Proceedings of the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly held at 9. A. M. on Tuesday the 25th June, 1974, in the Assembly Chamber, Shillong.

Prof. R. S. Lyngdoh, Speaker, in the Chair.

Mr. Speaker : Let us  begin the business of the day by taking up Unstarred Question No. 48.

Unstarred Question

----------------

(To which replies were laid on the Table)

Handing over of the land for construction of Mawlyndep-Mawmih Road

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw   asked :

48. Will the Minister incharge be pleased to state -

(a) Whether the Civil authorities have handed over to the P. W. D. the requisite land for the construction of the Mawlyndep-Mawmih Road ?

(b) If so, whether the construction has been started ?

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State in-charge, Public Works Department)  replied :

48. (a) -No Sir.

        (b) -Does not arise.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :48 (a0, Sir, whether the Mawlyndep Mawmih Road is included in Fifth Year Plan ?

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State in-charge, Public Works Department)  :I require notice for that, Sir.

Prof. M. N. Majaw :Does the Government contemplate construction of the road ?

Shri D. D. Pugh : Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Prof. M. N. Majaw :Have steps been taken to persuade the civil authorities to hand over the road as quickly as possible?

Shri D. D. Pugh :It is under consideration.

Shri Maham Singh :Whether land has been acquired ?

Shri D. D. Pugh :The land acquisition proceedings are in progress.

Shri Maham Singh :Has any notification been issued for acquiring land ?

Shri D. D. Pugh :Not yet, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mawsynram-Rangsohkham Road

Shri Winstone Syiemiong  asked :

49. Will the Minister-in-charge of P. W. D. be pleased to state-

(a) The total length of the Mawsynram -Rangsohkham Road  ?

(b) The number of villagers and approximate population this road will serve ?

(c) The total amount spent, so far, for construct in excluding repairs if any, of this road (year-wise) ?

(d) The amount spent so far for repair works ?

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State, P. W. (R & B. Department)  replied :

49. (a)- 3 K. M.

(b) - This road leads to only one village (Rangsohkham) and the population according to the census figures is 32.

(c) -Rupees 3,03,382.

(d)- Rupees 25, 149.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, before you call for supplementaries, I would like to make a brief statement. You will notice that in 49 (c) there is no information regarding the amount spent year-wise; in the reply, only the amount is given. Therefore, I would like to take this opportunity of experienced regret, which is only through oversight that the error is committed. I would like to assure the House and to assure you Mr. Speaker, Sir, that there was no intension of showing any disrespect to the hon. Member who tabled the question or of misleading the House.

Mr. Speaker :So, the word "year-wise" be omitted. Any supplementary question ?

Shri Maham Singh :What are the products of this villages ?

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State in-charge, Public Works Department)  :It leads to a mining area, Mr. Speaker, Sir. 

Shri H. Hadem :Mr. Speaker, Sir,  is that the only importance of that villages which has a population of only 32 ?

Mr. Speaker : That is a mining area .

Shri H. Hadem :Is that the only importance of the place ?

Shri D. D. Pugh :Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for a very valid reason.

Shri Maham Singh :Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether the coal mine has been leased out to any person, company or corporation ?

Shri D. D. Pugh :I will require notice for that.

(Voices- It does not concern him)

Shri Maham Singh :Whether the coal mines belong to the villagers ?

Mr. Speaker :In fact, you have asked a supplementary question in answer to your supplementary which, normally should not be allowed.

Shri H. Hadem :Is there any case of leasing out the mines to anybody.?

Mr. Speaker :That is also a supplementary question to a supplementary answer. Now, unstarred question No. 50.

S. F. D. A. Schemes in the Bhoi Block 

Shri Dlosingh Lyngdoh asked :

50. Will the Minister-in-charge of Agriculture be pleased to state-

(a) Whether it is a fact that the S. F. D. A. has started various Schemes in the Bhoi Block ?

(b) If so, please state-

(i) The number of cattle distributed to cultivators.

(ii) The number of Poultry Units distributed to cultivators.

(iii) The number of Pine apple plants distributed to cultivators.

(iv) The number of rolls of fencing wire distributed to cultivators.

(v) The number of fencing nets distributed to cultivators.

(vi) The tonnage of fertilizers distributed to cultivators (name wise).

(vii) The number of roads with mileage constructed till now ?

(viii) The amount of money spent uptil 31st March, 1974 ?

(ix) The number of Local beneficiaries ?

(x) The number of beneficiaries from Shillong ?

(xi) The number of S. F. D. A. Officers Firms ?

(xii) The quantity of milk produced daily by the S. F. D. A. cattle at Nongthymmai and to whom the supply is made ?

(xiii) Whether all the cattle distributed to the farmers of Nongthymmai villages are still alive and bearing calves ?

(xiv) If the reply to (b) (xiii) above is in the negative please state the reason there of ?

(c) Whether it is  a fact that the SFDA has organized their so called Societies without consultation with the Local Leaders, B. D. O. and Public Representative of the Area ?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Agriculture ) replied : 

50. (a)-Yes.

(b) (i) Eighty-eight cows.

      (ii) Twenty-four units.

       (iii) Sixty lakhs suckers.

       (iv) Two thousand and one hundred rolls of  barbed wire distributed.

       (v) No fencing nets distributed to cultivators.

        (vi) One hundred and eleven tonnes of fertilizers distributed . Name of cultivators to whom distributed is as per list placed on the table of the House.

        (vii) Twenty-one numbers of road constructed till now. Total length is 103.39 Km. 

        (viii) Rupees 65.27 lakhs upto 31st March, 1974.

        (ix) Four thousand three hundred and six.

        (x) Shillong area is excluded from the operation of  S.F. D. A. 

        (xi) Nil.

        (xii) About 40 litres of milk is produce daily. Morning milk is supplied to Government Chilling Plant at Naya bungalow and milk produced in the evening is marketed locally.

        (xiii) No, some have died and some are bearing calves.

        (xiv) It is believed due to starvation.

(c) -The societies have been organized in accordance with the provision of the Co-operative Societies Acts.

Prof. M. N. Majaw :50 (b) sub-division (vii) . Whether these 21 roads whose construction was taken up were not completed ?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) :Most of them are not completed, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Shri Dlosingh Lyngdoh :50 (b) (iv). I want to  know to whom these 2,100 rolls of barbed wire were distributed ?

Shri E. Bareh :To the member of the society, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Shri Dlosingh Lyngdoh : (b) (xiii). The answer here says that some cows have died. How many are still living ?

Shri E. Bareh :62 are still living, Mr. Speaker, Sir. (Laughter)

Shri Dlosingh Lyngdoh : May we know the cause of death ?

Shri E. Bareh :The reply is already there.

Mr. Speaker :Yes, the reply is there.

Shri Maham Singh :May we know what are the the breeds ?

Shri E. Bareh : They are cross-breeds, Mr. Speaker, Sir. (Laughter)

Shri S. P. Swer : (b) (iii). Whether the 60 lakhs suckers were distributed to the cultivators free of cost ?

Shri E. Bareh :At subsidised rates, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Shri H. Hadem : Supplementary question to (b) (xiii). Whether this place Nongthymmai is within Shillong ?

Shri E. Bareh :No, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is in the Bhoi area.

Mr. Speaker :Is Nongthymmai within the Bhoi area ?

Shri E. Bareh :Nongthymmai of the Bhoi area, Sir.

Shri H. Hadem :(b) (xiii). How many cows have died ?

Shri E. Bareh :26 cows have died and 62 are living.

Shri H. Hadem :(b) (xiv). Here the reply is "It is  believed  due to starvation". Has the real cause of death been investigated  into ?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) :Yes, it is due to starvation.

Shri Maham Singh : By whom these roads have been constructed ?

Shri E. Bareh :By the labourers of the society, Mr. Speaker, Sir. 

Shri S. P. Swer :What are the types of societies in the area this is supplementary to (c) ?

Mr. Speaker :How many types of societies are there in the Bhoi Area Development Block ?

Shri E. Bareh :I require notice for that because, under the  Bhoi Block, there are so many societies of different types.

Mr. Speaker :Let us pass on Unstarred Question No. 51.

Financial help to the Tribal refugees in Garo Hills

Shri Samerendra Sangma   asked :

51. Will the Minister-in-charge Relief and Rehabilitation be pleased to state -

(a) The different types of financial help in the form of loan, etc., given to the Tribal refugees during the year 1973-74 in Garo Hills ?

(b) Whether it is a fact that the rehabilitation Tribal refugees of Garo Hills, who were given cultivable reclaimed lands have not yet received any Pattas for the land so given ?

(c) If so, whether the Government intends to constitute a Committee for the purpose of (b) above ?

(d) If not, why ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister-in-charge, Relief and Rehabilitation) replied :

51. (a)- A sum of Rs. 1,76,700 was  sanctioned to the 38 non-agriculturist families for the following purposes :

(1)

Housing Loan

Rs. 1,250 per family..

(2)

Business loan

Rs. 3,000 per family.

(3)

Purchase of homestead

Rs. 400 per family.

(b)- Yes Sir. The lands have not yet been surveyed  and brought on the revenue Records. The Garo Hills District Council is now taking up the work of Survey of the lands and it is now in progress.

(c) & (d)- Do not arise in view of reply to (b) above.

Shri H. Hadem :51 (a) (3). Here the answer in " Purchase of homestead Rs. 400 per family". What is the real cause of this ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Relief and Rehabilitation) :Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is a Government of India scheme by which all refugees should be immediately settled because the Government of India want to close down all the camps and according to the proposal, the refugees are given Rs. 400 per family. It is up to them to find there own homesteads.

Mr. Speaker :I think the answer is not clear. For own person or per family.

Shri Sanford K. Marak :Per family, Sir.

Mr. Speaker : Let us pass on to unstarred question No. 52.

Supply of water at the Ganesh Das Hospital Shillong

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

52. Will the Minister-in-charge of Health be pleased to state -

(a) Whether there is a sufficient supply of water at the Ganesh Das Hospital, Shillong ?

(b) If, not, whether the hospital authorities have been buying water from the Shillong Municipality and the Fire Brigade Services ?

(c) If so, the total volume of water bought in this manner for the year 2973-74 and the cost thereof ?

(d) What steps  does the Government propose to take to ensure sufficient supply of water to this Hospital ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister-in-charge, Health) replied :

52. (a)- No.

      (b)-Yes.

      (c) 12,000 gallons at a total cost of Rs. 360.00.

      (d)- The work for argumentation of water supply to the hospital buildings is being taken up soon.

Shri Maham Singh :52. (d). From which source water supply will be made ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :We will find out the source . We have not yet found the source.

Prof. M. N. Majaw :The reply here is "being taken up soon". so. perhaps, the source has been found. How long will this work take or when does the Government expect to finish the work.;

 Shri Sandford K. Marak :In due course. (Laughter).

Mr. Speaker :Let us pass on to unstarred question No. 53,

Government Dispensary and Primary Health Centre in Mawhati Constituency

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

53. Will the Minister-in-charge of Health be pleased to state-

(a) Whether there is any Government Dispensary or Primary Health Centre in the entire area covered by the Mawhati  Assembly constituency ?

(b) If so, where ?

(c) If not, does Government intend to open such Dispensary  or Primary Health Centre in the following areas or village centres ?

(i) Kyrdem,

(ii) Namsha and Nongtham Raids of the Khyrim Syiemship .

(iii) The four raids of the Lalung, near Amjong or Umsiang.

(iv) The Marma in Raid in the Mylliem Syiemship, and 

(v) The Japngar Raid in the Khyrim Syiemship.

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister-in-charge, Health) replied :

53. (a) & (b)- No. But the area is served by the Nayabangalow Primary Health Centre, Umden State Dispensary, Bhoilymbong State Dispensary and Nongpoh State Dispensary, the last two being up-graded to hospitals.

(c) The matter is under examination.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :53 (b) . Whether the existing Primary Health Centre cover all the villages in the Mawhati Constituency ?

Mr. Speaker :Their services cover those villages which fall within Mawhati Constituency ?

 Prof. M. N. Majaw : Are there sufficient medicines in these dispensaries?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :I have not report so far about the shortage of medicines .

Shri Maham Singh :How far is the constituency from the nearest dispensary ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak :I require notice for that question.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :Sir, my supplementary question has not been replied. I am asking whether all the villages in the Mawhati Constituency has been covered by the services of these dispensaries ?

Mr. Speaker :Not all villages and here the question is whether the Mawhati Constituency is covered by these.

Shri Sandford K. Marak :The Constituency is covered but all the villages may not be covered.

Shri Humphrey Hadem : What is the nearest place to these Centres?

Mr. Speaker :Mawhati Constituency has a very long stretch. So it is difficulty  to cover.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :We only want to know the length !

Shri Sandford K. Marak  :I require notice for that question.

Shri Maham Singh :Are these dispensaries easily accessible by the villages of Mawhati Constituency ?

Shri Sandford  K. Marak :Mr. Speaker, Sir, most of these dispensaries are not easily accessible.

Shri S. P. Swer :May I know the number of beds in these hospitals ?

Mr. Speaker :Not hospitals but dispensaries .

Shri S. P. Swer :But here is the reply it is stated "hospitals".

Mr. Speaker :They will be upgraded to hospitals.

Shri K. M. Roy :What is the number of beds in the Primary Health Centres ?

Shri S. K. Marak :There are no beds in these dispensaries.

Shri. K. M. Roy :I do not say about the Primary Health Centre at Nayabungalow but about the number of beds in other dispensaries .

Shri S. K. Marak :I require notice.

Shri D. D. Lapang :53 (a). Whether it is a fact that there is a dispensaries at Sonidan constructed by the Bhoi Area Development Block.

Shri S. K. Marak :I  could not follow his question.

Mr. Speaker : His question is whether it is a fact that one dispensaries has been constructed at Sonidan which falls within Mawhati Constituency by the Bhoi Area Development Block ?

