Proceedings of the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly assembled at 9-30 A.M. on Monday the 6th June 1977, in the Assembly Chamber, Shillong with the Speaker in the Chair.

Mr. Speaker :- Let us take up Unstarred Question No. 40 any Supplementary ?


UNSTARRED QUESTIONS

( Replies to which were laid on the Table )

Rengku P.W.D. Subdivision

Shri K.M. Roy Marbaniang asked :

40. Will the Minister-in-charge of P.W.D. be pleased to state when will the Rengku P.W.D. Subdivision be shifted from Mawsynram to the area within the jurisdiction of the Subdivision ?

Shri E. Bareh [Minister-in-charge of P.W.D. (R & B)] replied :

40. - The matter is under the consideration of the Government.

Shri P. Ripple Kyndiah :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, how long is the matter under consideration of the Government ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister P.W.D.) :- It depends on the finalisation of selection of site.

Shri. P. Ripple Kyndiah :- My question is how long this matter has been under consideration of the Government?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, P.W.D.) :- For quite some time.

Shri P. Ripple Kyndiah :- The answer is very vague Mr. Speaker, Sir, Can we have the answer in a clear way ?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, P.W.D.) :- That is also clear when I said for quite some time.

Shri W. Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, is this word 'some time' for one week or for one month ?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, P.W.D.) :- It is quite for sometime now.

Shri S.P. Swer :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, when was this Rengku P.W.D. Sub-division created ?

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, P.W.D.) :- I want notice for that question. 

Mr. Speaker :- No. 41. 

The IAS Officers serving in the State.

Shri P.R. Kyndiah asked :- 

41. Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state the names of the I.A.S. officers serving in the State indicating their seniority and the year in which they joined the I.A.S. ?

Capt. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

41. - A statement showing the names of I.A.S. officers serving in the State indicating their seniority and year of appointment to the I.A.S. is placed on the Table of the House.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the list on the Table when will serial No.1 be due for retirement?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- He was due for retirement by the end of the last month. That is by the end of May.

Shri H. Hadem :- How long will his term be extended ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- For another three months.

Prof Alexander Warjri :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may we know how many are tribal officers ?

Mr. Speaker :- It is laid on of the Table. Actually all members should have come earlier to the House to consult all the papers laid down on the table.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- I have one more question to ask. According to the list of officers we find that the officers were allotted in the same year and this appointments have been according to priority and the non-tribal officers are placed on the top of tribal officers. How is it so ? May we know the reason ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I cannot follow him.

Mr. Speaker :- He said why are the names of tribal officers put below the non-tribal officers in order of seniority though they belong to the same cadre ? 

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- It will not effect their seniority. It is put according to the year of allotment.

Shri H. Hadem :- It is not clear.

Mr. Speaker :- I think we can pass on.

Prof M.N. Majaw :- Whether the list placed on the table of the House is in order of seniority ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- It is according to the year of allotment.

Mr. Speaker :- You see Prof. Majaw the seniority of I.A.S. officers is based on the civil list of their cadre.

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether the number of I.A.S. Officers is in the State is made as per the ratio allotted by the Central Government ?

Mr. Speaker :- His question is whether those officers whom Meghalaya Government are employing now are in accordance with the ratio fixed by the Central Government ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- The total strength of I.A.S. officers in the joint cadre of Assam and Meghalaya is 170. As against this we have at present 120. Out of these, 68 are with Assam and 27 are with us and 18 are on deputation to Central Government.

Prof Alexander Warjri :- May I know how long this Joint Cadre system will last ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- At present there is not proposal we will do away with the Joint Cadre system.

Shri Jormanik Syiem :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I know who is the person responsible for allotment of I.A.S. Officers-I mean who is the authority ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is the joint cadre authority and the requirement of officers is made on the basis of their decision. We requisition I.A.S. officers as a result of their decision.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, what is the percentage of tribal officers allotted to this State as per rules of the Government of India or in-other words, how many, from this joint cadre, tribal officers were employed in this State as per rules of the Government of India ?

Prof M.M. Majaw :- Whether this 50 percent shared between the Government of Assam and Government of Meghalaya ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- The allotment of this joint cadre is out of the total strength. Suppose the total strength is 170 out of this 50 per cent should be outsiders and 50 percent insiders.

Mr. Speaker :- You mean 50 percent must be people from Meghalaya and Assam and 50 percent from outside these two States ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- That it correct Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Shri G. Mylliemngap :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, are there any I.A.S. officers in Meghalaya who did not belong to this Joint Cadre?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Yes, there are some who are on deputation from other States.

Mr. Speaker :- Now No. 42.

Chief Automobile Engineer

Shri R. Lyngdoh asked :

42.

Will the Minister-in-charge of Transport be pleased to state -

(a)

Whether it is a fact that the Meghalaya Transport Corporation does no longer need the services of a Chief Automobile Engineer ?

 

(b)

Whether it is a fact that the last Chief Automobile Engineer was requisitioned by Meghalaya from the State of Nagaland?

 

Capt. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister-in-charge of Transport) replied :

42.(a)

- It is not a fact

(b)

- Yes.

Shri W. Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may we know whether the Meghalaya State Transport Corporation has got a Chief Automobile Engineer at present ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- No, not yet.

Shri Jormanik Syiem :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, No. 42. (b) whether the officer is still here in Shillong ? - I mean the one who had been requisitioned from Nagaland.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I do not know whether he is still in Shillong or not, but his services were requisitioned from the Government of Nagaland.

