Proceedings of the Winter Session of the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly held at 9.00 A.M. Wednesday, the 11th December, 1974 in the Assembly Chamber, Shillong.


Mr. Speaker in the Chair

Mr. Speaker :- Let us begin the business of the day by taking Unstarred Questions.

 QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

UNSTARRED QUESTIONS

(To which replied were laid on the Table)

Establishment of a Pre-examination Centre for competive examination

Shri. Stanlington David Khongwir asked :-

1.    Will the Chief Minister be pleased to State -

(a) Whether it is a fact that the Government have taken initiative to establish a Pre-examination Centre for coaching tribal boys and girls for competitive examinations ?

(b) If, so, the site of the said establishment ?

Shri. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :-

1.    (a) - Yes. The proposal, however, is still under consideration of the Government of India.

        (b) - Does not arise at this stage.

Shri. S.D. Khongwir :- Unstarred Question No.1 (a) whether the Government of India have agreed to the establishment of this Pre-Examination Trading Centre ?

Shri. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Government had approached the Government of India Ministry of Home Affairs, for establishing  a Pre-examination Training Centre at Shillong. Accordingly, Dr. O.K. Moorthy, Director General, Welfare of Backward Classes in the Ministry, of Home Affairs came to Shillong on 6th March, 1974 and held a meeting with representative of various parts in this region. He indicated that a Pre-examination Training Centre would be established at Shillong for the All India Services etc. examinations under the aegis of the North Eastern Hill University on the model of the training centre at Allahabad and other places for candidates belonging to Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes for these examinations. It was decided in that meeting that this Centre would be established in the first week of April, 1974 and would start coaching classes for IAS etc. examinations to be held in 1974. This was accepted by all the States and Union Territories in the North Eastern Region represented in that meeting (except Assam which was not represented and which desired to establish its own Training Centre).

        The Vice-Chancellor of the North-Eastern Hill University visited Delhi in the middle of March, 1974 to finalise the various administrative arrangements for establishing the training centre and was assured by Dr. Moorthy that this centre would be established in April 1974. Based on the developments mentioned above, this matter had also been included in the Address of the Governor of Meghalaya to the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly on 20th March, 1974.

        But, on 18th April, 1974, a telegram was received from the Home Ministry that the proposal for setting up of the Pre-examination Training Centre at Shillong was not sanctioned due to financial constraints.

        I took up this matter further by means of a D.O. letter and I also had a discussion when I visited Delhi and I was assured that this matter would be taken up for further consideration.


Zero Hour

Mr. Speaker :- Before we pass on to the next item, I have received a notice from Shri. S.D. Khongwir to take up the matter during the zero hour. Here is the notice which I have received :-

"Under Rule 49 (a) of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business, I want to raise a matter before the House pertaining to the reply of the Government to the questions that have been submitted upto the 10th instant. No questions have been replied to. If the Government takes so much time in replying to questions, it would be meaningless to put questions to the Government in future that would be permitted under Rule 49 (a).

Sd/- S.D. Khongwir"

        I have allowed that this matter be discussed today Mr. Khongwir ?

Shri. S.D. Khongwir :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is the penultimate working day of this Winter Session and from our side we have submitted questions in time and we expect that the Government should also try, their best to reply to the questions in time. I understand Mr. Speaker, Sir, that questions are very important. Our main intention is just to elicit information from the Government pertaining to some important matters and I remember, in so far as my particular questions are concerned, out of 8 or 9 questions about 4 or 5 questions were simple questions which could be dealt with within 2 or 3 days, but, still, even those questions have not come today. This, Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the penultimate working day and still Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have received only one reply from the Government side. So, if the Government will function in this way, as I have already stated in my letter, it would be meaningless for us in future, to submit any questions to get information from the Government side. As the rule does not permit to make any speech. I have just made a short speech. I think it is allowable under Rule 49 (a).

Mr. Speaker :- For information of the House I may inform that as many as 56 unstarred questions have been sent to the Government and also 4 starred questions. Today, we have been able to take up only one question which had been replied to by the Government and two more have been received but, of course, when we received them very late, they could not be taken up today. So far, out of 56 unstarred questions, only 3 have been received and out of 4 starred questions we have received practically no reply.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would also like to support the views expressed by my colleagues from Mawlai. It is most unfortunate that such a small percentage of the replies should be given to the questions that we set. I do hope, the Government realises the sense of responsibility when we put the questions to the Government, not with the intention of harassing it but in order to elicit opinions or answers for the public and ourselves. We represent certain areas, certain Constituencies, in this House, as do also the Members of the Ruling Party. But we do  hope that merely because they held such a large majority that they would not overlook but questions that have been set seriously and with a sense of responsibility. Out of 56 unstarred questions, only 3 have been answered to and out of the starred questions not one and I wonder if even 50 percent of these answers would be received in time. Further, Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a habit of sending a number of answers on the very last day when the time at our disposal is very short. It would be better if the Government intersperse the replies and give them on the other day.

Shri. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the feelings of the hon. Members and I cannot but express my regret for not sending the replies in time. I can simply assure the House, through you, Sir, that in future I would see that, as far as possible, the replies are promptly submitted by the Departments for answering in this floor. In order to be kept informed as to how many questions have been admitted by the Assembly Secretariat and relating to what Department, if I could get copies I would pay my personal attention to see that replies are promptly made.

Mr. Speaker :- I think we are very happy to hear that the Chief Minister has said and I will advise my Secretariat that in future all admitted questions should also be sent to the Chief Minister, apart from the copies that will be sent to the various Departments. I would also like to make certain observation. In fact, when the Government does not come forward with the replies the hon. Members on my left are not missing very much because they have a number of opportunities on the floor of the House for discussing, criticising or pinpointing some mistakes or lapses of the Government. I would rather sympathise with the hon. Members on my right who have rare opportunities to get incorrect information from the Government. The only best possible period through which they can really get information for the interest of the people are the questions and I do hope the seriousness of the situation will be taken note of by the Government. But I do  not agree with the mover who said that in future, if the Government does it like this there is no need to put any question at all. I think that is a very extreme view. In fact, if the Government fails to reply to the questions asked by the Member, it is a lapse on the part of the Government. In any case, I think the whole House will appreciate the attitude of the Chief Minister who has assured the House of his personal interest.

        Let us pass on to the next item in to-day's list of business, Voting on Supplementary Demand for grants.

        In the absence of the Minister-in-charge of Finance, the Chief Minister will move Grant No.1.

Shri. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.2,25,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "211 - Parliament / State / Union Territory Legislature. B - State Legislature."

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion, I put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.2,25,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "211 - Parliament / State / Union Territory Legislature. B - State Legislature."

(The motion was carried and demand passed)


VOTING ON SUPPLEMENTARY DEMAND FOR GRANTS.

The Chief Minister to move Grant No.2.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.41,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "213 - Council of Ministers".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received one cut motion which stands in the name of Shri. Upstar Kharbuli. But he is absent. So the cut motion stands automatically withdraw. Now, I put the main question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.41,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "213 - Council of Ministers".

The motion was carried and demand passed.

The Chief Minister to move Grant No.3.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.9,42,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "255 - Police, etc."

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received two cut motions on this grant. The first cut motion stands in the names of Shri. W. Syiemiong and Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh. Will Mr. Syiemiong move ?

Shri. F.K. Mawlot :- Sir, before, the hon. Member moves the cut Motion I would submit that I would also like to participate in the first cut motion so that I need not move my cut motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Is the subject-matter which you want to raise under cut motion No.2 viz, the inefficiency in administration of the Wireless Stations connected with criminal investigation ? These are two separate grievances.

Shri. F. K. Mawlot :- They are well related.

Mr. Speaker :- If they are not connected I will not allow.

Shri. Winstone Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move move that the total provision of Rs.9,42,000 under Supplementary Demand No.3, Major Head "255 - Police etc" at page 3 of the list of Supplementary Demands be reduced by Rs.100 i.e., the amount of the whole Supplementary Demand of Rs.9,42,000 do stand reduced by Rs.100.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved.

*Shri. Winstone Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, at the outset, I feel that I must commend the Government for it sense of responsibility because I feel that this scheme of modernisation of the Police Department, as envisaged in this demand, is quite appropriate. Sir, in these days crimes are mounting every day and we are all aware of that, and all sorts of crimes are being committed by the people and the hands of the police are filled with these criminal cases. So, when the Government presses this demand before the Assembly for another sum of Rs.9,42,000 I feel that it is quite alright. I feel that I shall be failing in my duty if I oppose this demand. But at the same time Sir, I feel that I shall be failing in my duty if I simply allow the demand to be passed. Sir, to cope with the crime incidences that are mounting everyday, I feel that police modernisation is not sufficient by only providing the police personnel with all the equipments that they require. What is more important, Sir, I feel is the human element. Right from 1972, I believe members of this House will agree with me that a lot has been earmarked year in and year out for modernisation of police, and looking at the dress that the police personnel are putting on at present the Meghalaya Police are really looking smart in appearance whereas compared with the equipments and amenities with which they have been provided, their performances are not up to the mark. Instances are there, Sir, especially in cases of murder where I do not know may be because of the inefficiency of the investigation force that most of the crimes committed have not been able to be solved up to this date. In many cases one will very well recognise our C.I.D. investigating personnel from a distance because from the way of their behaviour, they look as if they are themselves the criminals. The way they move and behave makes to wonder how the trained personnel behave in such a way and you cannot expect that such personnel can solve any mystery of the crime. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I feel that the Government should not attach so much importance to providing all the materials to the Police Department for the investigation of crimes. Rather to attach more important to the development of training facilities to our investigating personnel of the Police Department. They should have etiquette. Most of the police personnel do not have proper etiquette, when I say so you may say that it is unparliamentary but I would say that our police personnel are very much corrupt, though at this stage I cannot prove but I would request any of the High official of the Government or any Minister to come with me either to the interior villages or somewhere in Shillong town to see with their own eyes to what extend our police personnel are corrupted. So, Sir, until and unless we are going to change the attitude of the police personnel, I feel that it is of no use to spend so much amount of money year after year for our police Department.

Mr. Speaker :- You have charged them of corruption in the Crime investigation and you should at least give some examples by naming the persons.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have already said that if any high official of the Government or any Minister will come along with me, I would be able to point out examples of corruption of the police personnel. So I would rather invite Government officers or any of the Ministers to go with me where they can see with their own eyes.

*Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the motion moved by the Hon. Member from Nongspung. It is really heartening to see some efforts of modernisation are being made by the police administration to gear up the police machinery in the State but as the hon. Member has rightly pointed out unless we improve the human element how we can expect the police Department to utilise this modern technique. Cases of corruption need not be elaborated upon, it is known to all and sundry. Even to get appointment with the officer incharge of the least police outpost of certain police stations is difficult, the humble drivers know how risky it is even to throw a piece of biri from the jeep or cars to the road, the policemen will get hold of them.

Mr. Speaker :- I think it is not wrong to throw pieces of biris to the road.

Prof. M.N. Majaw ;- Mr. Speaker, Sir, it seems no wrong but to them (policemen) it is. Sir, the important fact raised by the hon. Member from Nongspung is regarding the behaviour of police personnel towards the society. These police personnel have not been trained even in the lowest society or they have not been trained of good manners, they still have the inheritance of the past of the domination of the conqueror over the oppressed. They inflict terror to those who happen to fall into their hands. We heard of many narrations how the victims  have been taken into the first, second and third degree of investigation behind the four walls of the police station. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I feel that that we must persuade the Government to open schools to give training on good behaviour to the police personnel. Sometimes even the members of society who occupy high and responsible position in the society are not recognised by these police personnel rather they want to exercise their powers and influence upon all the sundry.