Shri S. K. Marak : I am not very sure but I think there is one .

Prof. M. N. Majaw :What is the condition of that building ?

Mr. Speaker : The Minister said that he is not very sure about the existence of this building.

Prof. M. N. Majaw : 53 (c), Among the five areas under examination has Government given priority to any of these ?

Shri S. K. Marak :We will definitely fix priority according to need; it is going to to need-based .

Shri F. K. Mawlot :The question is whether among these five  centres priority has been given by the Government to any of these ?

Shri S. K. Marak : It will be given due consideration. 

Mr. Speaker :When the whole matter is under consideration, how  can the Government fix the priority ?

Paddy Cultivation under the Dhima Reserved Forest  in Garo Hills 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

54. Will the Minister-in-charge of Forest be pleased to state-

(a) Whether Government intends to develop paddy cultivation in suitable  areas under the Dhima Reserved Forest in the Garo Hills ?

(b) If not, why ?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Forest) replied :

54. (a)- Suitable areas in Dhima Reserved Forest are already under paddy cultivation.

(b)- Does not arise.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :54 (a), Whether these areas are permanently or temporarily settled for paddy cultivation ?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Forest ) :These are for permanent cultivation, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sub-headquarters at Amlarem 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

55. Will the Minister for Community Development be pleased to refer to the reply to Unstarred question No. 95 (a) given on 7th July 1972 and state ?

(a) Whether the Government has repaired or rebuilt the Sub-headquarters  buildings of the Saipung-Darrang Development Block at Amlarem ?

(b) If not, why ?

Shri Edwingson Bareh  (Minister, Community Development ) replied :

55. (a)- No.

(b) -The Saipung-Darrang Development Block which started as a Multi -Purpose Community Development Block in 1956 was converted to C. D. Stage II on 1st April 1962 and since then the Sub-headquarters of the Block at Amlarem ceased to function. Hence, Government  do not consider it necessary to repair  he buildings.

        With the re-adjustment of the Blocks boundaries in Jaintia Hills, Amlarem is now under the Jowai Development Block. The serviceable materials were utilized in some other Blocks.

Zut dari in Garo Hills

Shri Samarandra Sangma asked :

56. Will the Minister-in-charge, Revenue be pleased to state-

(a) Whether it is a fact that the "Zut dari" system is still in existence in in Garo Hills in Mauza No.VIII ?

(b) If so, whether the Government propose to abolish the " Zut dari" system ?

(c) The approximate areas of lands under such "Zut dary" system?

Shri Brington  Buhai Lyngdoh (Minister, Revenue) replied :

56. (a)- Yes.

(b) - Government are awaiting proposal from the District Council, Garo Hills.

(c) -5,964 bighas 4 kathas 16 lessas.

Shri Maham Singh :May we know, Mr. Speaker, Sir,  what is this Zut dari ?

Mr. Speaker :I think it is better not to ask any question which you yourself do not understand. But I must remind the Government that in certain answer  they give the area in terms of hectares and in some answers  they give in terms  of bighas. It is time that the Government  should regularize these.

Shri W. A. Sangma ( Chief Minister) : "Zut dari", for the information of the hon. Member, is an intermediary. It is not exactly like the zamindari  system but almost like that.

Boundary Dispute Between Assam and Meghalaya

Shri Onward Leyswell Nongtdu asked  :

57. Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state-

(a) Whether it is  a fact that the Government of India has decided to constitute a Committee to examine the boundary dispute between Assam and Meghalaya ?

(b) If so, whether it has been constituted ?

(c) If the answer to (b) be in the affirmative, the names of the members of the Committee from Meghalaya ?

Shri Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

57. (a)- The State Government have not received any official information from the Government of India in this regard.

(b) and (c) - Do not arise.

Shri F. K. Mawlot :Whether the Government of Meghalaya had requested the Central Government in this regard ?

Shri W. A. Sangma : We have not got any formal request but certain enquiries  have been made by the Government of India for which we are trying to collect all necessary materials for a report. In the meantime we have been interim replies .

Prof. M. N. Majaw :Whether the State Government had received any unofficial intimation ?

Mr. Speaker : We should not talk unofficial matters here.

Small Farmers /Marginal Farmers Agency Schemes in Garo Hills 

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

58. Will the Minister-in-charge of Agriculture be pleased to state-

(a) Whether the Government has received any reply from the Government of India on the extension of the Small Farmers/Marginal Farmers Agency Scheme to the entire Garo Hills District ?

(b) If so, what was the reply ?

(c) If not, whether the Government still pursuing this matter ?

Shri Edwingson Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) replied :

58. - (a) - Yes, by personal discussion between the Project Administration, Small Farmers Development Agency, Meghalaya and the Ministry of Agriculture, Government of India in July, 1972.

(b)- The Government of India was not inclines to extend the area of operation of the Small Farmers Development Agency/Marginal Farmers and Agricultural Laborer Development Agency to the whole District of  Garo Hills as by doing so, it may be detrimental to the pilot nature of the Project.

(c)- Does not arise.

Implementation of Rural Water Supply Schemes in Garo Hills District

Shri Brojendra Sangma asked :

59. Will the Minister-in-charge of P. H. E. be pleased to state the number and names of these villages in Garo Hills District where the rural water supply schemes are going to be implemented during the current year ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister-in-charge of P. H. E.) replied :

59. -It is proposed to take up 37 new schemes of in addition to 15 continuing schemes. List of the schemes are placed on the Table of the House.

Shortage of Water Supply in Baghmara Area

Shri Brojendra Sangma  asked :

60. Will the Minister-in-charge, P. H. E. be pleased to state-

(a) The progress of work of the Baghmara Water Supply Schemes ?

(b) Whether Government is aware that there is a shortage of water supply  in the Baghmara area ?

(c) If so, how does the Government propose to meet the shortfall ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister-in-charge of P. H. E.) replied :

60. (a). Work in the 1st Zone is nearing completion.

(b)- Yes.

(c)- It is proposed to install a few more deep tube wells to meet  the shortfall.

Supply of Drinking Water within the Mawhati Assembly Constituency

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

61. Will the Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering be pleased to state-

(a) The total number of applications received  from villages within the Mawhati Assembly Constituency for the supply of drinking  water ?

(b) The number of drinking water supply schemes completed so far in the aforesaid area ?

(c) When does the Government propose to complete the schemes for supply of drinking water  to villages in the area ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister-in-charge, Public Health Engineering) replied :

61. (a)- 18 (eighteen).

(b)-4 (four).

(c)- In the course of successive Five-Year Plan subject to available funds, and suitable water sources.

Prof. M. N. Majaw :61 (b), What are the names of these four drinking water supply schemes ?

Shri S. K. Mawlot (Minister, Health) :The names are (1) Umsaw Nongkharai (2) Umlaiteng, (3) Nonglum and (4) Kyrdem.

Prof. M. N. Majaw : Of these  only two are within Mawhati Constituency.

Mr. Speaker : The Minister is not expected to answer to all supplementary questions in an unstarred question. Unstarred questions are supposed to be exhaustive and the answers should be exhaustive. If you try to trap the Ministers in unstarred question , I think it is unfair.

Prof. M. N. Majaw :It would have better for the Government to give the usual answer that 'the matter is under consideration'. But here in this particular question, having given a categorical reply that  four schemes  in the Mawhati Constituency had been completed, the statistics are categorical. So I only want to check.

Shri Grosswell (Mylliemngap) :61 (a) Whether the Government intends to complete all the 18 Water Supply Schemes in this area ?

Mr. Speaker : The Government have not decided to take up all the 18 schemes although they have received 18 applications.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :May we know whether answer to 61 (b) will be corrected ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) : It can be corrected.

Mr. Speaker : But you are yet to verify. We know for sure Kyrdem is definitely within Mawhati constituency but Nonglum you will find everywhere in Khasi Hills.

Construction of Approach Road to treatment plant at Nongstoin

Shri Francis K. Mawlot asked :

62. Will the Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering be pleased to state-

(a) The amount sanctioned for the construction of the approach road from Nongstoin-Pyndengrei road to the treatment plant for the Nongstoin Water Supply at Nongstoin ?

(b) Whether tenders were called for ?

(c) If the answer to (b) is in the affirmative -(i) the memo No. and date of the notification, (ii) the number of tenders received by the Officer-in-charge may please be stated ?

(d) The name of the contractor to whom  the work was allotted and the rate he/she quoted ?

(e) If the answer to (b) above is in the negative the reasons thereof?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering) replied :

62.(a) - Rupees two thousand.

        (b) - No.

        (c)- Do not arise.

        (d) - Do not arise.

        (e) - Being a petty work it was taken up and completed departmentally.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :Whether the amount of Rs. 2,000 is meant for earth work only or  it also includes construction of culverts and walls also.

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Public Health) :  Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is only  for earth work.

Shri H. S. Lyngdoh : Sir, the answer is only for earth work. May we know whether there is any scheme for construction culverts also in this portion.

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Public Health) : I require notice for that.

Shri H. S. Lyngdoh : Answer to (b). When the Government proposes to call for tender ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Public Health) :  Tenders will not be called. This is being done departmentally.

Officer entrusted with the work for Nongstoin Water Supply Scheme

Shri Francis K. Mawlot asked :

63. Will the Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering be pleased to state-

(a) The name of the Officer who was entrusted the survey and investigation of the Nongstoin Water Supply Scheme during the 1968-69, 1969-70 and 1970-71 ?

(b) The number of subordinate officers placed under him ?

(c) The detailed statement of expenditure spent for survey and investigation ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Public Health Engineering replied 

63. (a) - Sarvashri K. P. Thakur and Shri M. G. B. Nair, S. D. O.'s (P. H. E.) 

(b) -2 (Two)

(c) - The year-wise expenditure is as follows :-

 Rs.         P.

1967-68

. . .

. . .

7,206.38

1968-69

. . .

. . .

7,756.70

1969-70

. . .

. . .

 3,906.230

1970-71

. . .

. . .

   430.00

Total

19,229.31

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :Whether the survey work for the Nongstoin Water Supply Scheme had been completed? 

Shri Sandford K. Marak ( Minister, Public Health ) :Sir, I, require notice.

Rural Water Supply Schemes in Garo Hills

Shri Nimosh Sangma asked :

64. Will the Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering be pleased to state-

(a) The number of villages in Garo Hills where construction of rural water supply schemes has been completed.

(b) The number of villages in Garo Hills where supply schemes has proposed to be taken up during 1974.

(c) The number of border villages in Garo Hills where Government propose to provide with water supply scheme during 1974.

Shri Sandford K. Marak ( Minister, Public Health Engineering ) replied :

64. (a) During the 4th Plan period, thirteen schemes were completed.

(b) - Thirty -seven during  1974-75 in addition to 15 continuing scheme .

(c) - 6 (six).

Shri Pritingson Sangma :Under  64 (c), Mr. Speaker, Sir, may we know what are the names of these six villages  ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak ( Minister, Public Health ) : Sir, I require notice.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot - Under 64 (a) Mr. Speaker, Sir, what are those thirteen schemes that have been completed ?

Mr. Speaker : Here I must rather observe that in unstarred questions hon. Members should avoid asking supplementary questioned  which require a long answer. This can be done only when there is any doubt arising out of the  main question.

Shri Sandford K. Marak ( Minister, Public Health ) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have got the list of those thirteen schemes with me.

Shri Printing Sangma : Mr. Speaker, Sir, may we know whether the Government is aware of the fact that the schemes that have  been completed at Songsak and Adokgiri are not workable ?

Mr. Speaker : For that you may come forward with a separate question.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :Whether the Government has got the list of those  37 villages as stated in reply to question No. 64 (b) ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak ( Minister, Public Health ) : Yes, Sir. We have got a list here.

Water Supply Schemes in Garo Hills

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

65. Will the Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering be pleased to refer to the reply to unstarred question 23 (a) given on 5th December, 1972 and state-

(a) Whether the various water supply schemes in Garo Hills District have since been completed ?

(b) If not, when are these expected to be completed ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak ( Minister, Public Health Engineering  ) replied :

65. (a) - Out of eighteen schemes, twelve schemes brought to stage of completion and water is being supplied to the public.

(b) - The remaining  schemes are expected to be completed during the 5th Year Plan. 

Paham Water Supply Schemes

Prof. Martin Narayan Majaw asked :

66. Will the Minister-in-charge of Public Health Health Engineering be pleased to state-

(a) Whether the Paham Water Supply Schemes has now been completed ?

(b) If not, when is it expected to be completed ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak ( Minister, Public Health  Engineering )  replied:

66. (a)- No.

(b) - During the 5th Plan period.

Prof. M. N. Majaw :Answer to 66 (a) . May we know when the scheme was taken up.

Shri Sandford K. Marak ( Minister, Public Health ) : In 1972.

Shri Maham Singh : May we know that is the total cost of the scheme ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak ( Minister, Public Health ) : I require notice.

Prof. M. N. Majaw : What is the progress of the scheme ?

Shri Sandford K. Marak ( Minister, Public Health ) : Progress is good.

(laughter)

Post of lecturer in Bengali for Tura College

Shri Plansing Marak asked :

67. Will the Minister-in-charge of Education be pleased to state-

(a) Whether the post of Lecturer in Bengali for Tura College has been advertised ?

(b) Whether it is a fact that the present lecturer was once disqualified on grounds of over age by the Assam Public Service Commission ?

(c) Whether is a fact that the same person was re-appointed by the Meghalaya Government with an advice in her appointment letter to apply for age condonation ?

(d) If so, why ?

Shri Darwin D. Pugh (Minister of State in-charge, Education ) replied :

67. (a) - Yes, Sir, through the Meghalaya Public Service Commission, 

(b)-No, Sir.

(c)-Yes, Sir.

