State, but as  has been rightly pointed out by the hon. Member from the Cherrapunjee  that this is an All India  problem. But the Supply Department has  been trying to bring down the prices of essential commodities to a reasonable level in comparison with other  parts of the country. Recently, the Deputy Commissioner, Khasi Hills had been trying his best to set up check gates all along the G.S. Road so that the  essential commodities  like sugar, mustard oil etc, cannot be smuggled out or Transported down to Gauhati. Had the price of essential  commodities  to other parts of the country. The essential commodities would have come to this State had the prices been higher here. Therefore, it appears that the price of essential  commodities here is better  in comparison with other parts of the country. However, I do not mean to say that there is no scarcity of food-stuffs nor there is no necessity  for  bringing down the  price level to less than  what is obtaining  today. It is  also heartening no note  that we have got a buffer stock of rice  in the Khasi Hills District  for about two months. In case of any  crisis the Supply Department will provide food from that buffer stock. But one thing here I would like to suggest that the local resources  like paddy, wheat, potatoes etc. should be exploited within our State. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in this connection I would like to suggest  that we should try to improve  our road communications throughout  the State so that we can mobilize our resources from one part of the State to another. Also we should not rest in complacency since the  prices of commodities are lower here. However, it is also encouraging  that the Government of Meghalaya has taken up the  question of bringing  the railway head upto Byrnihat, four miles inside the State of Meghalaya  I hope this will improve our supply position to a great extent. With these words I oppose the motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Minister-in-charge to reply.

Shri S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister of Supply) :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am grateful that at least two or three hon. Members had pointed out that the prices here are lower taking into consideration the prices in relation with the other parts of the country and for that matter all over the world. The hon. Member from Nongspung had accused the Government for rise of prices and in stating so he had  not shown  any appreciation to the fact that in Meghalaya, for some definite  action on the part of the Government, we had been able to maintain the prices surprisingly even lower than all-India prices. May I quote Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the Consumers' Index mainly for Shillong as compared to all-India prices which we got from the  Central Statistical Organisation of the Government of India. Let us take  figures in 1973. In January, 1973-Shillong index is 193 whereas all India index is 194, in February in Shillong 185 whereas all-India 196; June in Shillong 196 whereas all-India is 211, in September 1972 in Shillong 205 where as all India is 219, in November in Shillong 214 whereas all-India 226.

(Bell rang)


ADJOURNMENT

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Time is up. The Minister will continue  his reply next day when the House  sits again. The House now stands adjourned till 9 A. M. Tuesday the 2nd July, 1974 .

R. T. RYMBAI,
Dated Shillong : Secretary,
the 1st July, 1974 Meghalaya Legislative Assembly.