Mr. Speaker :- I think it is the duty of the police to take action against a person of high position in the society if he commits crime.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- You are right Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am referring to a man who is innocent till they can prove his guilt. While a person is under arrest, there is no justification at all to be beaten and there are so many instances like that. Nowadays there are so many bars and there are so many places of spiritual comfort in the evening. Sometimes persons were rounded up and beaten but later on it was discovered that they were not guilty of any crime. There was a famous example some years ago at Laitumkhrah, one gentleman was running along the street (interrupted).

Mr. Speaker :- Prof. Majaw, you are talking of crimes but the point under discussion is the amount that is required for payment of the cost of the machineries and Wireless equipments, I think you should discuss the defect of these equipments.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- You are right Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are discussing now the question of modernisation of that particular machinery. In modernisation of the criminal use of the wireless telephone equipments, the persons using these equipments are human being and therefore, it is necessary to discuss here the human element how to utilise these machineries because without giving training to these police personnel how to use these equipments naturally they will not be able to use them properly. With these few words Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support the Motion.

*Shri. S.N. Koch :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the motion moved by my colleague, Shri. W. Syiemiong. In supporting this motion, I do not deny that our Police Force should have modern equipments and thing like that for modern investigation of crimes. I also agree with him that the Government so far has failed to see that the Police Force in the State should be improved. But instead the Police Force has not been properly treated and machinery cannot help in effective investigation of crimes. In this respect Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not like to take much of the time of this august House. I would only like to cite some instances as to how helpless our Police Force are ... ...

Mr. Speaker :- Mr. Koch, the demand is specific. It deals with only the cost of the machinery like wireless and other equipments. So what you have said just now is quite irrelevant. You should stick to the specific expenditure. There will be some other occasions when you will have the opportunity to discuss on the Police Force in general. Generally speaking, the motion itself should not have been allowed. During the budget session you will have scope to discuss on many things.

*Shri. S.N. Koch :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have nothing to say, but in my opinion, I have something to say about the inefficiency of the Police Department and that is connected with the investigation.

Mr. Speaker :- The main head is modernisation of criminal investigation. In fact it was through oversight that this has been allowed. It should not have been allowed at all. Anyway, I have allowed the discussion to take place, now I have to allow you also speak.

*Shri. S.N. Koch :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am thankful for enlightening me. Now, I shall speak about the criminal investigation. Sir, because I am one of the legal practitioners I have knowledge about this affair. I know how some heinous crimes had been committed and the persons concerned have been roaming at large unpunished. These are even such persons who are of international figures. None of these murderers could be punished by the Court.

Mr. Speaker :- I think Mr. Koch, this is one of the items as to how the Government can improve the method of criminal investigation. What you have said is outside the scope of this demand. If you have anything to say on this amount, then only I shall allow you to participate on this cut motion.

*Shri. Maham Singh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think what Mr. Koch has to say is about the modernisation of the machinery of Police Force and by this he means modernizing and improving the efficiency of the Police Force as a whole.

Mr. Speaker :- That is the suggestion the Government may welcome but the Government may not reply to that. I mean to say that the Members. Now, Mr. Lyngdoh.

*Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the cut motion, and I shall give instances as referred to by the mover which go to prove the inefficiency of the Police Department and its failure in the matter of investigation of crimes. In fact, Sir, I would just give some clarification on the instances last week. Because there is no telephone or wireless, the Police Force has failed to arrest the criminal. It shows that the police force has failed to investigate into the crimes committed, as it appeared in the paper. In Sonapahar one person was caught red-handed by another person. That person took cut a dagger and threatened to cut and kill the victim right before a Police Officer who did nothing but just looked on. We do not know whether the inefficiency of the Police Force is because they have no telephone or wireless, or the whole failure, as I stated, is nothing but corrupt practice.

Mr. Speaker :- Mr. Lyngdoh, if that really happened as you have stated then that was a serious failure on the part of the Police Officer. But here again, it has no connection with this demand. What you said is irrelevant.

Shri. H. Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in fact I just want to get a clarification  because in this kind of investigation, whether the failure of the Police was due to absence of wireless or whether the police officer had refused to take any action even though he got the opportunity to do so. In this light, I am really very much doubtful, whether the Police Forced even after being provided with the modern equipment will prove themselves efficient. But if equipments and modernisation will bring efficiency, we welcome the steps taken by the Government. But what is the use of giving this grant to the Police Force when the investigation of a crime which took place before the very eyes of a Police Officer, has completely failed.

Mr. Speaker :- I thinks, Mr. Lyngdoh, we shall have another time in the second cut motion when you can bring up such a case relevantly. I mean it is more relevant to discuss more in the second cut motion. 

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am happy to have indication from the Mover of this Cut Motion that the amount that has been sought for sanction by this House is a welcomed one. In this connection, I would like to inform the hon. Members, through you, Sir, that the Meghalaya Police Radio Organisation was taken over under the supervision of the Deputy Superintendent of Police (Communications) on 21st January, 1972 with a skeleton staff. It would, therefore, be appreciated that within this short period of 2 years, it is impossible to expect satisfactory functioning of this particular Department. Let us remember the time factor and also other factors connected therewith. We have come into existence as a full-fledged State only on the 21st January, 1972 and along with that the Police also came over to us. Before we came into existence as a full-fledged State, we do not have any Police Radio set up. Therefore, we have to start only from that day onwards to organise the Police Radio Organisation as far as possible. We have to take phased Programmers to organise this particular Department with the limited equipments which we got as our share from the then composite State of Assam. It will, therefore, be appreciated that it is not possible for us to get all the equipments necessary and also the personnel. For the information of the House, I will give the actual strength of the personnel in the Police Radio Organisation.

Mr. Speaker :- But, Mr. Chief Minister is this amount connected also with Police personnel.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- No, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Speaker :-Then, you need not reply.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Alright, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not going to touch that point. But, it must be remembered that when we got a separate State, naturally at the initial stage, whatever share we are to get from Assam as far as the equipments are concerned, we have to depend on that. Therefore, it is necessary for us to draw a programme to organise this particular Department in a proper way. And, in this connection, we are happy that the Government of India has come to our rescue. They are giving their financial assistance for building up our Meghalaya Police Radio Organisation along with other works. The separation of equipments from Assam Police was effected during July, 1973 only. Most of the equipments received from Assam Police were obsolete. Hence, we are taking advantage under the Modernisation Scheme sponsored by the Government of India to streamline the equipments of the Meghalaya Police Radio Organisation. We have so far given advanced training at Delhi to 16 Signal Personnel and 2 more have been sent for training in Radio Mechanism in July, 1974. We are trying to recruit more persons for advanced training in the near future along with the procurement of these machineries. I would, therefore, request the hon. Members through you. Sir, to realise that the action of the Government in this particular field is in the right direction as it was appreciated by the mover of the Cut Motion itself. And, I would request the hon. Members to give us an opportunity and let us try to equip ourselves because it is too early for the hon. Members to come to the conclusion that it is simply wastage to get all these equipments and there will be no scope to properly utilise these equipments. As I said, the actual procurement of the equipments from Assam was in July 1973. Therefore, we have to start out Police Radio Organisation with whatever equipments we have at our disposal. But it is very unfair on the part of the some of the Members to put a general remark or to condemn the Police, because as I have said, we have to start from the scratch and as such these might have been some lapses. In this connection, I would like to make it clear that it is not only through the effort of the Police that law and order situation of the State or tackling of the crimes would be possible. Let us remember that we belong to the same society from which the Police personnel are drawn. Unless we are ourselves free from corruption, from dishonesty, it will not be possible for the Police personnel along with all these equipments to tackle this particular problem. I have been requesting hon. Members in the past that we should not take this House as a forum for post-mortem examination. Mr. H.S. Lyngdoh, brought some information on the crime committed at Sonapahar. I do not know why he preferred to bring this information  to the Government only through this forum. Even the Radio fails and there is no telephone and in absence of quick communication system, a responsible Member like him should have brought this to the notice of the Government immediately. Detection of crime cannot be effectively investigated unless and until investigation can take place immediately after it occurs. Here, the co-operation of the people is essential. We simply allow that  to take place and only after the lapse of time, we simply inform the police for investigation. So, it will be very difficult for the Police to make a proper investigation. So, it will be very difficult for the Police to make a proper investigation. But if the information regarding the crime is received immediately, then only we can expect better and successful investigation. Therefore, let us not take this forum as a forum for bringing some lapses on the part of the Government agency.

Shri. S.N. Koch :- But, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think if we even bring information to the Police Officers they will hardly pay heed to our information, or otherwise, they would refuse.

Mr. Speaker :- Mr. Koch, I think the Chief Minister does not say that. But the refusal of any Police Officer in matters of that nature should be brought to the notice of the Chief Minister.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- If they refuse then bring it to the notice of the higher authority or to the Chief Minister. Therefore, I will make an appeal through you to the hon. Members to remember that the Government should be allowed to have proper equipment as far as Meghalaya Police Radio Organisation is concerned, and that this amount that will be spent for this purpose to get granted to the Government so that with these new equipments and trained personnel the Meghalaya Police Radio Organisation could function more effectively. I will therefore, request the hon. Mover to kindly withdraw his Cut Motion.

Shri. Maham Singh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the point of information whether these machineries were just usual machineries or that have been used ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Since we are going to modernise the Police administration, naturally we will put the best available equipments.

Shri. F.K. Mawlot :- But the question is specific whether the equipments which were already ordered are the new equipments or it is only to repair the same materials that we are having now.

Shri. Maham Singh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, actually my question is on the word 'modernisation' whether it means that they are modern equipments.

Mr. Speaker :- From the point of view of the Government, it must be modern, but modernisation is against the alternative term, because if we say modern in India to-day, it may be outdated in America. This is a different matter. So the Chief Minister has requested the Mover of the Cut Motion to withdraw.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- But I think there is a pending query from Mr. F.K. Mawlot on the specific question whether they were meant for new equipments or for repairing the old ones.

Mr. Speaker :- The Chief Minister has stated that they were purchased for new equipments.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- I think I would be having some answer on whether equipments to be purchased are new or not.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- These equipments are directly ordered by the Government of India through M/s. Bharat Electronics.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- As I have said, I think the answer would be new as the equipments to be purchased are new. But I gather from the reply of the Chief Minister the same old refrain that even after two years they are still in the process of organisation. I do not know to what extent this process of organisation is going on. But since we are 10 or 12 on this side as against many on the other side, I feel that I should withdraw. But one thing before I sit down, I would like to point out the case of Sonapahar which Mr. Lyngdoh has just referred. The matter was not only brought by him on the floor of the House, but he actually brought it to notice of S.P. and also reported in the newspaper. It is only because no action was taken on this report that Mr. Lyngdoh took recourse to being it to this august House.

Mr. Speaker :- That was only on incident that the Chief Minister has replied to bring to his notice in case the superior officers did not listen or take action.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- With these few words, I withdraw the Cut Motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the house to withdraw his Cut Motion.

        (Voices : Yes, Yes.) The Cut Motion is with leave of the House withdrawn. Now we come to Cut Motion No.2 to be moved by Shri. F.K. Mawlot.

Shri. F.K. Mawlot :- I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.9,42,000 under Supplementary Demand No.3, Major Head "255 - Police, etc.", at page 3 of the list of Supplementary Demand be reduced by Rs.100, i.e., the amount of whole Supplementary demand of Rs.9,42,000 do stand reduced by Rs.100.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. You can now discuss it but you should confine your discussion the inefficiency of administration of the Wireless Stations.