(b)- She was appointed under 3 (f) of the Meghalaya Public Service Commission Regulations as she had the necessary qualifications. She was advised to seek condonation of age on the consideration that she had  exceeded the upper age  limit while serving in the college.

Shri H. Hadem :Answer to (c). What is her actual age ?

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of state Education ) I require notice .

Mr. Speaker : It is  difficult for a person to know the actual age unless the parents tell.

Shri Maham Singh : What is the official age ?

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State Education) :Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not know the age in terms of figure. But I know  she has crossed the age limit prescribed.

Shri H. S. Lyngdoh :When was the post advertised ?

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State Education) : I require notice for that.

Shri H. S. Lyngdoh :Whether the person has been appointed for indefinite period or for a certain years.

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Lyngdoh at least you must know what is your question . What you have asked is augmentative. As you know very well that the service of he or she will be governed by rules and regulations.

Shri Reidson Momin : Whether her age was condoned by the M. P. S. C. or by the Government

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State Education) : By the Government.

Shri Maham Singh : Whether the appointment was made on contract basis ?

Mr. Speaker :As has been replied, she was appointed under Regulation 3 (f). 

Training for Non-Garo I. P. Teachers

Shri Sibendra Narayan Koch asked :

68. Will the Minister-in-charge of Education be pleased to state-

(a) Whether the Government proposes to train up the non-Garo L. P. teacher of Garo Hills with a view to improving the standard of teacher of Garo Hills with a view to improving the standard of elementary education ?

(b) If so, what steps  Government propose to take to provide training facilities to the Non-Garo L. P. Teachers of Garo Hills ?

Shri Darwin D. Pugh (Minister of State, Education) replied :

68. (a) - Yes, Sir.

(b) -The proposal to start one wing at the Training Centre Resubelpara for Assamese Medium Teachers and another wing at the Training Centre, Tura for Bengali Medium Teachers is under examination of Government.


VOTING ON DEMAND FOR GRANTS

Mr. Speaker : Let us pass on to item No. 2 Mr. Hopingstone Lyngdoh to continue his discussion on the cut motion.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : Mr. Speaker, Sir, yesterday I have dealt with one aspect  of the matter, and that is, regarding construction of roads by the P. W. D. and the low rates prescribed by the department since 1970-71 which had not been changed or modified up to date. Sir, the tendency on the part of the contractors while submitting tenders is just to get work whereas they know fully well that they were not able to complete the allotted work because of the low rates. And even if they have completed the work they did it with great loss to themselves. As such there is a tendency for the contractors to complain to the Executive Engineer or even to the public leaders about certain lapses on the part of their works. Thereby re-measurement and revaluation of their works are done.  Therefore, Sir, I am afraid that corruption and malpractice might  crop in the department at the time of making payment to the contractors. So Sir, I would request the Government  to see that the scheduled rates of the P. W. D. are revised according to the present  market rate of commodities and raw materials and also the wages of the laborers. Another aspect, Sir, is regarding the bottle neck created in the Public Works Department in the execution certain works and allotment of tenders. The tenders is always allotted on political  consideration. Sometimes, under the pressure some of high-ups who are higher in rank and status in the ruling party and under the pressure of some MLAs and Ministers, some contractors had been  favored with allotment of contract though such contractors will not even be able to  complete the works scheduled to be completed within the financial year.  Sir, here also the contractors who have got works on several occasions, have to transfer their works to some other people. In this connection, many of such works were half completed or not completed at all as those illegible contractors are not able to carry out the transferred work.

Mr. Speaker :Is it not a training for the newly or ambitious persons to become contractors ?

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh :Yes it may be a  training Sir, but there should be certain limit. One contractor may get the favor  of a high official or the Ruling Party. But as a matter of fact, his tactics were not to give his contract over to some persons who are trying  to become contractors but to the registered contractors themselves. Therefore, Sir,  there is over work and excess also. Here also, Sir, I may inform the House that those were contractors who used to register fictitious names under the P. W. D.  Even children were registered as contractors. We also learned,  Sir, that in the sub-division and Division when the father was a contractor, his 4 or 5 children also had been registered  as contractors, not to talk of the age, even small school going children were also registered as Contractors of the department.

Mr. Speaker :Have you been told by the Department about this ?

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh :We know this from our experience. Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sometimes, those contractors used to come to us for  recommendation but once we know that their small children were going to be registered we did not give any recommendation without further enquiry. There is a form for this where recommendation can be made by the MLAs, MPs and other public representatives. 

Mr. Speaker : But the recommendation is about the character  and financial position. Any MLA will recommend if a person  from his  or her constituency comes.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : We will recommend, Sir, if we know that they are not children, but I think no MLA will recommend without knowledge the case properly  and without  proper enquiry. But Sir, those children had been registered as contractors. Here again Sir, we find that  those persons who registered  themselves  as contractors were not really  capable as contractors. Therefore,  there is a tendency that the deserving  contractors  are deprived of the works. Hence much of the works could never be completed in time. Now, another aspect of the matter is regarding patchment  works on certain roads by the Department . This Public Works Department  used to make  all these patchment  works on the road, for instance, the Shillong-Nongstoin on the Shillong-Tura road. Well Sir a huge amount of money has been provided for extension of these roads. Sometimes, this Department called for tenders for gravelling certain kilometres of the road and then black-topping of one or two furlongs the same road. Next time tenders were invited for widening  on the same side of the road which had been black-topped and so on and so forth. Therefore, I do not see any reason, why once the road is black-topped  and graveled further extension  should  again be made on the same portion of the road resulting in over-lapping of work, I feel that this should be avoided.

Mr. Speaker :What do you mean by that ? Whether it is extension or widening?

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh :So Sir, this particular hinders the progress of the work of the Department in so far as the country's demand for speedy development of roads in the State is concerned. Sir, these are also certain Development, in which the PWD used to call for tender for repair or extension of some portions of the road and inspite of the best effort of the contractors to get the tenders, the Department allotted the work to their own person knowing  fully well that he is a defaulting contractors and that he had not been able to complete previous works allotted to him. It is a fact, Sir, that many of the works were allotted to the very same persons. So, here, also there is scope for the Department and the contractors to resort to malpractice. The officers of the Public Work Department also get a scope to resort to malpractices and so corruption is rampart in that Development. Sir, another aspect of the matter.......

Mr. Speaker :Since yesterday, the word 'corruption' had been used in a very discriminate fashion. I think we should be more careful in the use of this word. Unless, and until there are specific cases. as I already said times without numbers., this words should be avoided. You can say instead of corruption- 'malpractices' that is a more general term.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are specific cases which have been called cited last time also about this Public  Works Department. But up till now, the Government has not yet come forward with a clear statement as  to how this practice -may I use the word corrupt practice again- be done away with, otherwise I will have to repeat this word 'corruption' again and again in course of my speech in the Assembly . So I request Government to kindly see that such repetition will not occur again in this Assembly Mr. Speaker, Sir, another practice  of the Public Works Department is that so such money has been spent for maintenance of the existing roads and bridges........

Mr. Speaker :That will come in the next cut motion.

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : Of course Mr. Speaker, Sir, but I just want to discuss about the working of the Public Works Department. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, Sir, another point is that Government, in this Department, whenever they take up survey work  for construction of roads, they never stick to the original alignment but they always  change the alignment with  the result that more and more money has to be spent over and above the amount already spent in the survey  work. They change the alignment of the road and that is why money  is spent unnecessarily which amounts to a waste. In this connection, Sir, I would give my views  that the  overseers and the muharirs who have been entrusted with this type of work should be well trained in conducting the preliminary survey work. If they  are not trained in whole scheme will fail. And atleast the Executive Engineer or  the Sub-divisional Officer who have passed  in this alignment should, before approving the alignment, make personal inspection of the alignment . Overseers and muharirs should get proper training in all alignment and survey work. During Assam's time, I remember even Muharirs not to talk of overseers, used to get training in survey  work. They get some knowledge about survey work and various other technical works of the Department. But now, Sir,  in our own Government there is no training at all for the muharirs. The Public Works Department authority just appoint them in their offices while they never give them away training at all. So Sir, if we want to speed  up the work according to plans, the right from muharirs up to the Executive Engineers these must be proper training in all technical  fields. So with these  few words, Sir, I support the cut motion.

Mr. Speaker : Although the Cut Motion is more or less the monopoly of the hon. Members to my left hand side, yet I would request  them to be a brief and as substantive as possible so that  you will be  able to help me. You know, I will be very sorry if almost 50 percent  of the grants will fail to the lot of prerogative  because, tomorrow at 1 P. M. I have to sharpen my blade for guillotining them. Therefore, please help me to avoid this unfortunate circumstances. Now, Mr. Kurbah.

Shri Edward Kurbah :Mr. Speaker, Sir,  I rise to support the cut motion moved by the hon. Member from Nongspung. I would like to say something about the implementation of schemes by the Public Work Department and its activities while executing different  types of works. I have observed, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that most of  the roads are not completed  or executed in a proper way, most  probably, due to this  or that reason. Of course, I am not  blaming the Government that all the roads are not completed.  But many of these roads are in bad condition as they are not constructed in  a proper manner according to plans and estimates. Although as I said, not all roads are in  bad condition but many of them  are in that condition  up till now. As you know, Sir, from Mawngep to Nongstoin there is one road which is in a very bad condition. But if we take the other road like the one from Mawngep to Mairang, we will find that there are many cracks and potholes along the road.

Mr. Speaker : Mr. Kurbah  I think it is better that your cut motion should be clubbed along with the  cut motion No.4. 

Shri Edward Kurbah : In this regard, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would  like to bring to the notice of those House, as I have already stated, that this road is a very bad one and it is supposed to be a State road which  connects Shillong with Tura. For the construction of this road right from Mawngap to Mairang and onward lakhs and lakhs of rupees have been spent. You can imagine  what impression it will give to any person from outside if he happens to travel along this road though this road though this is supposed to be a State road.

Mr. Speaker :It is  a National High Way. I think it is a State Road.

 Shri Edward Kurbah :Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir,  it  is a State road or a State High Way. This road, Sir, has not been constructed in a proper  way. For example, Mr. Speaker, Sir, in 1971-72 there was a fund for construction of drains along that part of the road which passes through Mawngap village. I think  you have already seen that part of the road at Mawngap village.

Mr. Speaker :Times without number.

 Shri Edward Kurbah :You must have seen that the road was very dirty and stagnant waters are to be found  on the both sides of the road.

Mr. Speaker :But I was shocked at the presence of many speed breakers.

Shri Edward Kurbah :No more speed breakers in that area. Mr. Speaker, Sir, but in that very area there is culvert. The people of that village asked me to approach the Government to see that this village is taken into consideration so that it can be included in the revised scheme and the work should be taken up as soon as possible. Regarding the diversion to the Mawngap market road, the matter has been lying there now for the last 2 or 3 years and the people have given their land on condition that they will get compensation . Since the  road is very important to the people of the area, they would like to see that it is  completed as soon as possible and that land compensation also should be paid to them early.

Mr. Speaker :Land compensation has already been discussed.

 Shri Edward Kurbah : But that is one of the existing roads. Now another road from Mawmaram to Nongthliew which is in existence has been opened since 1971-72 and from 1972-73, but if you are to travel on that road you cannot imagine its condition. It is a pity because Nongthliew village is one of the biggest potato producing areas, which produce also the best potato. But the people there have no means of communication to bring the potato to market ; not only this village, but all the other villages near about this road are finding difficulty  in bringing the potato to the market  because this road has not been completed by the Public Works Department. Only a short while ago, during the question hour we saw in the reply that the civil  authorities have not yet handed over the road from Mawngap to Mawmih to the Public Work Department . But we saw that this Mawlyndep-Mawmih road is already included in the budget for 1972-73, 1973-74, 1974-75 and the estimate for 1972-73 was Rs. 10,00,000 and the amount already spent was Rs. 50,000 in 1972-73 and for 1973-74 the estimate is also Rs. 10 lakhs and amount of Rs. 10,000 is supposed to be spent and in 1974-75 it is budgeted at Rs. 9,93,000 and it is said that the progress  of the work this year would  be to the time of Rs. 100 lakhs and that amount has already been spent for that road. But if you are travel on that road you will see no sign of progress being made, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Speaker :The work in progress does not mean some construction work ; its means also survey work and things like that.

 Shri Edward Kurbah :But Sir, if you add up Rs. 50,000, Rs. 10,000 and Rs.  1 lakhs the total comes to 1,60,000 rupees. I just cannot persuade myself to believe that for survey alone it will cost so much.

Mr. Speaker :It could be for purchase of things, etc.

Shri Edward Kurbah :Money has already been spent but no work has been done. This is a very  important road which leads of  Mawmih. It is considered that potatoes coming from this area are also the best and if you can bring this potato to the Shillong Bazaar, the traders will immediately be willing to buy potatoes coming  from this area. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had the occasion to visit the area with one of my friends from Pariong and with one of the officers. We visited Sohiong-Weilyngkut road and we travelled along the Ningthliew to Mawkeng up to Wallang. Previously there was no muster roll there, but on that very day, I was surprised  to see that there were  one or two or three muster rolls to fill up holes here and there. This is so bad because they know that the officer concerned will go there that day.

Mr. Speaker :Do you mean to say that if the officers go there frequently the condition of the road will be improved  ?

Shri Edward Kurbah :Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very happy to see that many officers and Ministers are trying to rush to the rural areas and I agree with your suggestion that if officers pay frequent visits to these areas schemes for road construction will be quickly and properly implemented. I have travelled from Wallang to Nongspung and we are happy to travel on foot about 3 to 4 kilometres nearly up to  Nongspung and we saw that the road is in a very bad condition. It has already been proposed that the survey of the alignment should be followed there, but when we went there with this technical officer, the alignment  done by the previous officer was not approved by him and now the alignment should be changed to the other side. This is wastage  of money as the old alignment had to be abandoned and we a re now to under take the new alignment for that road. We were fortunate enough to have a technical officer with us because he told the Executive Engineer to do the work at once so that the people will not suffer. The people also came forward to meet him and told him that they wanted their produces to be brought to Shillong  for marketing  them and the officer was very pleased to meet them. They told him also that at that time the contractor who was allotted the work of construction of the road was not there and most of the construction work in that area was delayed because the contractor lives very far away. He has also to bring the labourers to that place, and at the same time he has to construct camps to provide shelter for them. It is not understood why Government  did not allow the local contractors to undertake the work because they have their  own labourers to construct the roads. If this is done, I am sure, the road will be completed very soon and will bring benefit to our people.

        We have already seen one of the bridges along the road from Nongspung to Lyrgkhoi. There is also one bridge to be constructed along the road from Nongspung to Pariong. The tender has already been invited and the work was  allotted to one of the contractors who is not a local man. But uptil now, the work has not yet been started. I visited the place and I found that it will not take a long time to construct that bridge because stones and sand are available there, but only the other miscellaneous materials will have to be brought from Shillong. So this is the way how the Department is doing the work. I would therefore, suggest the Government, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that as far as possible first preference should be given to local contractors for construction of roads and bridges.

Mr. Speaker :That is really very very grave. The term local contractor has been interpreted in  various ways. From your point of view, local contractors mean contractors of that particular  area when it concern a particular area. But from the other interpretations throughout the whole discussions, local contractors mean the people of the State.

Shri Edward Kurbah  :Suppose a contractor from Jowai allotted the construction work at Nongstoin.

Mr. Speaker :If a contractor from Weilyngkut goes to Nartiang, what is the harm ?

Shri Edward Kurbah :Because most of them are big  contractors and the officers prefer to give the work to them. So what happens is this even that local contractors and local people are deprived of the work.

        With regard to maintenance of the roads, the rates, fixes for muster roll labour is only Rs. 4. per day when ever a cultivators can get Rs. 7 or 8 per day.

Mr. Speaker :It is a good thing to encourage people switch over to cultivation.

Shri Edward Kurbah :Then what will happen to roads ? (laughter) How will the people transport their produce from their place to the town ? In that case, they have to travel to the towns carrying loads on their backs as was done in the old days. Now-a-days, you find only boys who are not able to carry loads or to do the work  are employed as labourers. They cannot maintain the roads.  In this connection, as one of the hon. Members suggested that the scheduled  rates should be revised in order to attract local labour. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the reason why the roads are not maintained is most probably, in some cases, due to frequent transfers of officers. I would like to say something  on this. If  for one or two years the executive head  of the officer is transferred to some other Public Work Department Division, in that case,  it becomes difficult  for that officer to go back and supervise the work. What he can is do only to entrust the work to the local staff. So it is really a very sorry state of affairs not only to me but to some hon. Members. The Contractors came to me and to some hon. Members and said that  such and such muharirs and overseer indulged in malpractices before they began the work by demanding one thousand rupees or so from the contractors. If the contractors gives him one thousand rupees, then the officers will pass the bill.

Mr. Speaker The Officers are being blamed unnecessarily, and on a number of occasions, reverse is the case.

Shri Edward Kurbah : These things are being practised by the muharirs  and overseers. Of course this is done behind the screen. It is not open other wise they will be caught at once.

Mr. Speaker :How did you come to know of the incident that took  place behind screen ?

Shri Edward Kurbah : We came to know from the poor contractors. This is only a piece of information to the House so that the Government can take action at once against such persons who indulge  in such malpractices. I want to know whether the Government will take action at once.

Shri Winstone Syiemiong :On a point of order. The Minister-in-charge is not present in the House.

Mr. Speaker :It is really a sorry state of affairs. If one of the Ministers is not present in the House, I think , I should write a letter to the Chief Minister that he should see that members of the Government should represent in the House when discussions are going on, otherwise, this House cannot transact its business. Anyway, the Minister-in-charge has come. Mr. Kurbah, you may continue.

Shri Edward Kurbah :Mr. Speaker, Sir, now I would like to come to another point. It seems that some divisions cover a very big area and the reason why they cannot execute the work properly may be due to this big  size of a division. If the division is so big, it is difficult  for the Executive Engineer to go and visit, investigate and supervise the work.. Some of  the Executive Engineers- I am grateful to them- are never satisfied to entrust the work of supervision only to the subordinates  officers. That is very good but in some other Divisions in which the Head  of the Officer entrusts everything  only to the Sub-divisional Officers and other junior officer there is every livelihood of bribery going on between them and the contractors.

Mr. Speaker :You mean bribery or transaction is going on between them ?

Shri Edward Kurbah :Let us say transaction, Sir.

Mr. Speaker :Transaction ................... it appears that you know better.

Shri Edward Kurbah : We know that, Sir, otherwise we would not have brought this to this House.

Mr. Speaker :But they should be caught.

Shri Edward Kurbah :Otherwise, the contractor's bill will not be passed.

Mr. Speaker :But if the contractor takes the Executive Engineer or any Engineer to task, then that Engineer will lose his job.

Shri Edward Kurbah : But you see Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is difficult because the officers right from the head to the bottom are in the good book of some influential or rich persons. The poor cannot grease them as the rich do.

Mr. Speaker :  Then, a poor man like myself will have no influence.

Shri Edward Kurbah :Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not like to prolong my speech, but my wish is only that the all points that I have already brought forward in this House  may be taken into consideration by the Government to ensure and see that the matter is being examined by the Department  concerned. So, before, I take my seat, I would like to request the Government to take up as early  as possible the most important roads which are in existence. For example, the Mawmaram- Mawmluh road should be taken up as soon as possible.

Mr. Speaker : You have said  that.

Shri Edward Kurbah :Yes, Sir, I  have said that. Another one is Sohiong-Weilyngkut road.

Mr. Speaker : Sohiong.

Shri Edward Kurbah :Yes, Sir, another one is the Barapani road. I have not said that. Then Mawlyndep-Mawmih-Nongthliew roads -either from Barapani or through Mawngap-Shillong roads. Another one is Sohiong -Nongspung Mawkneng-Pariong road and Lawbah-Hat Majai road. So, with these few words, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I resume my seat. Thank you.

Mr. Speaker :Mr. Kurbah, you are suggesting only improvement of roads of a particular area and forgetting the other areas of the whole State.

Shri Edward Kurbah :Because, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have not travelled much in the other areas.

Mr. Speaker :Anyway, I will close the discussion on this.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :Mr. Speaker, Sir,..........(interruption)..........

Mr. Speaker :I will give Mr. Mawlot, Mr. K. M. Roy, Mr. Khongwir and Mr. S. P. Swer 3 minutes each.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :Mr. Speaker, Sir,  as a point Mover of the Cut Motion aimed at raising a discuss on in the matter of implementing and executing various works of the Department, I would like to say  that my first thought goes to the problem that the Department would be facing. That is the Department would certainly express the difficulty about the lack of engineers and staff. So, in this connection, Sir, I would suggest that even a Training Centre for training all these officers is not available, not to speak of any training college.

(The Speaker left the Chamber and the Deputy Speaker took the Chair)

        Every  training is being done in Assam. We have been sending our sectional assistants and even sectional officers also for training outside the State. Therefore, Sir, unless we get our own training centre, our own colleges, it will be difficult to get seats in these areas outside the State, for the purpose. I may say that the Government may not be able to assure or reserve seats for the people in those colleges outside the State . Therefore,  Sir, I would like to suggest that a Training Centre for the training of our Sectional Assistants and Sectional Officers be opened in three State, so that they  will get  a chance of going for better training as a result of which execution of the works  will be satisfactory. 

        Secondly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have seen that the money earmarked to be spent by this Department goes mostly  to maintenance of roads and bridges. And the, part of the money means for roads in  being spent on the employment of muster rolls. Sir, I would say that on employing the muster roll, we find a lot of mis-appropriation of public money. Sir, we know for a fact that the Sectional Assistants in collaboration with the Sectional and even with the S. D. O.'s used to emkploy lost of muster roll, especially during the rainy season, for clearance and attending to the road and for maintenance of those kutcha roads in the interior. But Sir, most of the muster  rolls do not get their  pay as expected. Moreover, 50 percent of what the muster rolls get goes to these officers. And also there are lots of fictitious names whose monthly  pay or daily pay are consumed or pocketed by these officers, and these names are being enrolled in the muster rolls registers regularly. Sir, if the Government  wants proofs, we can bring certain examples. Therefore, Sir, I would suggest that though the high officers of the said Department are very good and yet there is a lot of scope for improvement of the Department specially in checking malpractices, as our friends from Sohiong has stated and to check  misappropriation of public money spent on the fictitious  names of the muster rolls. Sir, only with these two points, Sir, I support the Cut Motion.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in supporting the Cut Motion, I demand of the Government to enlighten the House as to what has happened to our complaint regarding the drawal of an amount of Rs. 73,213.23 paise from the Nongstoin Division on the 16th March, 1972 in the name of late U Iang Swer.  Secondly, I demand the Government  should immediately revise the scheduled rates, for construction of roads. Thirdly, there are some officers who do not like to stay in one place because of their genuine personal difficulty and they want to get themselves transferred to some other areas, but they were refused . I do not know the reason why the Government should not release them. The person cannot be forced to work and stay in a particular place when he is not willing to stay and is merely unhappy. So Mr. Speaker, Sir, with these three demands, I support the Cut Motion.

Shri S. D. Khongwir :I also rise to support this Cut Motion. I have got only one point as the other points have been covered by my friends. The one  point that  I want to bring here is regarding the appointment of Sub-ordinate Engineers by the Government. We  have seen in the Gazette that so many Sub-ordinate Engineer from out side have been appointed by the Government and I understand that this is a  permanent appointment, and as a result Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  when our own boys will pass from the Engineering College, by that time there will be no vacant posts for them to get appointment in their own State. So  I would suggest, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  as far as practicable, if Engineers are not available at present, let us appoint engineers from other  States on contract basis. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  as already remarked by one  of the persons from Public Works Department itself that at this rate of improvement of roads, and opening of new roads by the end of Fifth Five Year Plan or the Sixth Five Year Plan there will be a complete network of roads in the State. If most roads have been completed question will then arise. -Where will the Engineers go at that time ? We  will not require  Engineers anymore. So I want to impress upon the  Government whether it is possible or not on their part, to get persons from outside on contract basis. Thank you.

Shri K. M. Roy Marbaniang :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  while taking part in this cut motion, at the first instance, I would like to say that the mover of the Cut Motion, the hon. Member from Nongspung, would have rather suggested to give more funds to this Department since he has also spoken about roads construction to be taken up in his Constituency.  But instead of doing so,  he has moved this cut motion to reduce the whole Grant under this head to Rs. 100. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Mover of the cut motion and also the other four movers  have made so many allegations against this Department. They have made these allegations because probably they did not go deep into the matter and see the aspect of working system of this Department. The Mover of the cut motion, has accused this department because in certain divisions the work was allotted to certain contractors only, particularly in Mawsynram Division. I want that the Mover of this cut motion should also appreciate the difficulty of those Engineers who are in that Division. I want to bring to the notice of this august House that the number of contractors who have registered in that Division alone comes to about 1,000. So let us appreciate the difficulty of those Engineers in distributing  the work to such a large number of contractors. I do not agree at all that the work has been given to certain contractors only. The mover of this cut motion and his friends have spoken about changing of road alignment. Mr.  Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would just bring one certain fact in this august House about the Shillong-Gauhati Road which has been constructed many year ago. But still even in that of Gauhati -Shillong Road there are changes of alignment here and there up till today. So how can you except, in any roads that are being newly constructed, that the alignment could be roads that are being newly constructed, that the alignment  could be done perfectly at the initial stage of construction, it is quite impossible for any human being what ever he may be, irrespective of whether he has obtained the First Class Degree in Engineering from the best Engineering College. But it is quite impossible for him to give a proper alignment at the first instance. As I have suggested just now, even the Gauhati -Shillong Road which has been constructed before our birth, is requires so many changes of alignments to be done. I do not agree  with the Mover of the cut  motion that the whole alignment is to be changed. It may require to be changed here and there only. In the course of their observation, they have also spoken about the construction of Mawsynram and Rangsohkam. They have cabled also Unstarred Questions which have been  replied by the Government regarding this road. I personally think that Government has done the right thing by constructing this road because the people at that time, about 10 years ago, were really in a very difficult financial position. If you would have seen with your own eyes, you will really feel pity for them. Many became poor after the partition of the country when Pakistan was created. They have become so poor that they have got nothing to do, and I, as a man representing them at that time, congratulate  the Government of those days that they have  really come out to the help those people during their difficult times. They have also spoken a lot and accused this Department about corruption (interruption).

Mr. Deputy Speaker :You have already crossed the time allotted to you.

Shri K. M. Roy Marbaniang : Sir, since you have allotted to the hon. Members of the other side 20 minutes or 30 minutes , I may also be allowed some more time.

Shri S. D. Khongwir : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Hon'ble Speaker, has allotted three minutes to each speaker.

Shri H. Hadem :May I remind the hon. Member that the time limit is meant only for the members  from the other side as they have been making long Speeches, we from this side, have not yet participated and would also like to do so. Such, being the circumstances, the time fixed by the Hon'ble Speaker meant only for them.

Prof. M. N. Majaw : What about the other members who want to tale part in the discussion ?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) :The members from the  other side have been speaking for 10 to 20 minutes. What about the hon. Members who want to take part  ? Does it mean they will be deprived of discussing this Cut Motion?

Shri S. D. Khongwir : The Hon'ble Speaker was about to close the discussion on this particular Grant but because we requested him, and he has named those who will take part in the discussion, by fixing the time limit of three minutes to each member. They are Mr. K. M. Roy, Mr. S. P. Swer and myself.