*Shri. F.K. Mawlot :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have no intention to blame the Police Department or the Government but my intention on this Cut Motion is only to pin point the inefficiency of the Wireless Stations in different parts of the State. I am glad that this amount of Rs.9,42,000 was asked to be sanctioned for the modernisation of Police Administration. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope with this amount, the Police will be able to investigate the cases as well as improve the character of investigation by trained persons as the hon. Member from Nongspung has said that our Police Personnel are corrupted monetarily and that moral corruption, no one can deny. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not want to take the time of the House in discussing what is moral corruption and what is monetary corruption. My intention is only to pinpoint the practice and working of the wireless stations. I have had the occasion to contact the Police Department in some cases and I found that most of the Wireless stations do not have sufficient petrol to run the machinery.

Mr. Speaker :- You mean wireless van or station ?

*Shri. F.K. Mawlot :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, wireless stations require petrol of generating the machineries, even the amount of 5 or 6 litre of petrol they do not have at hand. This is because of the inefficiency of the administration. I was told that the officer-incharge of the Police Station cannot directly indent any requirement of petrol from the very place where he is stationed unless and until he comes to the headquarters and requests the person incharge for the same. But it is not so with other Departments. For example, a Block Development officer who was allotted with a vehicle for his own use, can purchase sufficient quantity of petrol directly. But the Police office in the same station cannot directly indent petrol or ask the persons because his hands are tied. So sometimes due to lack of petrol for the machineries, the investigation also fails. Mr. Speaker, Sir, only yesterday, the Chief Minister had the occasion to give a reply to the debate which we had in the past few days, that the information which was given by the hon. Members in the House were investigated. But now the Chief Minister has said that if the case is not investigated immediately, then the investigation cannot get into the real picture of the case because it was delayed. So I fully agree with the Chief Minister that if the case is delayed it will only lead to so many complications. So Mr. Speaker, Sir, if that incident at Sonapahar which was referred to by the hon. Member from Pariong failed, it was because that very officer who was present at that time did nothing about it; he was afraid because he has not sufficient staff, at least if he would have done something. There is one Wireless Station at Sonapahar. And I am sure if the officer-in-charge could bring the incident to the higher authority in time, that is at Shillong, something would have been done. I presume that the failure is due to the non-working of the Wireless Station. Of course, at that time, I knew that the wireless station that they have at Nongstoin Police Station has got no petrol and the battery was weak they cannot utilise the machine because of its weakness. Well Mr. Speaker, Sir, if we have one Station, at least we should have enough personnel to man the machinery and enough spare parts so that in time of emergency we can utilise it. I have had the occasion to report to the Police personnel here in Shillong one incident that took place in my village. Of course, I am grateful to the Police officers who were much helpful but their helpfulness was rather helpless because the wireless station was not working.

Mr. Speaker :- So from your experience, the whole contention is that there is no petrol in the Wireless Station.

*Shri. F.K. Mawlot :- Even petrol that is necessary for important work is not given. We have got this amount and when this amount is granted, I hope the Government will do its best to equip the Police personnel with modern equipments so that they can function more effectively in the matter of investigation of crimes.

Shri. Upstar Kharbuli :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to support this cut motion. In supporting it I would like to make a few observations. As the hon. Member was moved this motion has just pointed out the several drawbacks or the reason for the lagging behind of this particular Department of the Police, I also feel that one of the reasons why this particular Branch of the Police could not function efficiently, may be because appointments or postings of officers who are responsible in this particular Branch were made not by giving due weightage to their technical knowledge but rather by following the normal procedure of the Government offices. The officers also are not trained properly. Whether they are fully equipped with technical knowledge or not. I feel that in order to improve their efficiency in this particular Branch, they should be technically trained. Government also should give more weightage in making appointments to such responsible posts by taking their (officers) technical experience into consideration. So these are the only points I would like to mention.

Mr. Speaker :- Will the Chief Minister clarify the points raised regarding petroleum and batteries of the Wireless Stations ? Of course, the second point raised by Mr. Kharbuli was regarding appointment of personnel in Wireless Stations that due weightage along with technical know-how of the persons must be taken into consideration rather than following the normal procedure of appointments as in other Government Departments. These are the only two points.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- As you know our Police Wireless Stations are located in the far flung areas where we do not have petrol pumps and as such, there may be occasions for shortage of petrol. There was also complaint of officers not using petrol properly. There have been restrictions for use of petrol and instructions have been issued on proper use of petrol, however this matter will be looked into. About batteries also, this matter will also be looked into and action will be taken to improve all equipments of our Police Radio Organisation. They should be well-kept and should be in running condition. We have to overcome all these inefficiencies. Now as far as the personnel is concerned. I would like to inform the House also that we do not have technical experts. Now we are in the process of sending personnel for training for this particular job and for this purpose, and we are sending them batch by batch. We do not have persons from open market, but we have to get personnel from the Government of Assam on deputation. Just like in other Departments unless and until the Government of Assam is in a position to give us the required number of personnel for this particular set up, it will be possible for us to have such personnel from the open market. This is why we have taken action to train our own people so that we can man this Organisation properly. I do not think there is any other points to be covered.

Mr. Speaker :- These are the only points.

Shri. Upstar Kharbuli :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think my points have not been made clear. I did not mean the operators of this particular Branch. I mean the officer-in-charge who are supposed to administer.

Mr. Speaker :- You say about the officers in-charge of Station. But here your cut motion is about the Station and not the whole organisation.

Shri. Upstar Kharbuli :- Sir, another thing is that the mover has clearly indicated that we would discuss about the inefficiency in administration in this particular Branch.

Mr. Speaker :- The administration of the wireless Station ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Radio Organisation has their own separate cadre. As I said, at the initial stage we had to depend upon the personnel from Assam. Therefore, we are not taking action to get our own people trained. Naturally, as far as possible we have to get our men trained according to the qualification. That is why we have taken advanced action to get our people trained. Therefore, I request the hon. Mover of the cut motion to kindly withdraw.

Shri. Francis K. Mawlot :- As I have no intention to oppose the amount, I withdraw the cut motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the house to withdraw his cut motion.

        (Voices - yes, yes). The Cut Motion is with leave of the house withdrawn.

        Now I put the main question before the House. The question, is that an additional amount of Rs.9,42,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head - "255 - Police, etc.".

(The motion was carried and demand passed).

Mr. Speaker :- Now the Chief Minister to move Grant No.4.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Shri. S.N. Koch :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a point of order.

Mr. Speaker :- Will you not allow him to move the Grant even ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg that an additional amount of Rs.1,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "259 - Public Works".

Mr. Speaker :- Now, Mr. Koch, what is your point of order ?

Shri. S.N. Koch :- My point of order is that here there is a question of classification of the head of account ?

Mr. Speaker :- It is not a point of order. I have not received any cut motion from you through which you may move against the Demand. Now since there is no cut motion, I put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.1,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "259 - Public Works".

(The motion was carried and Demand passed)

Mr. Speaker :- Now the Chief Minister to move Grant No.5.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.38,250.00 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "265 - Other Administrative Services - I - Civil Defence and Home Guards".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received two cut motions in the name of Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh and Shri. Enowell Pohshna. Now Mr. Hopingstone Lyngdoh to move his cut motion.

Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.38.250 under Supplementary Demand No.5 Major Head "265 - Other Administrative Services - I - Civil Defence and Home Guards" at page 5 of the list of Supplementary Demands be reduced to Re.100, i.e. the amount of the whole Supplementary demand of Rs.38.250 do stand reduced to Re.1.00.

Mr. Speaker :- Now you may raise a general discussion.

(At this stage Hon'ble Speaker left the Chamber and the Deputy Speaker took the Chair)

Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to discuss about the admissibility of making such a provision as demanded by the Government. Sir, the organisation of the Home Guards, and Civil Defence in the State is really very essential. I have seen, Sir, that these Home Guards in other States are rendering very good services for the State and the people as we have seen, for instance along the border of Khasi-Jaintia Hills with Kamrup and Mikir Hills in Assam. The Assam Government has stationed the Home Guards along the border to protect the boundary of the State against any encroachment into their territory. Sir, they are also helping the Government in preventing unauthorised encroachment into their boundary. They are always behind the people in their day to day movement. But Sir, here in this new State of ours, within these three 3 years we have not yet been able to do anything that may be the reply from the Minister. But Sir, I happen to come in contact with the Civil Defence Organisation and I myself advocate the need of these Home Guards and Civil Defence to be organised in the State. Now for the present, in Khasi Hills there is one Civil Defence organisation with its headquarter at Umsning - only in one Block. I have learnt from the officers that certain schemes have been submitted to the Government but no attention has been paid or interest shown by the Government towards these schemes and programmes. It seems Sir, the policy and programme of the Government of India is to encourage Home-Guards and Civil Defence Organisation in all the States so that our local inhabitants in their day to day life will be given an aegis and will be looked after carefully. But, Sir, we have seen that in the last two years, our Government or the Government of India has not done anything in favour of the proposal. I believe it may be due to that expression from the Chair that there should not be any doubt about 'but' and 'if'. We move this cut motion because the Government has not yet realised the needs of setting up those organisations in the block level. This provision which has been demanded by the Government is meant only for Jaintia Hills. I wonder how the Government of India realises the need of having this organisation in Jaintia Hills only. But we felt it necessary to have such organisation o Homeguards and Civil Defence in the other two districts also in the interest of State as a whole. If Sir, this fund which has been demanded and sanctioned by the Government of India is only meant for a sample organisation in Jaintia Hills, i.e., Jowai, why this sample ? Why not a full-scale organisation ? And I do not see any reason why the same cannot be set up for the other two districts also. While moving this cut motion, therefore, I would rather differ as to the admissibility of this grant. I move this cut motion only with this contention because the services of the Homeguards are badly needed in every nook and corner of our State. But it seems there is no interest shown at all by the Government either at the State or at the Centre to respond to this important task of national interest. I am afraid, Sir, if this is only a sample organisation to train out. Homeguards in Civil Defence, I strongly differ with this policy of the Government. With these few words Sir, I move my cut motion.

Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to supplies this cut motion moved by the hon. Member from Pariong. In this connection, Sir, it is shown under the Explanatory Note that this amount is immediately required for setting up of organisations of Homeguards and Civil Defence in the Jaintia Hills District. My question question now is whether such organisation have been organised in the other two districts or not. Apparently, those organisations might have existed but we want to know what is the number of Homeguards that have recruited - how many organisations have been set up in the other two districts of our State. Sir, as we know, there have been many Village Defence Parties in the Khasi hills as well as some in the Jaintia Hills, and I think if the Government wants to raise more homeguards organisations they can do so by drawing the personnel from those the Village Defence Parties. Moreover, Sir, I feel that this organisation should be extended to the interior areas so that more units may be established as rightly pointed out by the hon. Member from Pariong. He has also suggested the need of setting up those organisations in every Block headquarters and the members of the Homeguards Organisation should be treated as paid Government servants. Of course, I am not so conversant with the rules and regulations of the Homeguard procedure in the State. But I know for sure that it is required to assist the police personnel and the police force in the border areas and in the State as a whole. Sir, with these few words, I support this cut motion.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am happy to learn that both the mover and the supporter of the cut motion welcome the idea of setting up of Home Guards Organisation in our State. Mr. H.S. Lyngdoh, however, has stressed the need of setting up of this organisation throughout the State and complained that the amount demanded is meant for Home Guards Organisation to be set up in the Jaintia Hills District only and not in Khasi Hills and Garo Hills Districts. In reply, I may inform the Hon. Member that in Khasi and Garo Hills Districts such organisations already exist. The hon. Member is aware of the fact that the Jaintia Hills District has been raised to a separate Civil District only after Meghalaya has come into being. As such prior to this, the Home Guards Organisation of the Khasi Hills District also covered Jaintia Hills which was then a Sub-Divisional of the Khasi and Jaintia Hills District. After the creation of the new District of Jaintia Hills. It was considered desirable to set up separate Home Guards and Civil Defence Organisations for this new district and accordingly there had been occasions to discuss its matter with the Director General of Civil Defence and Home Guards, Government of India during his visit to Shillong. The Director - General has agreed in principle to the setting up of the Home Guards Organisation in Jaintia Hills District. However, as far as the Civil Defence Organisation is concerned, we have been definitely told that Jowai town is not in the approved list of the Government of India and, as such, setting up of Civil Defence Organisation at Jowai could not be agreed to Shillong and Tura are in the approved list and as such, Civil Defence Organisations could be set up only in these two towns. We have, therefore, submitted our proposal to the Government of India for setting up of the Home Guards Organisation in Jaintia Hills. Formal approval of the Government of India was received rather late, and, as such, it was not possible to include this item of expenditure in this account while preparing the budget for the current year. All expenditure in connection with Civil Defence and Home Guards on admissible items are re-imbursible on cent percent basis. In view of this, we want to set up that organisation within the current financial year.