Shri H. Hadem :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  the question has not been put before the House, and as such the Hon'ble  Speaker,  has not given a definite  ruling  that this particular Cut Motion will be closed. He will give a chance to others and he has given a time limit. As such, I think  that all members have got a right to participate in this Cut Motion.

Shri S. D. Khongwir : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, are we to understand that there is a change in the ruling of the Hon'ble Speaker ?

Mr. Deputy Speaker :The Hon'ble Speaker, wants to close the discussion on this Grant. When some of the hon. Members requested him to give  them a chance, he decided to give three minutes to each hon. Member. So I am to abide by the ruling of the hon. Speaker.

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State, Education) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  will you kindly give you ruling on what the hon. Member from Mawhati has said. What about other members who would like to participate, who  had been named ?

Mr. Deputy Speaker :So far as the ruling on this particular Cut Motion is concerned, the Hon'ble Speaker mentioned the names of the three hon. Members who will be getting the opportunity of participating in the discussion and he has given  three minutes to each of them. Mr. Khongwir, Mr. K. M. Roy, and Mr. S. P. Swer.

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, Agriculture) :Does it mean Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  that others  will be deprived of the opportunity of discussing  this Cut Motion ?

Prof. M. N. Majaw :Does it mean that the Speaker has ruled out other Members whose names do not appear in that list?

Mr. Deputy Speaker :I have already said we have to abide by the ruling the Hon'ble Speaker

Shri K. M. Roy Marbaniang :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think that is a very important subject and an important Department and that we should get ample time so that we can also express our views and reply to the charges and accusations levelled against the Government from the other side. But since the ruling of the Hon'ble Speaker is there, I have nothing to say but to bow down to the ruling the Chair. I, therefore oppose the Cut Motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :Mr. S. P. Swer.

Shri S. P. Swer :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I  am sorry I will not be able to finish in 3 minutes only but I will try to make the best use of the time allotted to me. In the first place, I have been listening with rapt attention to the observations as well as  the accusations made  by the hon. Members of the other side of the House. But I was surprised to hear that the hon. Member from Nongspung who moved the Cut Motion said that  the progress of road construction during the Fourth Plan is 535 Kms. The whole Fourth Plan, I donot know, I think it is an arithmetically wrong calculation. You will find that in the budget  speech of the Finance Minister, at page 3, it is given that the length of the roads at the beginning of the Fourth Plan is 2,649 kms. and the end of the Plan, it is 3,350 Kms. That shows a progress of 701 Kms. But Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think  the achievement should not be assessed only by basing on the length of roads, because road construction does not  only mean increasing the length of roads, but includes also widening of roads  and some other works. Road construction is done phase by phase or by stages before we get a road fit to be called a public road. Since the time is very short, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also though once  upon a time  that when tenders are called, why the work was not allotted within a short time  ? But as you know, there is some  difficulty  in this, which the Department has been experiencing. Government cannot construct roads on somebody's land . So until and unless land was handed over to the Department, the Department cannot start its work. Another point also, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  which was raised by one hon. Member is about the Shramik Bahinis. I think we all know that Shramik Bahinis mean an association or a society of labourers or workers both skilled and nusskilled. Since we live in a country or a state trying to build a socialistic pattern of society, these Shramik Bahinis should be encouraged, instead of doing away with the  idea of  having the Shramik Bahinis. Another point raised, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  is regarding schedule of raise. I do not think  Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that  because of the schedule of rates there is poor show of  workmanship on part of the contractors. Because in the tender notice it is very clearly mentioned that any contractor can quote rates below, at par and above the schedule of rates and when they enter into a contract, the work  has to be  done according to specifications for a particular  item or piece of work. I do not see the reason why, because of the schedule of rates, there is poor workmanship. Since my time is up I resume my seat.

Shri M. Reidson Momin :May I also have a few minutes, say about 2 minutes, Sir ?

Mr. Deputy Speaker :Yes.

 Prof. M. N. Majaw : Then I will also plead for 2 minutes.

Shri Reidson Momin : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, a lot of mud, slinging has been done on this Department, but I think, although I am not a P. W. D. man myself I have certain knowledge of this Department and I feel that too much criticism should  not have been made by the hon. Members. I think when we discuss this Department, we should do so in a constructive manner  and, as such, should  be more  reasonable  and rational when we express our own feelings against certain Department . Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  we know that though we have got the man-power  and other resources, there are certain materials which are not readily  available and, as such, the construction works become slow and just  for that reason  we should not take it that the Government  is not functioning well or that a particular Department is not functioning properly. I know  that cement, for sometime past, was not available. This is also true of iron materials like rods, etc. and although the Departments try to finish the works within the stipulated time, they have not been able to finish or complete the work. So, Sir, we must strike a balance and see whether it is the fault of the Department or the fault of the Executive Engineer or it is because of something else........(Interruption).

(A voice : Half a minute has gone due to interruption)

        The hon. Members from the opposite side have criticized certain Departments for mal-functions or malpractices-Of course, I do say that such corruption or malpractices may be there- but if we educate our own  people not to offer money to the corrupt officers then those malpractices would not crop us. So, Sir, it is the duty of all the elected representatives of the people to educate our own people not to offer any money but to concentrate on their own works and in the execution of their own contractors. Lastly, I would like to mention here that the hon. Members from the other side ............

Mr. Deputy Speaker : You have already crossed your time.

Shri Reidson Momin : Just one more minute, Sir. There is a general complaint that only the supporters  of the APHLC have been allotted with work but I would refuse such remarks, made by the hon. Members from the opposite. With these few words, Sir, I resume my seat.

Prof. M. N. Majaw :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with your permission I will take exactly two minutes. As I have already spoken on the P. W. D. yesterday I have only 3 points for the Minister's notice. The first is the famous missing link.........

Prof. P. G. Marbaniang : This is the second time.

Prof. M. N. Majaw : Not on this cut motion.

Prof. P. G. Marbaniang : Yes, you spoke yesterday.........

Prof. M. N. Majaw : Yesterday, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it was on a different cut motion. I think we will have to refresh  our memories........

(Interruption)

(Voices: Two minutes have passed )

        We are speaking of the missing link not of human beings but of the famous link, the most classic example, on the Jakrem-Ranikor Road, especially that portion of the road from Kyniong to Rangthong. The Kyniong road is going in a different  from that of the  Rangthong road,  which is an another direction, another angle. They do not meet : the Kyniong road is below and the Rangthong road is above and the only means of communication is by means of  a ladder- they have put a ladder down from Rangthong  to Kyniong road because the alignments could not meet. This is indeed the most classic example of road construction in the State, where not even a horse can go from Rangthong to Kyniong.

        The other points is that under previous administration, the tenders papers were never sold...........

(Interruption)

        So the tender papers from the Executive Engineer were never sold. It is only from the S. E. upwards and you will find in many divisions...........

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Mr. Majaw you have particularly mentioned that point already. So I would request you not to go back.

Prof. M. N. Majaw : I am merely referring to the fact that different  divisions have got different rate. The Mawsynram Division and the  Shillong South Division charge different rates. There should be a parity of rates.

        The third point is with regard to a few cases along the G. S. Road where, after the work has been completed privately, tenders are called for Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Shri H. Hadem : May I also take part in the discussion, Sir ?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : You will get only two minutes.

Shri H. Hadem : Thank you Sir. But I think  with these  two minutes, I cannot  cover the entire thing because now these two motions, 4 or 5 have been clubbed together. One of them is on a matter of policy and the other is.........

(Interruption)

Shri H. E. Pohshna :On a point of clarification Sir. There is a ruling of the Speaker on allowing  a motion.

Shri H. Hadem :But I am not  challenging that ruling.

(Interruption)

Mr. Deputy Speaker :I think I will regret the hon. Members not to disturb when an hon. Member is  speaking.

Shri H. Hadem : You have the power to...........

(Interruption)

        One point is that the officers of the Departments are charged as being corrupt. But Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  according to me both the parties are corrupt, one who offers  and also the one who receives ; one who asks  and the one who gives. And if the third person knows but does not take  any action he also is liable for prosecution. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, charging the Government officers  without any specific reasons or any specific charges, will not bring any improvement on the working of a Department nor on the policy of the Government. As such, I would like to suggest to the hon. Members that if they really want to be honest and sincere to their words, they should come forward with concrete  cases to the Government and if the Government does not take  any action in that particular matter, then and only then they may charge the Department or the Government itself. Since I have been given only 2 minutes and it  seems that the hon. Members by interrupting me, are afraid of my taking part in the discussion, I resume my seat . (laughter)

Shri H. Enowell Pohshna :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  I rise to support the cut motion and I suggest that there should be an immediate enquiry in to the matter since it  has roused  so much emotions and sentiments of a particular hon. Member. (loud laughter)

Mr. Deputy Speaker :Now I call upon the Minister-in-charge to reply.

(At this stage the Deputy Speaker left the Chamber and Shri P. G. Marbaniang took the Chair).

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State for R and D) :Mr. Chairman, Sir,  at the very outset I would like to say that I have very good reasons to believe that my friends and colleagues on the other side of the House would want me to be very brief. If Mr. Chairman, Sir, they do mean what they have expressed  I am prepared to answer to the entire debates  by only two sentences and sit down. But I doubt Mr. Chairman, Sir,  that nothing like that would satisfy the hon. Members on the other side of the  House, and therefore, as I will try to be brief and precise and specific, I will request my friends on the other side of the House to bear with me. In saying so I would like to add that besides many other defects  and weakness, I have another one i. e., my ability to speak fast. Now  from the discussion that we have had for the last two days on these two cut motions it seems that one of the most important points that have been raised is the question of delay in the implementation of plans and schemes of the Public Works Department, especially in respect of  roads. This is being the case, I would like to make a submission that I believe with all my heart that we, as a Government, are doing far better today through the P. W. D. than was done, say a few years ago. Nevertheless, I would also admit that it is a fact that the plans and schemes have not been implemented as expeditiously as we wanted them to be implemented. We, on this side of the House, share the anxiety of my friends and colleagues on the other side of the House in this respect. But I would like also to take this opportunity of requesting the hon. Members who have either directly or by implication alleged the Public Works Department as being far to slow too realise certain facts. The first fact, I am sure, they are fully aware of but which, I think needs to be re-emphasised, is  that the land acquisition procedure which has invariably to be resorted to in the implementation of any road schemes  in a long and time-consuming process. Then again Mr. Chairman, Sir, no road construction can be undertaken without first carrying out detailed survey and road alignment.  It is only after we have gone through this, which again is a time -taking process, that the Department can go ahead with the preparation of the detailed estimates. Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like also to remind the House that carrying out the detailed survey is a time-consuming process;  more  so in the hilly areas and in the areas which are covered by thick forest; and the process is not only time-consuming but in some cases it is a very costly affair also. Then the third point that I would like to re-emphasise for the consideration of the House is that after the detailed estimates have been prepared, the work had done through  contractors on the basis of open tender system. This again is a time-consuming process. Point No. 4. It is also possible, as has been the case in the past, that sometimes the work has been slowed down because of the shortage of building materials such as cement, iron steel and explosives etc. I know from my personal experience Mr. Chairman, Sir, that at time the contractor has also contributed to the delay in the completion of any particular work undertaken by the P. W. D. Mr. Chairman, Sir, I now thinking of the Inspection Bungalow now under construction at Maheskola. As far as we are concerned as the Department or even the Government, we have done our job. The work had been allotted to the contractor belonging to the schedule tribe. Moreover, he is a local person. But despite the pressure that we are putting on this contractor, the work is not progressing as expeditiously as we have wanted it to be. Now, I am saying Mr. Chairman, Sir, that the person might  have his difficulties and I think that may be the reason why this particular construction cannot be completed. It might be that they are facing financial difficulty ; it might be that he does not get necessary labourers and so on and so forth. That being the case I would request  the House through you Mr. Chairman, Sir,  to bear this factor also in mind. Now, with this 5,6, or 7 factors involved  which go to contribute  either making the implementation  expeditious or  not expeditious, it will be most unfair on the part of many hon. Members to try to put the  entire blame  on the Government with one stroke of a pen or in one simple sentence.

        Another very important point that has been raised  in the discussion yesterday and today has been on the poor standard  of workmanship. Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like to state that several factors go to affect the standard or quality of workmanship. One of the most important factors is the schedule of rates, as has been  very correctly pointed out by my friends on the other side of the House. In these  days of price rise, the  existing schedule of rates is no longer realistic. We in this side of the House would like to make it very clear that we are prepared to admit that unless the schedule of rates is not realistic. We are also aware of the fact that unless the schedule of rates is revised, there is very little that we can do anybody can do to improve the quality of work or standard of workmanship. Another factor affecting  the standard  of workmanship is the fact that many of the contractors do not possess the requisite experience. But as has been correctly stated yesterday by the hon. Member  from Pariong when he referred to the factor whether they have the requisite  experience or not, human beings as they are our contractor friends are just far too eager to tender  for works and also to complete. On several  occasions, our contractors are not fully realizing what is involved. Yet as I stated a moment ago,  being very eager and keen to get the  contract  they attempt to out bid by quoting  the ridiculously low rate, and in many instances, these rates are not only  ridiculously low, they are even not workable. As  was stated yesterday by other Members who participated in the discussion that it has become a fashion of the day to quote 10, 15 or 25 per cent below the schedule of rates and if I speak subject to correction, I may inform the House that in one particular instance one particular contractor even went to the extent of quoting 40 percent below. It only goes to show how very keen the contractors are to get work allotted to them.

        Now, Mr. Chairman, Sir, there is yet another factor contributing to affecting the standard of workmanship. This is some part of the statement I am about to make with a sense of shame. The factor that I now have in mind is the inefficient supervision or lack of sufficient and proper  supervision. But I would, after having made that statement, also like to remind myself and the hon. Members of the Houser that we are all human being and we are dealing with human beings, and therefore, despite the fact that Government may with that supervision should be class A and class B standard, it is not always possible. Nevertheless, although we realize that as human beings, we just cannot hope to reach or attain perfection complete perfection, yet Mr. Chairman, Sir, because the government realize the importance, the urgency and the need to improve supervision, we have already taken steps to strengthen the agency of supervision. And I would like to assume the House that Government will continue to make further attempts to improve supervision.