        It is not a fact, as the hon. Member has misunderstood that this organisation would be placed under the Police Department although this voluntary organisation of Home Guards is raised to supplement the ordinary police force. Personnel of the Home Guards are required to undergo a course of training for a short period which includes foot drill, arms drill and etc. and they are called upon to assist the ordinary police force and to discharge other duties assigned to them during emergency. It has also been suggested by both the mover and the supporter of the cut motion that the Home Guards organisation should be set up at every Block level and throughout the State. In this connection, I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Members to one important fact, that is, regarding the lack of response on the part of the trained personnel of the Home Guards to turn up for duty whenever they are called upon to do so. As I have stated earlier, the personnel of the Home Guards are allowed to go back to their respective villages after the completion of the training, unless there arises an occasion to utilise their services. From my personal experience in Garo Hills, I find that the personnel of the Home Guards do not generally turn up whenever they are summoned for duty. This is one of the defects I find in my district. Whenever we want to utilise their services and summon them, they do not turn up for duty. After they go back home, they do not like to come back for duty whenever they are asked to do so. Therefore, in spite of our desire to have this organisation set up at every Block level, unless and until we are in a position to obtain the trained personnel of the Home Guards, it will serve no purpose. We should, therefore, take enough interest in this organisation so that we can make use of their services whenever occasion arises. I hope the hon. Member will try to help the Government in getting their services for which they have been trained. Since the only pertinent point raised by the mover of the motion is that this amount is asked only for Jaintia Hills, and not for Garo Hills and Khasi Hills, and since I have already cleared this point, I would request him to kindly withdraw the cut motion.

Shri. H.S. Lyngdoh :- Mr point, Sir, is whether this organisation is simply to be set up and not at all to serve the needs of the people and give effective service to the State ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :-  I have already replied to that. My suggestion is that the same organisation was raised in my district in Garo Hills and may be in Khasi Hills also. Even though we give them training, they cannot be absorbed permanently. But we use their services whenever the occasion arises or in any particular emergency. After training, they are supposed to go back to their respective villages. I find that in spite of the fact that they have received proper training for a few months, when they go back they lose their in the job and forget about it. It is in this connection that I have requested the hon. Member to emphasise the need for extending their help, for persuading those trained personnel to make their services available whenever occasion arises. It is in this way we can utilise their trained services. With these few words, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think I have made myself clear on the points raised by the mover and the supporter of the motion, and in view of the fact of this own appreciation for such organisation, I request him to kindly withdraw his cut motion.

Shri. H.S. Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, after hearing the reply given the Chief Minister and the fact that this Home Guards organisation is very very essential for our State and also because of the fact as stated by the Chief Minister that this Home Guards organisation would be a reserve force that may be needed in time of emergency in the State, I am fully convinced. Sir, he has also explained to us the necessity for these persons to undergo training in discipline and further training will be given to them about the society, I feel it is a good thing. In fact, Sir, if we could give training to all young people of the State, both boys and girls, then our future generation will also be disciplined. So with the reply of the Chief Minister, I am quite satisfied. But one thing more is there Sir. The Government should see that the Home Guards. Organisation should be further expanded in the State and this should be done at the earliest. With these few words, Sir, I withdraw my Cut Motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his Cut Motion ?

(Voices : Yes, yes)

        So the Cut Motion is with the leave of the House withdrawn. But there is another Cut Motion on the same subject which stands in the name of Shri. H. Enowell Pohshna. Mr Pohshna to move.

Shri. Enowell Pohshna :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.38,250 under Supplementary Demand No.5, Major Head "265 - Other Administrative Services - I - Civil Defence and Home Guards", at page 5 of the list of Supplementary Demands be reduced to Re.1.00, i.e., the amount of the whole Supplementary Demand of Rs.38,250 do stand reduced to Re.1.00.

        Sir, while moving this Cut Motion, I regret to express my weakness about these terms such as Civil Defence, Village Defence Party and Home Guards Organisation. There are not so very clear to me and so also to most people. We know that these three different organisations are in different parts of the country and the people have to co-operate with these three organisations. Therefore, why I move this Cut Motion is because it is written there that this amount is to meet the immediate expenditure in connection with the setting up of the Home Guards Organisation in the Jaintia Hills District". I am not clear whether this Home Guard Organisation has been set up in Jaintia Hills or not because in the annual Budget that has been voted by the Assembly last time the amount was to the tune of Rs.7,62,000.

(Voices - That is for Garo Hills and Khasi Hills)

Shri. H. Enowell Pohshna :- Well it may not be for Garo Hills and Khasi Hills. Anyway, Sir, if the Home Guard Organisation is already set up, that means it has got no relation with the Village Defence Party.

(Voices- No, No)

Shri. H. Enowell Pohshna :- But I do now know whether it has been set up or whether it is going to be set up.

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) :- It will be set up when we get the money. How can we get up without any money.

Shri. H. Enowell Pohshna :- That means when we get money this Home Guard Organisation will be there. But my point is to discuss the existence of the Home Guards Organisation in Jaintia Hills. Whether it existed or not. I want a clarification from the Chief Minister.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Just now we have said that we will set it up when we get the money. So, it is not existing. When we get the money, then we will set up the Organisation.

Shri. H. Enowell Pohshna :- What I want to know is whether this Organisation will be set up immediately or not. I will cite one example. We got the money for the building of Jowai College since about 3 or 4 years back but even now there is no building. So I want to know whether this Organisation will be set up immediately after getting the money. As the Minister Agriculture said that they will set it up as soon as the money is granted. We also want to know who will be the Captain or the Head of this Home Guard Organisation. Therefore, with this Cut Motion I want to get the assurance that this Organisation will be set up immediately as soon as Government gets the money. I think the money is already there because as we know the Supplementary Demand is part of the budget and the money is already spent.

        Therefore, the reason given by the other side of the House that as soon as we get the money the Home Guard Organisation would be set up. But I don't think this is the cause of the demand because the money is always there. I don't think that there is no sufficient grant for it. Anyway while moving this cut motion I would request the Chief Minister to kindly clarify the different functions of these three Organisations - i.e., Civil Defence, Village Defence Party and Home Guard Organisation. But what has been answered by the Agriculture Minister is also the answer of the Government that as soon as the money is received they are going to set up the Organisation and as I said I don't think that money is the reason because money is already there. Therefore, in so far as Village Defence is concerned, it  appears money is not the reason and I found that one MLG Jeep is also there for the purpose. I think it is a necessity to give employment to unemployed M.L.As to make the party stable. This is done also in Garo and Khasi Hills. But Sir, who will be the head of this Home Guard Organisation ? It has been replied that organisation is going to be set up as soon as the money is received. So with these few words, Sir, I only want to express my desire to get the understanding about the different functions of these three organisations because so long, I was thinking that these organisations have already been set up in some other way like the one in Jowai... Sir, this is my weakness.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Well Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the question of weakness does not arise here. Their nature of work is different i.e., among Home Guard, Civil Defence and Village Defence. I would like to tell the hon. Member that I am not going to be his teacher. Therefore, I would leave it to the hon. Member himself to understand their difference. Well as far as Home Guard is concerned it is a national set up for the whole country and it is under the Ministry of Home Affairs. But as far as Village Defence is concerned, it is the organisation to assist the Police. And Civil Defence is confined to certain selected towns and this organisation is to look after activities during emergency periods. Well I am not going into the details since I have said that I am not going to be a teacher and I do not want the hon. Member to be my student. But whatever amount is to be spent for the organisation of Home Guards is made available by the Government of India. And before you  can ask for the reimbursement the amount should be budgeted in the State Budget and with that provision we should proceed to reimburse the amount as it was made available from the Government of India. And after we actually incur the expenditure. Therefore, there should be no apprehension that this provision fund is for the sake of provision. If we want to get the money from the Government of India we should actually incur that amount as provided in the State Budget. Therefore, if the hon. Member who have moved this cut motion is really anxious that a certain organisation should also set up in his District I hope he would withdraw his cut motion.

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- Yes, I always when the Chief Minister requests me so .... (laughter) ...

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Now I put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.38,250 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31stMarch, 1975 for the administration of the head "265 - Other Administrative Services - I - Civil Defence and Home Guards".

(The motion was carried and Demand passed).

Now Grant No.6 - I request the Chief Minister to move.

Shri. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.2,500, be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "265 - Other Administrative Services - IV- Census, Vital Statistics, Guest Houses, etc".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion, I put the question before the house. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.2,500 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during he year ending 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "265 - Other Administrative Services - IV - Census, Vital Statistics, Guest Houses, etc.".

(The motion was carried and demand passed).

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Now we come to grant No.7. I request Chief Minister to move ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.8,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "283 - Housing - II - C - Government Residential Building (in charge of Public Works Department)".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion, I put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.8,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "243 - Housing - II - C - Government Residential Building (incharge of Public Works Department)."

(The Motion was carried and demand passed).

        Now may I request the Minister, Industries to move Demand No.8 ?

Shri. S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Industries) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.61,500 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "296 - Secretariat - Economic Services - II - Planning Boards and Attached Offices."

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received one cut motion which stands in the name of Shri. Pohshna, I request him to move his cut motion.

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.61,500 under Supplementary Demand No.8 Major Head "296 - Secretariat - Economic Services - II - Planning Boards and attached Offices" at page 8 of the list of Supplementary Demand be reduced to Re.1, i.e., the amount of the whole Supplementary Demand of Rs.61,500 do stand reduced to Re.1.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Motion moved. Now you can raise a discussion.

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- Now by this motion I want to get the information about the progress of the schemes undertaken by the Government under the head "Sericulture and Weaving" under "Half-a-million Jobs Programme".

Shri. S.D.D. Nichols-Roy (Minister, Industries) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the schemes for trainees in Sericulture and Weaving under the "Half-a-million Job Programme" was taken up in 1973-74. 17 trainees already selected joined the course in three Sericulture Farms and two in Weaving Training course. In Shillong Sericulture Farm there were 4 trainees who joined on the 15th December, 1973. Under Ummulong Sericulture Farm three trainees joined the course. One left the course without completion of training on the same date, i.e., on 15th February, 1973. Then under Tura Sericulture Farm two trainees joined on 19th December, 1973. One left  the course without completion of training. Three trainees joined the Weaving training course in Shillong on 15th December, 1973 and five joined the course of Weaving training in Tura on 15th December, 1973, 17th December 1973, 18th December, 1973, 2nd January 1974 and 3rd January 1974.