        Finally, I would like to submit, Mr. Chairman, Sir, that the most important factor affecting the standard of workmanship, not only in respect of the works undertaken by the Public Works Department, but in any matter also, is the human factor. In the past, I have had occasions to observe from a couple of platforms that any community, any society, any nation, any people cannot be expected to be greater than  the individuals who constitute that community, that society, that nation or that people. In other words, Mr. Chairman, Sir,  I would say that it is the individuals, who constitute a people or a community are hard-working, then only will we have  a community or a people who will be hard-working. If the individuals are honest, great an just then only can we expect the community, the society, the nation and the people to be honest, just and great. I hope, Mr. Chairman, Sir, that I will not be  misunderstood and it is only fervent hope Mr. Chairman, Sir, that I shall not be accused of being too harsh when I say that it is just possible that some of us  in this very House may have, on occasions in the past, out of friendship recommended contractors A, B, or C for a particular job,  without having taken into consideration the contractors ability, their past performance or even their suitability. It is just possible- I am not saying that I am aware of it, but I am saying that it is just possible, that this may have happened in the past, and if it has happened, then to me it means, Mr. Chairman, Sir, that if even we  have nothing, absolutely nothing to do  with roads and buildings construction works we have perhaps at times  consciously or unconsciously, advertently or inadvertently done something which is not very right or proper. And of course, Mr. Chairman, Sir, it goes without saying that unless we as a society, we as a people help each other, unless we are hard-working, honest and just and also help each other as contended by my friend, we will not be able to improve in my way. Unless we become people who can withstand the temptation of becoming rich overnight, it will not be possible or completely eradicate this most important factor, that is human  weakness which affects the standard  of workmanship, not only as I said earlier, in matters connected with Public Works Department, but in all developmental activities. I had mentioned, Mr. Chairman, Sir, that one of very important factors affecting the standard  of workmanship or quality of work is the question of schedule of rates.

        I have already stated that we on this side of the House fully realize that they are no longer realistic. Also I have stated that it forms one of very important factors  affecting the quality of work. Therefore, I would only like to  add that the Government has for quite sometime now been seized of the need to revise the schedule of rates. But, and this word but is with capital "B" the people's co-operation has not been forth coming. Then how can we, Mr. Chairman, Sir, justify the importance of the schedule of rates when the people continue to quote, as I said earlier, 10 or 15 per cent below. Therefore, I would join hands with one of the hon. Members of this House  who, while participating in this discussion, had invited  the co-operation of every single Member of this august House in educating the people.

        Now Mr. Chairman, Sir, one of the hon. Members while participating in the discussion has brought to the notice of this House, and more particularly to the notice of the Public Works Department, the case of the Department's failure to refund the security deposit of a certain contractor. This has been taken note of and I can assure  the hon. Member that the entire thing will be looked into as expeditiously  as possible. Then according to the notes I have here before me that I took down yesterday the hon. Member from Nongspung. Mr. Syiemiong, had yesterday expressed his disappointment no, his disapproval, Mr. Chairman, Sir, of the inclusion of he said - "a short little road" leading almost to nowhere serving a population of 32 people' and he had also very correctly stated that quite  a few lakhs of rupees had been spent. If my memory serves me correctly, rupees three lakhs and three thousand something have been spent on this project. It is true if we look only at the length of the road  and try to determine that it is impossible to believe that such a huge  amount has been spent. I would say that I agree a hundred per cent  with the hon. Member from Nongspung. But as I had to reply to one of the questions, probably this morning, this road is included because it is expected to serve a mining area. Having stated the facts connecting this particular road which, I think, the hon. Member had in mind. I would also like to take this opportunity  of reminding  the House of the fact that road schemes and plans are prepared on the basis of the  recommendation the Government, received from the public representatives like M. Ps , M. L. A.s M . D. Cs and so on and so forth. Then sometimes it also transpired that a public  representation is made by the people themselves  without any reference  to the elected representatives. Then on occasions it also transpired, Mr. Chairman, Sir,  that certain  roads have been included  on the recommendations made by the administration  and the various  limbs of the administration, thereby meaning various Departments serve to assist in implementing the industrial policy of the State and so on and so forth. Therefore, I would say that although after correctly examining the scheme, it would appear that it was something that was not really necessary, the facts  are that this side of the House think that we were fully justified in having  undertaken the Scheme. Then I would also like to add that on receipt of the recommendations made by the public leaders and the public themselves and the Government Departments these plans and schemes are examined by the State Planning Advisory Board and after this, they are again re-examined by the State planning Board, but then the plan of the entire State has to be approved by the Planning Commission itself. Therefore, I would like to dispel any doubts which the hon. Members may have in their mind concerning the correctness of the process through which  we follow, before a particular scheme is taken up. Then a disapproval has been voiced against the allotment of work to the Shramic Bahinis. I wish I had a better memory as that would have enabled me to repeat the arguments put forward by one of the hon. Members from this side of the House. But my memory is not so good, nor am I a stenographer  who would have been able to take down varbatim notes. Therefore, I am afraid I will not be able to reproduce  those convincing  arguments  put forward by the hon. Member, in the matter of the allotment  of work of the Shramik Bahinis. But I would say that it is our attention to implement the general accepted policy to encourage the co-operation movement that we, as a Government, have on certain occasions in the past allotted works to the Shramik Bahinis, but though we have done so in the past, I would not hesitate to admit. Mr. Chairman, Sir, that I am not in a position to prove the correctness of the information I have. But I do not have ears to hear and  have also heard that some of these Shramik Bahinis are bogus  and they are not genuine. The question is, how do I find out.  Therefore, I would request the entire House and more especially the hon. Member who has voiced disapproval of settling the contract with the Shramik Bahinis to kindly come forward with concrete proof to show that Shramik Bahinis X or Z or Y is bogus and not genuine. I can assure  him that we shall not hesitate to rectify matters, I would also like to say in this regard that if Government or Department is let down by any of the Shramik Bahinis, the course open to the officers and the entire Government is very clear that particular Shramik Bahinis will be black listed immediately and if necessary even the work already allotted will be cancelled (voices- The office bearers also punished) provided it can be proved. We have to prove  it not in the moral court but in the court of law which is not so easy.

        Now, Mr. Chairman, Sir,  the hon. Member from Malki has had occasion to state in fact to demand that the estimates should be made realistic. I presume that while dealing with the question of the schedule of rates, I have already partially, if not completely, answered to that point raised by the hon. Member from Malki. We, as a Government, are fully aware of the fact that not only the schedule of rates be revised but even the estimates prepared under the existing schedule of rates should be revised if they are not realistic. As proof of our awareness Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would also like to quote an instance of the buildings of the Basic Training Centre at Sohiong. The original estimates were in the vicinity of Rs. 5 lakhs. They have now been raised to over 12 lakhs. This fact, I think, will prove beyond any shadow of doubt that it is not only that we are doing the need of today, but we have done in the past and we shall continue to do it wherever  necessary.

        Now, a very unfortunate statement was made by the hon. Member from Pariong. I cannot quote him verbatim. In effect, he said that P. W. D. work is allotted due to political exercised by M. L. As and on that I am quite sure it is received 'M. L. A.s' on the pressure exercised by M. L. A.s and those in high position. He used the word 'high-ups'. I only hope to God, Mr. Chairman, Sir, that it is not a fact. It is absolutely wrong for any hon. Member of this august House to use his position or to use his office to this end. The hon. Member from Pariong has also gone one step further  in the same vein and said  something to the effect that the work is allotted only to those who belong to the Ruling Party. On this count, Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like to confess that I am not in a position to either confirm or  refute  the allegation for the simple reason. Mr. Chairman, Sir, that I as a Minister of State holding this particular  portfolio, have made it a point not to interfere with the functioning of the officers in this regard. The Sub-divisional Officers at  their level, the E. Es at their  level, the Superintending Engineers at their level and the Additional C. E. and C. E. at their level, allot the work without my knowledge  or without  the knowledge  of the Leader of the House because we do not believe  in interference with the functioning of the officers. Therefore, the question of pressure being exercised by the so-called high-ups just does not arise. Then also Mr. Chairman, Sir,  as of  today, I have not scrutinised, I have not stopped  down to the level of scrutinising  the list of contractors with whom certain contract work has been settled, and definitely not with the intention  to find out and to tick mark in green to those  who belong  to the Ruling Party and tick  mark in red to those who belong to the Opposition Party. I have never  done  it and I shall never do it.  Just  the other day most unfortunately the hon. Member from Mawthengkut progress of the work  concerning some  bridges  between  Nongdaju and Nongshram  and he was told by the Executive  Engineer  that the work had been allotted. But the contractor had not done  anything and the hon. Member was helpless because  the said contractor was very friendly with the Minister. I say it is very unfortunate  for the hon., Member, but not so unfortunate, because I  am far too thick skinned to either bring  forward as breach of privilege motion or to take this case up in the court of law because an element of defamation is involved. But I would very categorically state once more that the fact that this particular  work was settled with somebody  known as Lahonty Limited etc. came to my knowledge only when that information was volunteered on the floor of this House by members of that side and I want my friends to know that I just  do not know what he looks like. I may  meet him today, but I will not know that I have met him and no contractor has ever come to my house nor to my office. I do not encourage that practice. So I would also like, in this connection to state that having heard as I said earlier I have heard whispering from Members of that side of the House alleging that most of the contractors  in certain divisions are either Members or supporters or well-wishers  of the party sitting on this side of the house. I want that also to be known and recorded  correctly, and in any case, Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would like to give a friendly advice to my friends that it helps neither the Members sitting on this side nor Members sitting on that side nor does it help the Government nor the State to carry on these whisperings.

Shri S. D. Khongwir : But what is the truths ?

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State, P. W. D.) :The contract  is settled on the basis of merit of a tender submitted. That is the truth, and as long as we, on this side of the House, continue to be in office, that will be the criterion.

        Then , Mr. Chairman, Sir,  it has also been brought to the notice of the House by the hon. Member from Pariong that  the Department is suffering on account of an acute  shortage of trained  Moharirs  or Section Assistants. I would go a step further and admit, Mr. Chairman, Sir, that the shortage exists not only  at the lower rung of the ladder but even on the higher rung also. But I would not admit the charge that the Government is doing nothing on account of this. We even today have a Polytechnic located in Mawlai which is training our young boys. Then, we have also at all times in the past taken every available opportunity to encourage our young men to go in for engineering, medical studies and so on and so forth . 

Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh : Training for Moharirs also ?

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State, P. W. D.) :Yes, some steps have been taken and further  steps will be taken. Now quite a few of the Members who have participated in the debate  on these  two Cut Motions have named  certain roads. I have requested  the Officers concerned to make a note of all those roads. But the point I am trying to make is  this:  That the hon. Members in naming those roads, have also claimed that they are either very important or some have used a Superlative degree and said "The most important roads in the State". Now, I would only add. Mr. Chairman, Sir, that if such roads have been included  in the Fifth-Five Year Plan, it is fortunately and it is a very happy position because it goes to say that Members on both sides of the House agree on the priority given to those roads. But if the roads that have been claimed to be very important or "The most important roads" have not found place in the Scheme of work it is just unfortunate, in that, we, who are sitting on this side of the House do not agree with the Members sitting on the other side in the fixation of  priorities and importance. Now, the criticism has been made against the choice, the selection of contractors with whom contract is settled. And, efforts have been made to create the impression that the interest of the local contractors is going by the default. And, effort has been made to create the impression that this Government is not  mindful of the interests of the local contractors . This, Mr. Chairman, Sir, is not a fact. The Government policy is very clear in this regard. Officers have been instructed to settle contracts subject, of course, to economy and expediency of execution. The work should be settled - is to be settled with local contractors - not only  local contractors- But it has also been stipulated that preference should be given to contractors belonging to the Scheduled Tribes. Not only has the Government issued instructions in this regard  but it is its intention to see that the instructions in this regard but it  is its intention to see that the instructions are carried out. Further instructions have been issued in the form of circulars requiring all the field officers to submit periodical reports.

        Another point that has been raised and in fact, suggestions made, in this regard, is the need to split up some of the Divisions because it has been contended by the hon. Members that these Divisions are far too large. I would like to inform the hon. Members who have made this proposal that Government is in agreement with them and that we are not only fully aware of the need to split up some of these Divisions but that the process has already been started  towards this end. Then, a very strong opposition has been voiced against the appointment of the so called outsiders as Subordinate Engineers. I would, on this issue, make two brief statements. The first one is that we, as the Government, have had it perforce to appoint outsiders as Subordinate Engineers because none is available from within the State. The second point is that these appointments are not, in any way, going to affect the employment opportunities of the young men belonging to the Scheduled Tribes, to the young men belonging to the State because we are sure of one fact that by the time the young men who are now under going training, pass our from their studies, we assure, there will be plenty of scope to absorb them in the State.