        The trainees in sericulture numbering 7 completed their course on 31st March, 1974 and they were subsequently absorbed as Rearers with effect from 1st April, 1974. The Trainees in Weaving (numbering 8) continued their course for a further period of 3 months in the current year for the purpose of intensive practical study. They have already completed the course on 30th June 1974 and subsequently absorbed in the Department as Weaving Demonstrators with effect from 1st July, 1974. The amount needed now is for the additional 3 months of this year for their stipends. We were earlier not informed whether this scheme would be continued this year and that is why it was not put in the Budget. After hearing this clarification. I request the Mover to withdraw his Cut Motion.

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- With the clarification of the Minister-in-charge I beg to withdraw my Cut Motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his Cut Motion ? (Voices - Yes, yes)

        The Cut Motion is with the leave of the House withdrawn. Now I put the main question. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.61,500 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "296 - Secretariat - Economic Services - II - Planning Boards and attached offices".

(The motion was carried and demand passed)

        Now, let us come to Demand No.9 to be moved by Minister-in-charge of Animal Husbandry.

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Animal Husbandry) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg, Sir, to move that an additional amount of Rs.1,50,000 be granted the to Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st march, 1975, for the administration of the head "310-Animal Husbandry".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received one Cut Motion which stands in the name of Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh and Shri. D.N. Joshi.

Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.1,50,000 under Supplementary Demand No.9, Major Head "310 - Animal Husbandry" at page 10 of the List of Supplementary Demand, be reduced by Rs.100, i.e. the amount of the whole Supplementary Demand of Rs.1,50,000 do stand reduced by Rs.100.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Motion moved. Now you can raise discussion.

Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh :- Sir, in moving this Cut Motion I have only few points. Firstly, we are grateful to the Danish Government for giving us this gift, though of course, we do not know what the items are. But we can take it for granted these are meant for the development of cattle and dairy farming in our State which were set up under Indo - Danish Project. But, Sir, I am sorry to point out that I have learnt that as many as 3 cattle have died. More might have died but of course I have only that much information. So, Sir, this reflects that there was lack of care and also inefficiency on our part for the development of the type of farming because only after a few months of these cattle have been brought here that they have died. It is possible that some more may die within these few months and I do not know whether this Government has any information in regard to checking the diseases. Moreover, Sir, I understand that there is not a good relation between the Danish experts and our officials. This may be the reason why the cattle died. If this is the case, Sir, I think it is wasteful because we have to pay a lot of custom duties for foreign equipment and it does not benefit our State at all. So, I would urge upon the Government to be more vigilant in looking after the cattle and also in ensuring that our officials have proper co-ordination with these foreign experts who are willing to help teach and demonstrate to us about cattle farming and daily development. I understand , Sir, that some of the items which were received as gifts re available in our country and the cost of those items though they are gifts items in such that the sum of money on custom or excise duties is higher than what we pay in our country. So, Sir, it is very strange and though my information may not be very accurate, it is expected that the Government should look into the matter and see that equipments available locally should not be brought. We would, however, be very glad to get only those foreign items which are not available in the country. With these few words, Sir, I move this Cut Motion.

(Shri. E. Bareh and Shri. W. Syiemiong stood up).

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- I support the Cut Motion.

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Animal Husbandry) :- No, Sir, he said that after I stood up and so there is no point. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not going to reply because nobody stood up to support the Cut Motion.

Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Sir, the Minister will get his chance to reply.........

(Interruption)

Shri. Maham Singh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before the Minister replies we support the cut motion. (Laughter).

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- If the Minister is afraid to reply, we can give him concession. (laughter).

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Any other hon. Member ?

Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Sir, the Cut Motion is before the floor of the House and we support it. Moreover, Sir, we would like to get a reply from the Minister to what the mover of the Cut Motion has said i.e., regarding the fact that so many cattle have died. We have also learnt from other sources that some cattle have died at Delhi where they were carried for a Cattle Show there. So, Sir, we would like to know how much money was spent for carrying these cattle to Delhi.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- The main contention of the mover is abut the utilisation and implementation of the Danish equipments by the Department concerned.

Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- That is why Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, they are not to be carried to Delhi unless they carry the equipments.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Now I call upon the Minister-in-charge to give the reply.

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister-in-charge of Veterinary) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a fact that two cattle died in this is due to the sudden change of climate because they have not been accilimatised with the local climate and atmosphere of this area. As far as the point raised by the hon. mover of the motion is concerned that due to lack of proper care these cattle died, we cannot say the reason because great care has been given to them under the supervision of the Danish experts and I am happy to say that so far there is no wrong with our cattle and we have now 58 cows our of 60, and also I will not say that there is no good relationship between the Danish Experts and our officers. They are always in good relationship and they are working together as brothers. Another point raised by the hon. Member is that there are some items of the equipments available in our country which are cheaper than the foreign equipments. I do not know, but it is not correct to say that because certain articles or equipments are available in our country, nobody likes to have foreign goods. For instance wrist-watches are available in our country but some people are wearing foreign made wrist-watches. I would also like to make it clear to the hon. Member that these equipments have not yet been received by the Department; they are still lying with the Customs department of the Government of India, and as such, we cannot say right now what items are there inside the consignments. Only after we received the consignments we will be able to check up and then know what items which are available in our own country. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the information of the hon. Member, two cattle died but not as speculated, due to the food and mouth disease also and recently some experts have come right from Denmark to study the causes of death of these cattle and also to help us in treating the remaining cattle.

Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- What about one cattle which died at Delhi ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Animal Husbandry) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, I request the hon. Member to be patient, I will come to that point.

        (At this stage the Deputy Speaker vacated the chair and the Speaker occupied it)

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Veterinary and Animal Husbandry) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, regarding the one cow that died at Delhi it was not a Danish cow. No Danish cows have been taken to Delhi. All cows taken to Delhi are not Departmental cows. The one that died at Delhi also was the cow which belonged to one agriculturist from Mawlai. We took that cow to Delhi for the Livestock show because we have found it to be the best cow in Shillong but unfortunately it died there due to some infections.

(Voices from the Opposition - Because of defect in the equipment)

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Veterinary and Animal Husbandry) :- How can you say that due to defect in the equipments when they have not been received by us. It may be because of strenuous journey it got the disease.

(Voices from the Opposition - Due to negligence)

Mr. Speaker :- You should rather confine to the main points raised to the mover of the cut motion and not to the causes of death of the cow at Delhi.

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Veterinary etc) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, they want a reply to that.

Mr. Speaker :- It may be because the Deputy Speaker allowed them to speak because the instance has come to the notice of the House, and as the Minister-in-charge, you should reply only to the points raised by the hon. Members which are relevant to this grant.

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Veterinary etc) :- Alright I have replied to all points raised by the mover of the cut motion and I hope that the mover is satisfied with the reply. I would therefore request the hon. Member to come to my table where we can talk about the subject. So Sir, I request the mover of the motion to withdraw his cut motion.

Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am thankful to the Hon'ble Minister for enlightening me about the cattle which died in the initial stage but I do not know in what way there was a good relationship between the Danish  Experts and the Government Officers, because I learnt Sir, that the Danish Experts had sent their complaint to their Embassy. I do not know the position now. It may be that they have removed that particular Government officer. However Sir, after hearing the reply of the Minister, I withdraw my Cut Motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his Cut Motion ?

(Voices - Yes). The Cut Motion is with leave of the house withdrawn.

Mr. Speaker :- Now Mr. D.N. Joshi to move his Cut Motion.

Shri. D.N. Joshi :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.1,50,000 under Supplementary Demand No.9, Major head "310 - Animal Husbandry" at page 10 of the list of Supplementary demand be reduced by Rs.100, i.e., the amount of the whole Supplementary Demand of Rs.1,50,000 do stand reduced by Rs.100.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved and now you can initiate the discussion and you are to confine your observation only to the points indicated.

Shri. D.N. Joshi :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you very much for allowing me to initiate the discussion on the desirability or otherwise of having these equipments. Actually at this stage the graziers are suffering a lot due to the indifference on the part of the Government towards ameliorating the sufferings they are now under-going. Now Sir, under the Supplementary Demand under have - Police Wireless Organisation, some members expressed the doubt whether the foreign equipments are modern. While we want to modernise our Departments...........(interruption).

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not say about importing equipments.

Shri. D.N. Joshi :- Here also I have a great doubt if the equipments we received as gifts from a foreign country are modern. They may be obsolete but for us the developing country, they may of course be modern. But I would like to inform the hon. House through you, Sir, that India, our country has made a great headway on modern equipments of various kinds in various fields and especially in daily business also we are, as the hon. House would like to know, producing highly sophisticated equipments, and I do not know why these equipments which are already available here in our country, produced by our own firms indigenously....

Mr. Speaker :- Mr. Joshi, I think you must not have such views express here. Actually the kind of statement should have been made in Parliament and not here in the Assembly. The scheme was an agreement reached between the Danish Government and the Government of India to establish a project here. And now you are actually criticising the policy of the Government of India on the floor of the house. I should not have allowed that. You may say why Government of Meghalaya should accept at all the proposal to establish the project here.

Shri. D.N. Joshi :- Yes, Sir. Now while we find in the demand that the total cost of the equipment is Rs.1,50,250, the actual amount already spent through contingency fund, is Rs.1,50,000; by way of paying to customs and for transportation. The equipments costing Rs.1,50,250 of rupees have to be brought from another country over here incurring huge expenditure, but with this amount we could have bought those equipments and many of such other equipment from here, our own country. So I do not know on what consideration this Government of ours had expended so much amount when the equipments could have been purchased from our own country at a lesser cost. Ours is a new State, a poor State. We should see that the equipments are purchased as far as practicable with lesser amount. But by accepting this project here in Meghalaya, we have incurred expenditure unnecessarily and more so when we actually require more money for other projects for our graziers and our farmers. We have to spend this amount for all these equipments which may be of no utility at all to this State of ours.

        In Upper Shillong Farm I saw the cattle were kept in every unhygienic condition thereby causing to the cows; some died and many of these cattle are now suffering from this disease because of the improper care and negligence on the part of the officers concerned. I am afraid I may also put the blame on the foreign experts who came over here from a foreign country. Ours is a poor State; we cannot afford to spend huge amount for this project which has not yielded good results.

Mr. Speaker :- Mr. Joshi, while making any remark, I think you should not be one-sided or take one-sided view of the matter. Even though one State is poor, should we not go in for project for creating assets to enrich our own State.

Shri. D.N. Joshi :- Yes, Sir, we must make our State rich; but we should not depend so much on foreigners. In our own State, we have one farm where jersey cows are being kept. Here each cow gives more than 15 litres of milk a day. I have a Khasi cow which produces more than 6 litres of milk a day. But in Upper Shillong Farm each imported  cow gives not more than 6 litres of milk a day. That is the average production of milk by these cows. So, I do not find any desirability of having these equipments and this big project here. We did not get the actual return which we wanted.

        Another thing connected with this matter in the lot of our poor graziers who have been serving us from time immemorial. In this particular demand I do not see any benefit for these graziers who are keeping the indigenous cows so that they may not suffer. They should have been provided with a grazing i.e., farm graziers colony, where from they may get grass for their cattle. We have no project to help our own age-old graziers and farmers, while a big project on which huge amount has been spent is here which may not benefit the State at all. In order to increase food production, we have to see that the graziers do not come into a clash with the farmers and we want to increase milk reserve here because Meghalaya offers a very good scope for this. But we spent all the money for this big project yielding no result and we totally ignore those people actually producing the bulk of milk we need, thereby we also ignore the main production of Meghalaya from its and indigenous sources. Regarding the contractors who are supplying milk to Meghalaya the Meghalaya Government is giving them the rate lower than the rate given by the Government of Assam to other contractors who are supplying milk to Gauhati from Meghalaya. So there is a sense of frustration among those people who are serving the people of Meghalaya. I have requested this Government a number of times to look into this matter seriously so that our people who are serving the interest of Meghalaya should really be benefited and at the same time through the running of the Chilling Plant here at Naya Bungalow we can get something for our exchequer. Thousands of litres of milk are allowed to go down to Gauhati with no income whatsoever to the State. I have given a scheme of getting all the milk pooled at Naya Bungalow and sealed it there and sent it through the Government agency to Gauhati so that we may get some money for our poor State out of the income of Chilling. But this Government has turned a deaf ear to my suggestions. Mr. Speaker, Sir, our country is not devoid of technical experts and such experts from our own country either from Meghalaya or from outside the State should be brought here to give technical advice in the indigenous production of milk and its allied products. We should not go out of our frontiers to get technical advice for things we produce in our own country. Industries which grow in our State must have a basic ground of our own country and it should serve the basic needs of our own people. The need of our country is different from the need of other countries and the mode of work etc. of other countries is different from the mode of work etc. of our own country. So, I request Government to get technical experts either from within our own State or from our own country and not from outside. So, with these few word, Sir, I move the cut motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Is there nobody to support the motion?

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support the cut motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Well, the Minister, will now please reply.

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture, etc) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in giving a reply to the discussion raised by the mover of this Cut Motion I would like to draw his attention to his own motion, rather to correct him, that these are not purchased but they are gifts which according to his Cut Motion he has said of our having the equipment purchased. But, they are not purchased. Whatever money we asked was to pay the customs duty. We have been trying to get ourselves exempted from this customs duty, but yet we cannot. But, Mr Speaker, Sir, these equipments have been received by us as gifts. 

Mr. Speaker :- In other words, his whole intention is against the foreign technical personnel and the advisability of having any other Indian-trained personnel but practically speaking, there is nothing about equipment.

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture, etc) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, for his information, I may be allowed to State that the Government of India have allowed only those items to be imported which are not available in our country. So his doubt that some of these equipments are available in India is wiped out completely.

Shri. S.N. Koch :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, does it imply that gifts come from a foreign country when we do not produce them here? We received many blankets as gifts even though we produce them here.

Mr. Speaker :- I think it is not correct for any hon. Member to case any reflection on the agreement reached between the Government of India and any friendly foreign country and I think some of the remarks made by the hon. Member are really not very palatable and I think the Government of India has not come to this agreement without any purpose. The purpose of this agreement was to collaborate between the two countries in the field  of dairying and I do not think the Minister will try to encourage the graziers. Now we are considering this particular demand to pay the customs duty for free gifts which have come from Denmark.

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture, etc) :- I think as the hon'ble Minister has rather replied, I request the hon. Member to withdraw his Cut Motion.

Mr. Speaker :- I did not reply, I only clarified the point.

Shri. D.N. Joshi :- I am very thankful to you Mr. Speaker, Sir, for having come to the rescue of the Minister for a reply.

Mr. Speaker :- I did not say that I did not rescue the Minister, and I did not reply for the Minister. If you say that, Mr. Joshi, I will have your remarks expunged from the proceedings for the House. You see Mr. Joshi this is a Central subject which should not be discussed here and in so doing you blame the Government. How could you repeat such things. I did not help the Minister but I am here to help each and everyone of the Members.

Shri. D.N. Joshi :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the explanations given by the Minister, I could gather something that the gifts received from a friendly foreign country which were agreed upon by the Government of India and which are meant for rendering assistance to our State and with the assurance that things are properly utilised for augmenting the needs of our State in having good dairy in our State, I withdraw the Cut Motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his cut motion ?

(Voices - Yes, Yes)

        The Cut Motion is with the leave of the House withdrawn.

        Now I put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.1,50,000/- be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "310 - Animal Husbandry".

(After a pause) The motion was carried and demand passed.

Mr. Speaker :- Now Minister in-charge of Mines and Minerals to move Grant No.10.

Shri. S.D.D Nichols Roy (Minister, Mines and Minerals) :- On the recommendation of the Governor, I beg, Sir, to move that an additional amount of Rs.4,00,000 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "328 - Mines and Mineral - B. - Regulation and Development of Mines'.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received one Cut Motion which stands in the name of Shri. W. Syiemiong.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.4,00,000 under Supplementary Demand No.10., Major Head "328 - Mines and Mineral - B - Regulation and Development of Mines", at page 11 of the List of Supplementary Demands be reduced to Re.1, i.e. the amount of the whole Supplementary Demand of Rs.4,00,000 do stand reduced to Re.1.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved, you can now initiate the discussion.

*Shri. W. Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, my intention in moving this Cut Motion is to discuss in a very limited way only certain points. In the first place why investigation of coal is at all necessary at this State when as given in the Explanatory Note, the amount of Rs.6,00,000 that is to be granted by the N.E.C. has not been given at all. As a matter of fact, coal is already a well developed industry and many private firms have all along been operating the coalmines by themselves. I do not see any reason why at this stage when the personnel have not been recruited for the purpose, we are already in the process of buying the equipments. I wonder why we should we be in such a hurry to do so. On the other hand I feel there are other mineral deposits which this State should have taken care of for this investigation and exploration. We understand from some information given by the Geological Survey of India that in this State there are, besides coal deposits, uranium belt, iron ore, cooper, zinc and even petroleum, if I am not mistaken. These minerals are far too short of our requirements and they should be explored instead of coal. If we go for coal why not at the same time go for these other minerals. We understand at Nongstoin area there are large deposits of minerals. On the other hand, if we are really keen to develop our industries, as I said, uranium is the best mineral which we should develop at present as well as ...

Mr. Speaker :- Uranium in its original form, I do not think it can be discovered.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- But the traces are there. So, as I said when there is shortage of coal, at least through the use of uranium, when there is shortage of coal, at least the use of uranium, we can substitute petroleum and coal and thereby our State will be very much profited. So also in the case of iron ore. Particularly in my particular Constituency of Nongspung, I believe many hon. Members will recall that this Constituency of Nongspung is famous for iron ore deposit. Then why not this present Government take some interest to explore and investigate the iron ore deposits in that area. So with these words, I move my Cut Motion. 

*Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the cut motion moved by the Hon. Member from Nongspung. We have been listening in this House for the last several hours to the discussion on some cut motions which were moved for the purchase of machineries, equipments, etc., for the Police or for the Veterinary Departments, but in this case we already have personnel and the staff and further equipments were asked for the order to man or develop the State. But here, we have put the car before the horse. Before appointing the technical personnel  staff, the Government itself has admitted, we instead asked to allow the Government to purchase machineries before the staff or technical personnel are appointed. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I point out that in this Explanatory Note at page 12 of the List of Supplementary Demand, the Government have informed us that sanction is yet to be received from the North-Eastern Council and that only an amount of Rs.4 lakhs is likely to be utilised out of the provision of Rs.6 lakhs asked for. Further, on the same paragraph, we are told that it is only through verbal discussion between the Secretary to the Government and the North-Eastern Council that the sanction is likely to be forth-coming. I am expressing this view in order to point out how we can go ahead and incur this expenditure when we are not definitely sure that the North-Eastern Council will come forward with the requirement for finance. This is a self-confessed matter and it has been laid down in the Explanatory Note. We have had the same experience of the relationship between the State and the North Eastern Council in some other spheres. I would like to draw the attention of my colleagues to the Umsning - Jagi Road where the North Eastern Council have for two years, promised to come forward with finance and ultimately did not and so now, bilaterally, the P.W.D. had to raise funds in order to repair, widen and reconstruct the Umsning - Jagi Road. This is one exampled the North Eastern Council may promise to come forward with finance but they may not keep it. So it may be also in the same way the North Eastern Council might give its assurance verbally that the money is likely to be forth-coming and that is why the Government has brought forward this factor in the Explanatory Note.

Mr. Speaker :- If this House does not agree, the North Eastern Council will not come forward with the money.

*Prof. M.N. Majaw :- That alternative I have considered here also. The proposal of the Government is on the discussion between the Secretary to the Government of Meghalaya and the North Eastern Council. Basing his conviction on that discussion, the Government have come forward with the demand and there is no categorical statement that this amount will come from the North Eastern Council. I would request the Government to look into this in general, and in relation to the North Eastern Council, the Government should try to evolve better system of approach so that the matter can be expedited. There are roads in Garo Hills where the P.W.D. are still waiting for the sanction of the North Eastern Council and have not been able to do the repairs at all. In such cases, it may happen that before the North Eastern Council could come to their help these schemes may be out of use and ultimately, the North Eastern Council may back out. On this ground, I support the motion.

Shri. F.K. Mawlot :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the cut motion. In the Explanatory Note it was stated that an amount of Rs.4 lakhs is likely to be utilised during 1974-75. When we do not have even, the technical personnel or staff and the same have not been appointed, how do we expect to carry out the work. Now  we are already in the month of December, and we have only three more months before us to complete this year ...

Mr. Speaker :- I think Prof. Majaw has raised a pertinent point which I think this House must really know from the Minister-in-charge whether this amount has been agreed to by the North Eastern Council or just a correspondence between the Government and the North Eastern Council.

Shri. S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Mines and Minerals) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the North Eastern Council has already given the sanction last week and I may like to point out that we are not barred in our State to take up investigation, we just point out that funds are coming from elsewhere for time being. We ask from our Assembly to give this in the mean time. We can certainly take up a scheme which is to improve our State. We should be having to note that we are going to set up a project which is of a regional nature. There is one bar for our State to undertake certain investigation on minerals, in our own State. We have stated that the N.E.C. have already indicated that they will probably be giving this.

Shri. Francis. K. Mawlot :- I am glad to know that the sanction was received last week from the N.E.C. But have Government already sanctioned the amount ? And this is why this has been given in the explanatory note.

Mr. Speaker :- I think, I have already asked the Minister to clarify the points.

        The position is that the letter was not received. But in any case the Assembly can advance the amount from the Consolidated fund of the State for any particular expenditure whenever fund is necessary. But, the Explanatory Note as given by the Minister indicates that this amount will not be incurred from the contingency fund of the State. It will come from the N.E.C.

Shri. Francis K. Mawlot :- I agree with you that the Assembly can grant any amount whenever necessary. It appears here in the Explanatory Note that this amount is not urgently necessary. When the staff were not appointed and the organisation has not started how come that this amount is urgently required to be granted.

Mr. Speaker :- This Department of Mineral and Geological is in existence.

Shri. Francis K. Mawlot :- In this way I suggest that this Explanatory Note may then be cancelled.

Mr. Speaker :- Actually now may then be cancelled it is in existence. I had also asked the Minister. In case the Minister has not got real sanction, this explanatory Note becomes a controversial issue. It is really important for you to discuss as pointed out and raised by the mover himself the advisability of taking the project at this stage. This is the point.

*Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- May I explain to the Member that the money can be incurred for the execution of schemes and then we get the sanction from this House later. As the money comes from the NEC the provision can be met by reimbursement  because of the nature of the scheme which is inter-regional. On that principle, the NEC agreed. Actually whether the money is available just now or not, it will come after a couple of weeks of this financial year, as such provision is made in our budget and the money sanctioned will be reimbursed.

Mr. Speaker :- The position as regards the financial implication and adjustment has already been made clear. Do you have any other points Mr. Mawlot ?

Shri. Francis K. Mawlot :- As pointed out by the mover of the motion why should Government confine investigation of coal only to some areas, that is, Mawsynram, Shella and Cherra area or Laitlyngkot area. This areas above are actually known to us and the Government. My submission is that there is coal deposit also in other areas of the State, like the Lyngngam areas. Why should Government confine and spend so much money only in that particular Shella area ?

Mr. Speaker :- Now, the Minister-in-charge of Industries to reply.