        A very categorical statement was demanded by the hon. Members from Nongstoin, Mr. Mawlot, concerning the case of Rs. 73,000 something something, paid  to U Iang Swer. May I, through you, Mr. Chairman, Sir, remind the  hon. Member that I personally had the opportunity of replying to a question tabled on this very issue in the previous Session and I had then the occasion to inform the House that the Bill had been paid by the Executive Engineer concerned on the strength of  identification made by the contractor well-known to the Executive Engineer concerned and unfortunately, today I am not in a position to state at which stage of examination the case is. But I would like to  inform the hon. Member and the entire House that the case has not been closed by Government  and we are still exercised  on this matter. Then as a result of the reminder, we have received in the form of the demand made by  the hon. Member from Nongstoin, I can assure  him that we shall make every possible effort to expedite the examination of the case. Now, I do not have the name recorded of the hon. Member who raised this point, but I think  he is  the hon. Member from Mawhati. He referred to the Rangthong Kyniong road and said that he had the occasion to see that one end of the road is going this way and the other end is coming the other way and the only possible way to get from one end of  the road to the other end is by means of ladder. In respect of this particular road, I would like to inform the Member, who is not present in the House at the moment, he might be listening - that the road has not been completed, it is in the  process of being constructed and when it is completed, I am quite sure that there will be no need for the use of a ladder....((interruptions)... They are consuming their own valuable time. I am prepared to sit down if they want to intervene. As I have said at the beginning, I have every good reason to believe that I was expected to be very brief because I am quite sure the  hon. Members from the other side of the House would like to get an opportunity of discussing the other Cut Motions on other Grants. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, Sir, before I resume my seat, I would like  to throw out some suggestions for your consideration and also for the consideration of the hon. Mover of the Cut Motion- I think  he is the hon. Member from Pariong  to consider the advisability and even at this stage, to seek the leave of the House to club together Cut Motion No. 6. with Cut Motions Nos. 4 and 5 because  I noticed the intention is to raise a discussion on the standard of workmanship and the need to revise the scheduled rates and so on. I have already touched on these two points for quite a length of time also. I think it is only possible, at this stage, to seek leave of the House to get Cut Motion No. 6 clubbed together  with Cut Motions Nos. 4 and 5. I would like to  express my gratitude to the various Movers of the various Cut Motions and also Members who have participated on the debate of this Cut Motions and also the Members who have participated on the debate of this Cut Motion for the very valuable suggestions they have made and information volunteered. I take that the criticisms have been made in a spirit of trying to be helpful. We accept these criticisms without any rancour. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, Sir, with these few words, I request the hon. Movers to withdraw their Cut Motions

Shri S. D. Khongwir :Mr. Chairman, Sir, before you call upon the Mover I want to have a few clarifications. In the course of the reply by the Hon'ble Minister of State, he has mentioned about the discussion of the speech of the hon. Member from Mawthengkut regarding some bridges from Nongstoin to Nongshram and in this reply, the Minister has said that the statement made by the hon. Member involves a case of privileges or defamation and if he is not thick skinned he will bring this matter  before the court of law. I want clarification on this very serious and very important point. I have a copy of the Constitution of India here and Article 194, Clause (2) describes the powers and privileges of State Legislature and Members . It says- "No Member of the Legislature of a State shall be liable of any proceedings in  any Court in respect of anything said or any vote given by him in that Legislature or any Committee thereof, and no person shall be so liable in respect of publication  by or under the authority of a House of such a Legislature of  any report, paper, votes or proceedings.

Mr. Chairman :This is outside the House.

Shri S. D. Khongwir : No, Sir, it is inside the House. The hon. Member from Mawthengkut has made a statement saying that he cannot do anything about the Contractor because he was related to the Minister or something like that. The Hon'ble Minister has made a reply that this matter involves defamation and breach of privilege and it can be brought in a court of law. And because  Mr. Chairman, Sir, this is a very important, can we have a categorical clarification about this question ?

Mr. Chairman :In view of what has been written in the Constitution, I think there is no need to take it up outside.

Shri H. S. Lyngdoh :Mr. Chairman, Sir, apart from that, the expression given by the Minister must be expunged from the proceedings of the House or it may be challenged and brought in a court of law.

Shri D. D. Pugh Minister of State, P. W. D. : After being enlightened on the provision of the Constitution, I would like to amend my statement and therefore,  it does not  become liable in a court of law. But the fact is that it is fit case to be brought the Privileges Committee of this House.

Mr. Chairman : Is there any more ?

Shri W. Syiemiong :Mr. Chairman, Sir, the Minister has taken about one hour in his replies  and they are very exhaustive. But we want more clarification and if he can give us, we shall appreciate it very much. I would like to know about the road leading to a mine . The road from Umsyiem which leads to this mine. To whom does this mine belong ? That is number one. Number two. I appreciate that Government has clarified that the matter in regard to allotting of work., priority is given to local contractors or local people and not to favorites. But Sir, we have a specific  case. I have mentioned yesterday that as many as thirty contractors have been to the E. C. from Mawsynram Division because they have not been getting work for years together. They have written to the C. E. for not having received work in the last two or three years. It seems Government is not aware of it or the Department is not concerned with the orders given by Government.

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State, P. W. D.) :Mr. Chairman, Sir, as I said in the  morning and as was implied, I am not in a position to state either the size of the mine, or how much coal is there  under the earth and to whom the mine belongs. But the point that I was trying to clarify is the basis of the road schemes which are included  or not in any Plan of the State  and it is in that context  I have occasion to say  that this  road  was included  because a public demand was submitted asking that this particular road 3 kms. in length and serving the interest of the State because it leads  to the mining area.

        Now about the specific case mentioned by the hon. Member from Nongspung, that about 30 contractors have written a complaint for not receiving any work for one or two years. I have not seen this complaint or even a joint complaint. But to make one point clear, even as an individual, Mr. Chairman, Sir, I will try to find out if there have been some cases of victimization if  I may put it that way and on our own  initiative, we will try to find out from the officers why the contractors whether  contractor A, B or C was not allotted work during the past two or three years. If it transfers that the rates quoted by them were favourable  in comparison with the rates quoted by other contractors with whom the works were settled, then, of course we interfere and we would say that in the interest of justice this should not  be repeated  in future. But it will help us if a copy of that complaint is given to me.

Shri W. Syiemiong : I will give you a copy tomorrow or day after tomorrow and I will hand it you personally. One more point Mr. Chairman, Sir, if my information is not wrong that coal mine belongs to somebody. (Interruption)

(Voices  : It must belong to somebody).

        So I see no reason why Government has to spend so much money.

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State P. W. D) :Exploitation of the mines will improve  the economic condition of our State. So  whether it belongs to one individuals or 32 inhabitants of that village it does not matter.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Mr. Chairman, Sir,  in course of his reply, the Minister said that the bill was paid by the .....................(interruption)

Mr. Chairman :He said that the case is still under study.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :Mr. Chairman, Sir, it is three years now and I wonder why it has taken such a long time. (interruption).

Mr. Chairman. :Sometimes it takes more than five years.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :Mr. Chairman, Sir,  you may remember that in reply to my question, in the last winter session, the Minister stated that it is not possible to expect the Executive Engineer to recognized each and every contractors. Now how does he recognized the contractor when he said that the bill was paid on the strength of the identification by the contractor who is well known to the Executive Engineer ? So I would like the Minister to give a clarification on this point.

Shri H. Hadem : I think this is not necessary, Sir. It tallies with the previous statement made by the Minister in the last session because he stated that the Executive Engineer does not recognized each and every contractor. So identification is necessary and the Minister has already stated this.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :Mr. Chairman, Sir, as the prospective Minister has said, (interruption).

Shri H. Hadem :Sir, that is an insult and I take exception to that. If the Member does not withdraw..............(interruption).

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :I do not agree Mr. Chairman, Sir,. If now the statements of the Minister is on the basis of identification made then will he be kind enough to tell us who was the contractor who made the identification.

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State, P. W. D. ) :Mr. Chairman, Sir, I made a reference to the reply which I had made some months ago out of  memory, and I am not in a position to say as to who the contractor was who made the identification and the best course if to refer to the proceedings of the House.

Shri S. D. Khongwir : On this particular point we have written to the Minister, about 4 or 5 months ago. So, it is not a new thing.

Mr. Chairman : This case is being investigated by the Government. Now, I will close the discussion.. What about the movers of the cut motions No. 4 and 5 ? Are they going to withdraw ?

Shri W. Syiemiong  : After hearing  the reply of the Minister that he will take care of all the points raised, we beg to withdraw the cut motions.

Mr. Chairman : Have the hon. Members leave of the House to withdraw the cut motion ? (Voices-yes, yes). The cut motions are with  leave of the House withdrawn.

        Now we have cut motion No. 6 . which stands in the name of Shri  Upstar Kharbuli. In view of the reply given by the Minister, do you intend to move it ?

Shri Upstar Kharbuli : I think I have spoken enough on this very Grant. So, I do not see any further need to move the cut motion. So I will not move it.

Mr. Chairman :Now I put the main question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs. 1,77,19,700 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the head " 259-Public Works".

(After a pause)

        The motion is carried and the demand is passed. Now we come to Grant No. 21. Chief Minister to move.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :Mr. Chairman, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor I beg to move that an amount of Rs. 7,62,000 be granted  to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges  which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the "265-Other Administration Services-Civil Defence and Home Guards".

Mr. Chairman : Motion moved. As there is no cut motion, I put the main question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs. 7,62,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "265-Other Administration Services-I-Civil  Defence and Home Guards".

        The Motion is carried. The demand is passed.

        Now, I will ask the Minister-in-charge to move  Grant No. 22.

Shri S. D. D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Transport) :Mr. Chairman, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs. 2,34,700 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March 1975 for the administration of the "265-Other Administrative Services-II-Motor Garages, etc.

Mr. Chairman :Motion moved. As there is no cut motion, I put the main question before the House. the question is that an amount of Rs. 2,34,700 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the head "265-Other Administrative Services-II-Motor Garages, etc".

        The Motion is carried. The demand is passed .

        Now, one of the Ministers to move Grant No. 23.

Shri S. D. D. Nichols Roy (Minister, Transport) :Mr. Chairman, Sir, on the recommendation of Governor, I beg to move that an amount  of Rs. 41,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges  which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March 1975 for the administration of the "265-Other Administrative Services-III-Gazetteer and Statistical Memoirs".

(At this stage, the Deputy Speaker took the Chair).

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion I put the main question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs. 41,000 be granted  to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975, for the Administration of the head "265-Other Administrative Services-III-Gazetteer and Statistical Memoirs".

        The Motion is carried. The demand is passed.

        Now, the Chief Minister to move the Grant No. 24.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs. 5,50,500 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the "265-Other Administrative Services-IV-Census, Vital  Statistics, Guest House, etc".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion  I put the main question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs. 5,50,500 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "265-Other Administrative Services-IV-Census, Vital Statistics, Guest House, etc."

        The motion is carried. The demand is passed.

        Chief Minister to move Grant No. 25.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :On the recommendation of the Governor, I beg Sir, to move that an amount of Rs. 72,300 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the  "265-Other Administrative Services-V-Miscellaneous Administrative Services".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion, I put the main question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs. 72,300  be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come  in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the Administration of the head "265-Other Administrative Services-V-Miscellaneous Administrative Services".

        The motion is carried. The demand is passed.

        Now, may I request the Finance Minister to move Grant No. 26.

Shri B. B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Finance) :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on recommendation of the Governor, I beg, to move that an amount of Rs. 11,29,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the "266-Pension other Retirement Benefits".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion I put the main question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs. 11,29,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the Administration of the head "266-Pension and other  Retirement Benefits".

        The motion is carried. The demand is passed.

        Now, may I ask the Finance Minister to move the Grant No. 28.

Shri B. B. Lyngdoh (Minister, Finance) :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs. 5,69,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course  of payment during the year ending 31st March, for the Administration of the "268-Miscellaneous General Services, Pre-partition Payments, State Lotteries, Pension for distinguished Services".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :Motion moved. Since there is  no cut motion I put the main question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs. 5,69,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment  during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the Administration of the head "268-Miscellaneous General Services, Pre-partition Payments, State Lotteries, Pensions for distinguish Services".

        The motion is carried . The demand is passed.

        Grant No. 29, Chief Minister to move.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs. 3,89,000, be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the "276-Secretariat Social and Community Services-I-Civil Departments".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion I put the main question before the House. The question  is that an amount of Rs. 3,89,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge  to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the head "276-Secretarial Social and Community Services-I-Civil Departments".

        The motion is carried. The demand is passed.

        Grant No. 30. Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering to move.

Shri Sandford K. Marak (Minister, Health) :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs. 76,000, be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the administration of the "276-Secretariat Social and Community Services-II-Public  Health Engineering Secretariat".

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion, I put the main question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs. 76,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975, for the administration of head "276-Secretariat Social and Community Services -II-Public Health Engineering Secretariat ".

        The motion is carried. The demand is passed.

        Grant No. 31. Chief Minister to move. 

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs. 3,52,90,400, be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1975 for the administration of the "277-Education".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :  Motion moved. But  I have received cut motions in the names of Shri Lewis Bareh, Shri Edward Kurbah, Shri  Dhrubanath Joshi, Shri Hopingstone Lyngdoh, Shri Francis K. Mawlot, Shri S.D. Khongwir and Shri Rowell Lyngdoh. Now I shall call upon Shri Bareh to  move his cut motion.

Shri H. Hadem :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on a point of order. This cut motion No. 1 as it appears, falls under Rule 145(c) as the amount of the demand counted to be reduced is by Rs. 100 and, as such, it must be a "token cut". According to the notice for this particular motion, it indicates that the member wants  to raise a discussion on the administration of Primary Schools, allotment Policy of Grants-in-aid for Primary Schools and Secondary Schools. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to submit that this cut motion is that this cut motion is not in order and as such it may be rejected.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if I remember correctly, Hon'ble Speaker had already given his ruling on this.

Shri H. Hadem :The Speaker, have his ruling in respect of the  first list and not on the second list of Grants.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : This is a challenge against the ruling  of the Speaker. Once he has admitted the cut motions, it must be presumed that they are in order.

Shri S. D. Khongwir :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a fact that all the cut motions should percolate through the Speaker and unless he has approved these cut motions, these would not have come before the House. Therefore, it may be constructed that they are in order since he approved.

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State, P. W. D) :The Speaker's ruling was in respect of the first list.

Prof. M. N. Majaw : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, under Rule 147 of the Rule of Procedure and Conduct of Business it has been laid down that the Speaker shall decide whether a cut motion is or is  not admissible under these  rules and may disallow any cut motion when in his opinion it is an abuse of the right of  moving cut motion................." Therefore, since the Hon'ble Speaker has approved this cut motion, this must be in order even though there are some discrepancies here  and there. Moreover, the Speaker, has the residuary power under Rule 315 whereby he may also suspend any Rules of Procedure.............

Shri H. Hadem : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to submit here that the hon. Member has read out some portions of Rule 147 only to his benefit; he has read out the whole thing. Rule 147 says "The  Speaker, shall decided ...........of the right of moving cut motion or it is calculated to obstruct or prejudicially affect the procedure of the House or is in contravention of these  rules....."

Prof. M. N. Majaw :It is not "circulated" the word is calculated. Even your glasses are betraying.

Shri H. Hadem :Yes, you may take my glasses too.

(Laughter)

Shri H. Hadem :Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  I take that the cut motion is in "contravention" of these Rules and, as such is liable to be rejected.

Shri S. D. Khongwir : Whether it is regular  or irregular, Speaker has already  admitted.

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State, P. W. D.) :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, listing  of cut motion here is no indication that the cut motion is in  order or out  of order or is it admissible because it has been published and printed and circulated. But it is your prerogative to decide whether a particular  cut motion is in order  or out of  order.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : I have approved this cut motion  but I would request the hon. Members to confine to the particular grievances specified in the motion as per Rule 145. Now I call upon Shri Lewis  Bareh to move his cut motion.

Shri Lewis Bareh  :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that a total provision of Rs. 3,52,90,400 under Grant No. 31 Major head "277-Education", Sub-head II-Education Department at page 160 of the budget be reduced to Rs.100, i.e.,  the amount of the whole grant of Rs. 3,52,90,400 do stand reduced by Rs.100.

Deputy Speaker :Motion moved. You can now initiate discussion.

Shri Lewis Bareh : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to bring to the notice of the House a few facts in connection with this matter so that other hon. Members may get ample chance to take part in the discussion of the standard  of education in the primary and secondary  schools. With regard to education in the primary schools, we have seen there are two agencies. One agency is the District Council and the other is the local bodies. So Sir, in so far as education sponsored by the District Councils is concerned., it appears  to me  that there are two types of primary schools. One type is the Government Lower Primary School and the other is the non-Government Lower Primary school. Sir, it is very difficult to differentiate which schools and which schools and how many of them are non-Government Primary schools. Moreover it is also difficult even for the teachers themselves to know whether they are teaching under the Government Primary schools  or under the Government Primary schools. Then again, Sir, with regard to the policy  of allotment of grants-in-aid to  the Government  Lower Primary schools, especially for the school buildings, it is really very regrettable  to know that allotment of such grants for the Primary school buildings not done in such  a way that it will suit  the interest of those  schools. Because Sir, most of those primary schools buildings are in a deplorable condition which the District Councils do not allot any grant  to construct such buildings in a better way in the interest of the pupils  attending the school. Sir, now, I will come to the last item regarding the  Secondary Schools for which the Finance Minister in his budget speech has clearly stated that a huge sum of money had been allotted in connection with the grant of scholarships and the stipends to the border students, studying  in the schools. But it is  very disheartening  to note that many students from the  border areas did not even know anything regarding  his grant of stipends and scholarship. As such, most of them were being deprived of this educational facility. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to  request the Government to please give a wide publication in this respect so that the border students studying in the secondary schools and other schools will get this benefit which the Government if giving. With these few words Sir, I resume my seat.

Shri H. E. Pohshna :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the cut motion and in doing so, I would request the Minister of State for Education to pay particular attention to the points raised by the hon. mover of this cut motion although from the  very fact that a very  serious point of order has been raised here to block this cut motion because it might expose the failure of the Government to provide good shelter for the poor border  students in the rural areas. Last week, the rain was so heavy, especially in the border areas, and most of the schools remained closed due to leaking of water in the schools buildings.

Shri Humphrey Hadem : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I take  strong objection to the remark of the hon. Member when the  stated that the hon. Member has raised a point of order with the intention to block the cut motion.

Shri H. E. Pohshna : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  I accept the objection.

(Laughter)

Mr. Deputy Speaker :Simply a point of order but not a block on discussion.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :While raising a point of order I have a right to get your ruling and that the matter referred to by the hon. Member should be expunged from the proceedings of the House.

Shri H. E. Pohshna :Well,  I have accepted his objection. Another serious point, Sir, is that most of the schools in rural areas especially during the last fortnight, because of a very heavy rain and because most of the schools going children  cannot attend, the schools had to be closed. It is also very serious as their health has been affected. Therefore, I would request the Government, although these primary schools fall within the preview of the District Councils, to help them with grants come from the Government. Regarding the scholarship  that has been provided  for the border areas, this matter is well-known to every body  I do request that our Minister of state , Education, who has been very kind on his reply to the previous discussion, kindly also consider to compensate  the loss of the non-grating of scholarship to the poor border students in the border areas. With these few words, I resume my seat.

Shri D. N. Joshi : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while supporting this Cut Motion. I have certain observations to make regarding Grant-in-aid to the Primary Schools. I find in the rural  areas many Primary schools are being manned by only one teacher. In a  primary school, there are 5 classes say A, B, 1, 2, and 3 and it is quite strange how on earth one teacher can teach 5 classes. Our Government which is committed to welfare state for all should come up with schemes to recruit at least 5 teachers for 5 classes. I therefore, advocate that there should be six teachers in the primary schools of the State, including the headmaster six teachers in the primary schools of the state including the headmaster who has to look to the supervision work also. But up till now, even in the century the schools  are manned only by one teacher which is a strange thing. So I would request the Government, through you, Sir, to see that each class get a teacher in the primary schools of the State. So these  few words I support the Cut Motion. Thank you.

Shri Jormanik Syiem :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would oppose the cut motion because the lower primary schools are under the District Councils. The grants for buildings  are not directly given by Government  but through the Blocks. So the mover of the cut motion should have approached the District Council in the first instance for these  buildings. He should apply first to the Block Development Board. Then Sir, as regards the number of teachers as one of the hon. Member said that these primary schools should be manned by six teachers, I think it is not correct to say so. That is not the criterion for appointing  teachers. It is on the number of the pupils who have been enrolled in the schools that the required  number of teachers should be determined. But even in that case, it is not for the Government to dictate to the District Councils for appointing  teachers meant for the lower primary schools under the District Councils . It is upto the District Councils to see how many teachers are needed for each primary schools under this charge. So with these few words, I oppose the Cut Motion.

Shri S. D. Khongwir : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also rise to support the Cut Motion. But I would like to confine myself within one part of the administration of primary schools. In this connection, I have not got only a few observations to make by way of suggestion to the Government. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I in my opinion, think that the Government should make it point to achieve  the goal, that is tp get as many young children as possible of a certain age group to read in the primary schools. I think that goal should be the primary objective and aim of the Government. I understand Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that it is not easy to achieve that desired goal. I know it will take a long time to achieve  it. For this,  Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  we should realise that we have to open more and more L. P. schools and with the present existing number of L. p. schools it will not suffice to serve the entire villages, especially when a school is established in the sparsely populated tribals area.

        Another point, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is about imparting of training to the L. P. Schools teachers. It is a fact that most of the L. P. Schools Teachers to take care of the young children. They should know how to guide them, they should have some skill how to deal with young children of different age groups. To attain this end, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, i would suggest to the Government to try their level best to open up more training centres for the L. P. School teachers.

        Then, another, point Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is about hour of teaching. In the L. P. Schools in the rural areas , we find the school hours are only for about 1 to 1 hours only . So my suggestion is: let us increase the school hours a little  bit by increasing the pay of the Lower Primary Schools teachers and let us make for more hours for the primary schools. So that the teachers can devote their duty in the L. P. School.

        Another point is my suggestion to the Government to provide also for some book-grants for young children especially in the rural areas  because most of the children come from the poor families and they cannot afford to purchase a small text book. Therefore, I suggest that Government should provide some more book-grants for purchase of text-books.

        Then I would also like to suggest as already suggested to the mover of the cut motion that Government should improve the school buildings especially in the rural areas because Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  from my personal experience, I have come across many school buildings which are old ........

Mr. Deputy Speaker :You mean which school. The Primary or the Secondary school buildings ?

Shri S. D. Khongwir :I mean the Primary School buildings. I therefore, I suggest that Government  should examine the grants enhance the grants for the school buildings given to the District Councils so that they, in their turn, can give grants to the schools concerned under their charges for improvement of their school buildings.

        One more point, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  is the relationship between teachers and the parents in the L. P. Schools. It is a known fact, Mr.  Deputy Speaker, Sir, as somebody has also said, that education commences at the mother's knee. So, in giving  education to the child, the home has got a very important part to play, and the home  and school combined together, I think, can do a lot of work for the improvement of the school children. So I suggest that teachers  appointed in the L. P. schools make it a point to try to improve both parents and children and sits down together with them and discuss various problems with regard to improvement of school children. Moreover,  Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  I would also like to suggest to Government to instruct the teachers of these schools to impart  teaching to the children in matters of punctuality, honesty, cleanliness and discipline. Then my last  point is that why we cannot start teaching Hindi right from the very  beginning in the L. p. Schools. So I would improve upon the Government to consider  this aspect of the matter so that we can have an early start of learning Hindi in L. P. section. So with these words, I resume my seat and support the cut motion.

Shri Humphrey Hadem : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  I stand to oppose the Cut Motion. As far as it is at present, primary education has been with the District Councils. I mean the present primary education has been with the District Council, areas in Khasi  Hills with the Khasi Hills District Council and areas in the Jaintia Hills with the Jaintia Hills District Council. As such, Sir, this is not the  proper forum to ventilate the grievances as far as  the primary schools  are concerned and as such. Sir, the proper  place  to ventilate  the grievances if there is any, is with the District Council authorities concerned. So I do not understand how this matter came up before this House. probably, it seems that nobody dared to approach the District Council authorities who are the right persons to look into this matter and to see that things  will be made right.

        Secondly,  Sir, regarding school  buildings, not only that the District Councils had given some grants for the improvement of schools buildings for the construction of school buildings, but even the Block Developing  Committees had also played  an important  part on the matter and with a very small amount at their disposal, they are trying their level best to help in the improvement  of the school buildings  in the rural areas and I think all Members of this House have got a  hand in it being also Members of the Block Development Committees. One hon. Member had advocated  a new policy to the Government, that is, that the Government  should start creating special scholarships for this primary school students. Sir, if this policy be adopted, we will be  enjoying  hearing  complaints after complaints. We experienced  dissatisfaction even when special scholarships were, at present, granted to the Middle School students, I mean those reading in the Middle English Schools, how much  more it would be then in view of paucity of funds. So the  scholarship be extended  to the primary schools too, I do not know  how many complaints, dissatisfaction, the primary schools too, I do not know how many complaints, dissatisfaction, grievances will be brought before the House. So Sir, with these few words, I think a proper forum for matters concerning the primary schools will be the District Councils and not this House, and I strongly oppose the Cut Motion .

Shri Francis K. Mawlot : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  at the very first instance, i differ with the hon. Member from Mynso-Raliang who said that this is not  a proper forum to discuss things relating to primary education. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will  be one of the  first to dance  if the State Government declares that it has not more  control over the District Council, But Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  we are bound the District Council is most under the State Government and whatever grant the District Council is  distributing, it is  doing so on behalf  of the State Government and from their allocation. The amount is allotted by the State Government to the District Councils which the District Councils will distribute to the L. P. Schools. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I fully support  the Cut Motion and I would make a request to the Government to have it examined thoroughly whether these proposals, as given by the  hon. Members from different sections are applicable or not and if they are applicable  Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not see any reason why there  should be so much opposition to this Cut Motion.

Shri S. D. Khongwir (Mawlai S. T.) :On a point of clarification, the hon. Member has raised a point whether  this matter can be discussed in this august House. So before we go ahead, can we get a clarification so that the discussion will not go in vain, whether this a proper forum where we can discuss this matter of lower primary schools? I understand Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that the State Government has got financial control and the right to direct the District Councils, and if I am not mistaken, in a recent case, the High Court of Gauhati, has passed a judgment that the State Government has got overall supervision over the district Councils. Can we get a clarification whether we can raise this  matter on the floor of this House ?

Shri D. D. Pugh (Minister of State for Education) :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to submit that no ruling is necessary because every Member of this House has the liberty to express his opinion, and that opinion may or may not be accepted by the House. It is in the exercise of that liberty, that the hon. Member from Mynso-Raliang has expressed his opinion and the entire House has the liberty to either accept or reject the opinion. So I do not see any necessity for ruling being given.

Shri Francis K. Mawlot :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I differ with the Member from Nongshken rather the Hon'ble Minister. This House consists of responsible Members, and I repeat, if we say anything in this House, this has to  be taken very seriously. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we demand  your ruling on this or whether we should accept  the arguments put forward by the Hon'ble Minister...........

(interruption)

Shri Humphrey Hadem : Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, i have said that the District Councils mainly establish the primary schools according to the Sixth Schedule of the Constitution, and as such,. the proper body to bring up the grievances is the body which takes up the management of these institutions. If I had said  that we cannot discuss here I would have raised a point of order from the very beginning and during the discussions. If you say that some Article will be applicable to some, and that Article so and so will not be applicable to some, then I would like to say that from now on, we shall be having a ruling from the Chair.

Shri S. D. Khongwir :Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  i move that we adjourn today and continue the discussion tomorrow.


(Adjournment)

Mr. Deputy Speaker :Yes, since time is up, the discussion will continue  tomorrow when the House resumes its sitting. The House stands adjourned till 9 a. m. tomorrow, the 26th June, 1974.

R. T. RYMBAI.

Dated Shillong

Secretary,

The 25th June, 1974.

Meghalaya Legislative Assembly.