Shri. S.D.D. Nichols-Roy (Minister, Mines and Mineral Resources) :- This is quite a simple matter. I am afraid members may not be familiar with the idea. We should be familiarised with the idea of such investigation. It will be clear to the movers of the cut motion, when I explain to them first of all why investigations are to be done on coal known in certain areas. Proper planning of industrialisation can only be based on such proved coal deposits. Especially when large amounts of money are to be spent on new projects. Then minerals are to be investigated in detail. The Geological Survey of India investigates in general the ecological deposits of minerals in our State. The State is then to undertake detailed investigation in certain places. We are spending a lot of time and are to make a detailed study on these coal deposits so that we will know how much coal is available. You just cannot have a thermal station or cement factory without doing the detailed drilling work necessary in order to know how much coal the detailed drilling work necessary, in order to know how much coal deposit will be available, what is the extent of the deposit and for how many years it will be available. We are doing that in Nangalbibra. Everyone knows that coal is there. But we need to know to what extend it is minable. It is important to have a detailed investigation to prepare a mining scheme. You cannot do this haphazardly, as when it is used only for burning for domestic purposes. When you are planning industrial projects such as cement based on coal, detailed work is needed. Now the question is raised why Mawlong area coal is being investigated ? That is why Mr. Speaker, Sir, that according to the information that we have the coal deposits in and near about our existing Cement factory will not last the life of the Cement factory and we have to find out coal deposits elsewhere. This is one of the reasons, not the only reason, why we have to investigate coal in other areas. And that is why the Mawmluh - Cherra coal investigation for the Cement Factory, which is producing cement not only for the State but also for other States, has been included in the NEC programme. Now the question was asked as to why we re in hurry in investigating coal and not other minerals. But we are actually investigating other minerals as well. Now, a question also been raised as to why we are not investigating uranium and other radio active minerals. In this connection , it may be mentioned that it is the duty of the Atomic Energy Commission to investigate such minerals and the State Government cannot interfere with it. However, the Atomic Energy Commission has already conducted some investigation and so far our information goes no clear indication has been made as to whether a sizeable amount of radio-active minerals like uranium etc. has been found or not. So far as petroleum is concerned, the Oil and Natural Gas Commission has made certain investigation and they will continue to make investigation in certain parts of Garo hills. Investigation for the iron ore deposit at Nongspung area in Khasi Hills has been envisaged in the Fifth Five year Plan and this will be taken up. Now as for putting the cart before the horse, I should say that is not correct impression that we have no organisation for mineral resources. We have staff we have Engineers and Geologists. But for this particular scheme we require additional people for drilling operations especially for the Mawlong coal for Mawmluh-Cherra Cement Factory where are producing cement clinker based on coal. But unless we have the exact information how can we go ahead with such a huge project including expansion of the Cement Factory at Cherrapunji. So with this explanation I would request the mover to withdraw the cut motion.

Shri. Winstone Syiemiong :- I withdraw my cut motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his cut motion ?

(Voices : Yes, Yes).

        The cut motion is with leave of the House withdrawn. Let me put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.4,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "328 - Mines and Minerals  - B - Regulations and Development of Mines".

        (The motion was carried and Demand passed).

        Now the Chief Minister to move Grant No.11.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an additional amount of Rs.2,50,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "333 - Irrigation, Drainage and Flood Control Projects".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received two cut motions in the name of Shri. S.N. Koch and Shri. F.K. Mawlot. But I would rather advise the hon. Members to confine themselves only to the points. Here is a case to transfer a particular amount to another Head of Account which was actually voted during the last Session of the Assembly. Here if you disapprove the policy of the Government it means you are disapproving this transfer from one Head of Account to another which affects actually the whole framework of the budgetary system which was done by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India which in fact is being followed by every State and even Central Government. I do not know whether you will insist on disapproving the policy which affects the Comptroller and Auditor General of India. I do not think you have any reason to disapprove the policy of the Government for transferring the amount from Irrigation to Flood Control. I think the only point here is why it was transferred from one Head of Account to another.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I would like to add to what you have just said. So far as this cut motion is concerned it seeks to disapprove the policy adopted by the Government on Irrigation Flood Control. Now this has been discussed during the Budget Session and it has been approved by the House. So I do not think there is any scope for taking up the matter again here.

Mr. Speaker :- In any case, nobody can challenge the Comptroller and Auditor General of India.

Shri. S.N. Koch :- Since the motion has been admitted....

Mr. Speaker :- How do you know it has been admitted ? It is in the order paper only and even here I may decide not to admit. So on proper examination I find that these two cut motions which stand in the name of Shri. S.N. Koch and Shri. Francis K. Mawlot are not relevant since this transfer of expenditure has already been voted by the House in its last Session.

Shri. Francis K. Mawlot :- But so far as my cut motion is concerned it is a token cut. Well Sir, even then I have no intention to move it but I want only one clarification.

Mr. Speaker :- I have not given my ruling. First of all whether Mr. Koch would insist on disapproving the policy of the Government for transferring the amount to another head which has already been discussed.

Shri. S.N. Koch :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, one thing, there is nothing in the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business which bars raising any cut motion which has already been discussed. If there is anything, of course I would abide by the Rules.

Mr. Speaker :- This is a case merely on adjustment of an amount which has already been voted in the House. There is no other point. The amount has to be voted before it enters into another Head of Account. It is a mere clerical work in the office because the whole budgetary system has to conform to the proforma prepared by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India. So after considering all the factors I find that this cut motion is out of order. Now Mr. Mawlot what do you have to say ?

Shri. F.K. Mawlot :- I do not want to take the time of the House but I just want to bring to the notice of the Minister those mistakes which appears in the Explanatory Note. Line No.4 states that due to late finalisation of the schematic annual plan and as the time factor was involved for finalisation of the budget grants, and as such schemes costing below Rs.1.00 lakh could not be located by that time. Sir, I think there must be some printing mistakes on this and now, I want that the Minister should clarify.

Mr. Speaker :- I think the Minister need not clarify because at the end of the Explanatory Note itself, it has already been stated that it is only concerned with surrendering of the amount out of the provision and our rule also provision for the same. If you care to look at Rule 152 there is no scope for discussion on this Cut Motion which stands in the name of Mr. Mawlot.

Shri. F.K. Mawlot :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I only want to know whether it is a printing mistake or it is already Rs.100 lakhs.

Mr. Speaker :- This is an original amount. The amount of Rs.2,50,000 was originally included in the total amount of Rs.100 lakhs.

Shri. Upstar Kharbuli :- Since this involves a formula of budgeting and since this formula is adopted, schemes costing below 1,00,000 or 1,00,00,000 are to be reclassified. This is the only clarification we would like to have from the Minister.

Mr. Speaker :- The amount that the Minister has demanded is Rs.2,50,000 which was already included in this Head.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- It must be Rs1,00,000, i.e., 1.00 lakh.

Mr. Speaker :- So in accordance with Rule 152, the Cut Motion stands withdrawn. Now I put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.2,50,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the Head "333 - Irrigation, Navigation, Drainage and Flood Control Projects".

        (The motion was carried, and demand passed).

        Now, the Chief Minister to move Grant No.12.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- On the recommendation of the Governor, I beg, Sir, to move that an additional amount of Rs.15,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "337 - Roads and Bridges".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received one Cut Motion which stands in the name of Shri. R. Mawsor. According to this motion read with Rule 152, this Cut Motion is also out of order because this is the case of transferring of the amount from one head to another. So, I put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.15,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "337 - Road and Bridges".

        (The motion was carried and demand passed.

        Now, the Chief Minister to move Grant No.13.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- On the recommendation of the Governor, I beg, Sir, to move that an additional amount of Rs.21,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "477 - Capital Outlay on Education, Art and Culture, 480 - Capital, Outlay on Medical, etc."

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. In this case also though there is one Cut motion, the same thing applies. But before I put the question before the House, I would rather request the Government that in future such kind of misclassification of accounts should be avoided as far as practicable. Now, I put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.21,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "477 - Capital Outlay on Education, Art and Culture, 480 - Capital, Outlay on Medical, etc."

        (The motion was carried and demand passed).

        Now, the Minister-in-charge of Transport to move Grant No.14.

Shri. S.D.D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Transport) :- On the recommendation of the Governor, I beg, Sir, to move that an additional amount of Rs.6,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "544 - Capital Outlay on other Transport and Communication Services."

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. Since there is no Cut motion, I put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.6,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "544 - Capital Outlay on other Transport and Communication Services."

        (The motion was carried and demand passed).

        Now, the Minister for Social Services to move Grant No.15.

Shri. Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Social Services) :- On the recommendation of the Governor, I beg, Sir, to move that an additional amount of Rs.6,93,500 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "688 - Loans for Social Security and Welfare - I - Relief Measures and Rehabilitation Schemes."

Mr. Speaker :-  Motion moved. I have received as many as three cut motions which stands in the name of Mr. Syiemiong, Mr. Pohshna and Mr. Mawlot. Mr. Syiemiong, you may move your cut motion.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.6,93,500 under Supplementary Demand No.15, Major Head - "688 - Loan for Social Security and Welfare - I - Relief Measures and Rehabilitation Schemes" at page 20 of the list of Supplementary Demands be reduced to Re.1, i.e. the amount of the whole Supplementary Demand of Rs.6,93,500 do stand reduced to Re.1.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. You can now initiate the discussion.

*Shri. W. Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the Explanatory Note. we can very well understand that the entire amount of Rs.6,93,500 is the money that has been sanctioned by the Government of India as is the case with the Demand for Capital Outlay on other Transport and Communication Services. We have seen, Sir, that a huge amount has been sanctioned by the Government of India whereas in the Explanatory Note, it has been clearly stated that the expenditure will be met and financed by the State Government and ultimately, the same will be reimbursed by the Central Government. In this particular case, there is no such explanation at all. It seems that the entire amount of Rs.6,93,500 is going to be borne by the State Government from the State Exchequer. I therefore, want to be clarified on this point only.

*Prof. M.N.  Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Cut Motion. I am also of the view that this large sum of money of Rs.6,93,500 should be really borne by the Government of India particularly as it relates to rehabilitation of migrant families and Indian Repatriates from Burma as given in the Explanatory Note in page 20 of the Supplementary Demand and the Government have received sanction for this from the Government of India. So obviously this should have been borne by the Government of India. Further, Mr. Speaker, Sir, we would like to know whether these migrant families and Repatriates from Burma are granted relief and business.

Mr. Speaker :- That should come under Cut Motion No.2.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, further we are told that the money has been spent already by taking advance from Contingency Fund and the Government merely comes to the House for regularisation of the advance taken. Since the money has already been spent, we would like to know how it was spent since it was drawn from the Exchequer of the State and where these migrant families and repatriate families are staying.

Mr. Speaker :- The Minister to reply.

Shri. Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the Explanatory Note it has been stated that this money was sanctioned by the Government of India. Now, the hon. Members want to know about the migrants families and repatriates. These are the old refugees who came to India during 1964 and have finally been rehabilitated. There was an agreement during the time of Assam that certain families would be rehabilitated in Garo Hills. I do not know the exact number of families but many of them have been taken to camps and rehabilitated. They have been given lands for cultivation and a plot of land for settlement. These 162 families were in Rongram camp and for several years could not be rehabilitated and the District Council of Garo Hills could not provide them with land. There was an agreement between the Government of Assam and the District Council that the District Council would provide them with land, but unfortunately the District Could not do so and we sent a proposal to the Government of India that the 162 families who were in the Camps should be rehabilitated in some other way. There was a proposal that they should be given loan instead of homestead or land. The Government of India then decided to give loan to the 162 families at the rate of Rs.2,500 per family as loan and grant for housing to the 162 families at the rate of Rs.1,250. This money has been reimbursed by the Government of India recently. The case of repatriates was from the time of Assam. It was an old story. These repatriates from Burma were not given full loan and grant were rehabilitated in Khasi Hills during the composite State of Assam. A scheme for their rehabilitation was submitted to the Government of India during 1973-74 and this scheme was also sent by the Government of India during 1973-74 for implementation during 1974-75. Expenditure for the scheme was entirely made from the State Budget and reimbursed by the Government of India.

Shri. Francis K. Mawlot :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may we know whether Government has a list of these 162 families. Whether they have a list of the number of people, adult, males, females, boys and girls, etc. What is the population ?

Shri. Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, they are all Garo families from erstwhile East Pakistan. They have got families also but I cannot give the details.

Mr. Speaker :- It is not necessary.

Shri. Maham Singh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may we know the number of the Indian repatriates from Burma and how many are being rehabilitated.

Shri. Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- There are 39 families of Indian repatriates and they are all rehabilitated in Khasi Hills. Where they are, I do not know the exact place.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I point out. The Minister is aware, I am referring to the migrant families, but I must beg your pardon Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you have rightly pointed out but since the Minister has volunteered information, we would like to know at the time the migrant families came which was in 1864-65 it is my information which is also the Minister's information that Government of India placed a large sum of money at the disposal of the Garo Hills District Council for rehabilitation of these persons. Now is it a fact or not that a large sum of money about 14 lakhs of rupees is lying unutilised, undisbursed till today.  If that is so, why was this expenditure not met from this money which is lying at the disposal of the Garo Hills District Council for the rehabilitation of these migrant families. Why should we have to go in for additional expenditure of this nature.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, this particular question is being examined by the Public Accounts Committee. After they have finished and submitted their report then we can discuss about it.

Mr. Speaker :- What P.A.C. ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Our P.A.C.

Mr. Speaker :- Expenditure for 1964-65 should have been done by Assam's P.A.C. How can our P.A.C. do it?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- That I do not know. But in Garo Hills we have also give rehabilitation to tribal refugees from the East Pakistan.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Who are those refugees ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- But the amount referred to by the hon. Member is meant for the benefit of the local tribal people and not for the refugees. The Government of India in principle have agreed to rehabilitate an equivalent number of local families with regard to the number of displaced persons rehabilitated. If we rehabilitate 500 refugees an equivalent number of local people should be rehabilitated such as those who do jhumming.

Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a point of further clarification, the Minister has said that over and above there are 162 families migrated from Burma. But there are another 39 number of families here in Khasi Hills.

Shri. Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Relief and Rehabilitation) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, these 162 families and migrants from Bangladesh or the erstwhile East Pakistan and 39 families are repatriates from Burma.

Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Sir, the Minister has stated that those 39 families repatriated from Burma are there in Khasi Hills and that those 162 families are Garo people who are already rehabilitated in Garo Hills. But Sir, the place where they are staying is not known. So, Sir, we want to know how these people come and go and what type of people they are, whether American, Australian, Chinese or Japanese is not known.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, R. & R.) :- These 39 families are clearly stated to be Indian repatriates from Burma.

Shri. Maham Singh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may we know to which community do they belong ?

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, R. & R.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was told that they are Nepalese, most probably.

Shri. Winstone Syiemiong :- Sir, nobody from outside India can be regarded as Indian national. They got their own homeland and they belong to their land.

Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, if, as per statement of the Minister, those people are not known how then Government has spent money for them.

Mr. Speaker :- Mr. Lyngdoh, the first thing is that the money was spent from the State Exchequer. But it was reimbursed from the Government of India. Our duty before the House is whether this House will regularise this expenditure or not. Now you are concerned with seeking more information about the community to which these 39 families belong and also the actual location where they live. But  it is really not proper for you to demand that the Minister will place it right now.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, we will be failing in our duty if we do not seek for clarification, and if we not able to know the facts how can we allow the money to be regularised. The Government has already spent the money but they not know where these people are and who they are.

Mr. Speaker :- Whether Minister maintains the record of the recipients ?

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, R. & R.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me explain the position. The recipients of this loan must be still here because they have been given rehabilitation during the time of Assam Government. But the Additional loan was required and Rs.86,000 were sanctioned by the Government of India. So the list must have been there. I would not be able to inform the hon. Members about the names and particulars and whether they are male or female.

Mr. Speaker :- How did the Government disburse the amount ? I am asking the Minister.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, R. & R.) :- They must be in the list Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Speaker :- If the Minister maintains the records then he may say that he will place the list on the Table of the House.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, R. & R.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, records are definitely maintained and names also may be furnished if necessary.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, how can a loan be given to a man who does not exist at all.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, R. & R.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I said that records are maintained and also names of those migrants from Burma with their addresses can be there in the list.

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want a clarification. At least it appears that Government has not given us a clear picture as to whom the money was given.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I humbly submit that we would like to know whether correct Government expenditure was adopted in giving out loans. To our knowledge loans were made out on some mortgage or when loan bonds signed earlier for business or housing loans. Therefore may I request the hon'ble Minister to enlighten us as to whether loan bonds were singed in each and every single case >

*Shri. Sandford K. Marak (Minister, R. & R.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on this amount I won't be able to say definitely anything. But some arrangement must have been made because they are repatriated since the Government of Assam's time and loan was already given by the Government of Assam.

*Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, we cannot accept the recipients of another Government whereas we as responsible representatives have to regularise  this expenditure, but we would like to know before regularising whether Government followed the due process of law.

Shri. Hopingstone Lyngdoh :- Further Mr. Speaker, Sir....

Mr. Speaker :- How can the Minister answer each and every question you may give him at least a chance to answer your questions.

*Shri. Sandford K. Marak (Minister, R. & R.) :- I still insist that terms and conditions of loans have already been fixed by the Government of Assam and that we have only inherited them we wanted sanction from the Government of India under these terms and conditions. But I do not know these terms and conditions because I do not have them now here with me.

Mr. Speaker :- I think the Minister-in-charge does not mean that he does not know, but perhaps he requires time to study.

*Shri. Francis K. Mawlot :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, if this loan was spent by Government of Assam, and now we have already come t the third year then why not this loan be regularised during that very first year when rehabilitation was handed over to our Government.

*Prof. M. N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I move before the House that the list of these 39 repatriates from Burma and other 162 families be placed on the Table of the House along with the terms and conditions of the agreement under which housing and business loans were given out and also whether any loan bonds were executed between the loanee and the Government.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, R. & R.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will try to place it.

Shri. Hoover Hynniewta :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, it seems that the Minister is placing himself above of the House. He says "I will try to place". It does not lie within his discretion to decide whether or not he will place the information before the House. On the other hand it is the bounden duty of the Government to place this matter before the House (Applause). When he is seeking approval of the House of certain proposals by the Government, it is his duty to place facts before the House. We cannot be taken for granted as dumb-driven cattle.

Mr. Speaker :- I think if I allow, more and more time will be consumed; I mean, many new thing would crop up which may be irrelevant. But since most of the hon. Members want to see the list of the recipients of this grant, it is the duty of the Minister to place it before the House so that each and every Member would have the chance to study it carefully.

        (Voices- And the terms and conditions also, Sir).

Mr. Speaker :- Yes, and the terms and conditions.

Shri. S.K. Marak :- Yes, Sir.

*Prof. M.N. Majaw :- We have given you sufficient time to include the other list of migrant families.

Mr. Speaker :- The whole demand was on 39 repatriates from because those 162 migrant families were tribal, I think they were Garos.

*Prof. M.N. Majaw :- May I point out Mr. Speaker, Sir, that with regard to the 162 families if he cannot give us the list he will at least give us the terms and conditions under which the loans have been given out to them because we have confirmed knowledge that no loan bonds were executed.

Mr. Speaker :- I have given the Minister a special favour only on the 39 families who repatriated from Burma and the terms and conditions regarding those 39 families. So, the Minister can place it on the table of the House either today or on the 13th. It is up to him. Now, in view of what the Minister has explained and assured the House, what is Mr. Syiemiong's thinking about this cut motion ?

*Shri. W. Syiemiong :- Well, Sir, it is said experience and whole discussion would not have come up if the Department had specifically mentioned in the Explanatory Note that this entire amount would be met by the Government of India, as stated by the Minister. My reason for moving this cut motion is to discuss the advisability of the money being met from the State Exchequer and there is nothing written here in the Explanatory Note. And it is only after raising a discussion that the information cam out. I would not, hasten to say that such a motion will only consume and waste the time of the House.

Mr. Speaker :- That means you are not withdrawing.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- As he has already assured us I, of course, withdraw.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the Hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his cut motion.

(Voices - Yes, yes).

        The cut motion is with leave of the House withdrawn.

        Now Mr. Pohshna to move. Actually the whole thing has been discussed already.

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- I withdraw my cut motion, Sir.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his cut motion ?

(Voices - Yes, yes).

        The cut motion is with leave of the House withdrawn.


THE MEGHALAYA APPROPRIATION (No. IV) BILL, 1974

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, R. & R.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, before the hon. Member brings up the third cut motion on compensation for the damage on crops and land during 1970-71, I would like to inform the House that particular subject belongs to the Revenue and not to the Relief and Rehabilitation Department.

Mr. Speaker :- In any case; I am about to give my ruling that this cut motion is out of order because the subject matter which we want to discuss is not connected with the amount proposed to be voted by the House. Now let me put the question before the House. The question is that an additional amount of Rs.6,93,500 be granted  to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the Head "688 - Loan for Social Security and Welfare - I - Relief Measures and Rehabilitation Schemes'.

        (The motion was carried and demand passed)

        The Meghalaya Appropriation No. (IV) Bill, 1974.

        Now let us pass on to the next item in today's list of business. The Chief Minister to beg leave of the House to introduce the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974.

        The Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to introduce the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. Now I put the question before the House. The question is that leave be granted to introduce the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974.

        The motion is carried. Leave is granted.

        Before I ask the Chief Minister to introduce the Bill may I read the message from the Governor.

"RAJ BHAVAN

Shillong.

        In exercise of the powers conferred by Clause (1) of Article 207 of the Constitution of India, I, Lallan, Prasad, Singh, Governor of Meghalaya, hereby recommend to the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly the introduction of the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974.

Signed/- LALLAN PRASAD SINGH,

Governor of Meghalaya."

7th December, 1974.

        Now the Chief Minister to introduce the Bill.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to introduce the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved and now I put the question before the house. The question is that the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974, be introduced.

        (The motion was carried).

        (The Secretary read out the title of the bill)

        Before I ask the Chief Minister again, let me read out the message from the Governor.

 "RAJ BHAVAN,

Shillong.

       In exercise of the powers conferred by Clause (3) of Article 207 of the Constitution of India, I, Lallan, Prasad Singh, Governor of Meghalaya, hereby recommend to the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly the consideration of the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974.

Signed LALLAN PRASAD SINGH,

Governor of Meghalaya

7th December, 1974."

        Now the Chief Minister to move.

Shri. W.A. Sangma, (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974 be taken into consideration.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. Now I put the question before the House. The question is that the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974, be taken into consideration. (The motion was carried). 

        Since I have received no amendment to the Bill may I ask the Chief Minister to move the motion for passing.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister):- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the Meghalaya Appropriation (NO. IV) Bill, 1974 be passed.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. Now I put the question before the House. The question is that the Meghalaya Appropriation (No. IV) Bill, 1974 be passed.

        (The motion was carried and the Bill was passed).

        Since there is no other business for the day, the House stands adjourned till it meets again at 9 A.M. on Friday, the 13th December, 1974.

 R.T. RYMBAI,

Dated, Shillong

Secretary,

the 11th December, 1974.

Meghalaya Legislative Assembly.

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