Shri Jormanik Syiem :- The question is whether he is still in Meghalaya ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- His services were requisitioned by the State Transport Corporation undertaking. In the first meeting of the Corporation, it was thought that it will not be desirable for them to appoint him as the Chief Automobile Engineer. However, I would like to inform the House that this case is being reconsidered.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, what is the designation of IAS Automobile Engineer ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- At present we do not have.

Mr. Speaker :- No. 43.

Accommodation in the Meghalaya Houses at Calcutta and New Delhi

Shri H.E. Pohshna asked :

43.

Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state -

(a)

Whether it is a fact that the notification regarding eligibility of accommodation in the Meghalaya Houses in Calcutta/New Delhi has been published in the official gazette ?

 

(b)

If so, when ?

(c)

Whether the said notification has been implemented ?

(d)

Whether it is a fact that part of the Meghalaya House at Calcutta has been used at residential quarter by some Officers ?

 

(e)

If so, who are those Officers and under what terms and conditions have they been allowed residential accommodation ?

 

Capt. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

43.(a)

The Rules for occupation of the Meghalaya Houses were issued in the form of an office order vide Order No. G.A. 152/74/86, dated 25th March, 1976 and were not published in the official gazette.

 

(b)

Does not arise.

(c)

The rules for occupation of Meghalaya Houses in Calcutta and New Delhi issued on 25th March 1976 are being followed.

 

(d)

Yes.

(e)

(i) Shri M.N. Kar Trade Adviser and Director of Movements, Calcutta.

(ii) Shri S. Bhattacharjee, Sectional officer, P.W.D.

Rent free accommodation. Terms and conditions are being examined.

Shri H. Hadem :- 43 (a), whether these new rules include the list of priority also ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Yes, Sir the rules have been recently revised.

Shri H. Hadem :- May we understand that the rule issued on 25th March, 1976 has been amended ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- It has been revised, as I said, on the 27th of May.

Kongthong Water Supply Scheme

Shri S.P. Swer asked :

44.

Will the Minister in-charge of Health be pleased to state -

(a)

The estimate for repairing the Kongthong Water Supply Scheme ?

(b)

The amount sanctioned ?

Shri S.K. Marak (Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering) replied :

44. (a) and (b) - Rs.8,800 was the estimate for repairing the Kongthong Water Supply Scheme during 1974-75 and had been sanctioned

Sohrarim Water Supply Scheme

Shri S.P. Swer asked :

45.

Will the Minister in-charge of Health be pleased to state -

(a)

The name of the water source for the Sohrarim Water Supply Scheme ?

(b)

The amount sanctioned for the survey of the scheme ?

(c)

Whether estimate for survey will be prepared ?

(d)

If so, when ?

(e) 

If not, the reasons therefor ?

Shri S.K. Marak (Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering) replied :

45.(a)

"Wah Umiong".

(b)

- Rs.1,220 (Rupees one thousand two hundred and twenty) only.

(c)

- It had already been prepared.

(d)

- 30th June, 1975.

(e)

- Does not arise.

Shri H. Hadem :- (c). Has the survey work been completed ?

Shri S.K. Marak (Minister-in-charge of P.H.E.) :- Yes, survey work will started as early as possible provided we get the funds.

Shri Dlosing Lyngdoh :- (c) When will the work be started ?

Shri S.K. Marak (Minister-in-charge of P.H.E.) :-Yes, survey work will be started as early as possible provided we get the funds.

Government Vehicles at Meghalaya House, Calcutta

Shri Samarendra Sangma asked :

46.

Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state -

(a)

The number of Vehicles kept by the Meghalaya Government at Meghalaya House, Calcutta ?

(b)

For what purpose the Vehicles are being kept there ?

(c)

Whether there is any rules for the use and maintenance of the said Vehicles ?

(d)

The expenditure so far incurred in respect of the Vehicles at Meghalaya House, Calcutta (year-wise) ?

Capt. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

46.(a)

- 1 (one)

(b)

- The Vehicle is meant for use of Ministers/Officers on tour to Calcutta.

(c)

- Yes.

(d) 1974-75 1975-76 1976-77
Rs. Rs. Rs.

Cost of Chair

...

25,725.00 Nil  Nil

P.O.L.

...

6,093.62 11,303.88 12,163.22

Repair/Purchase of

..

1,502.00 3,566.64 2,531.19

Shri W. Syiemiong :- (b), Whether the peoples' representatives like M.L.As. are also entitled to the use of the car?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Yes Sir, on payment of 70 paise per kilometer on condition that such use does not interfere with official duties.

Shri P.R. Kyndiah :- Whether the Members of the District Council are also entitled to use the car ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :-At present only M.Ps and M.L.As from Meghalaya.

Prof M.N. Majaw :- Is it a fact that even written requests for the use of this car were turned down by the Trade Adviser ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I have no information, Sir.

Shri P.R. Kyndiah :- What categories are entitled for the use of the vehicles ?

Mr. Speaker :- Before the Chief Minister replies, let me point out that the Speaker and Deputy Speaker of the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly are also entitled to use the car.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- They are. Sir. Ministers, Speaker, Deputy Speaker, Minister of States and also Government officials on duty.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- Whether the Trade Adviser also used the vehicle but not when he is on duty ?

Prof M.N. Majaw :- Whether the Government is aware that the Trade Adviser may not be using the car for official purpose, but for going to Salt Lake ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- The Government is not aware.

Shri H. Hadem :- Whether the M.L.As on duty during their study tours are also entitled to use the car ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I have said Sir, that M.Ps and M.L.As are entitled to use the car on payment of 70 paise per kilometer.

Shri. H. Hadem :- Whether the same charge is to be paid by other officials of the Government ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Yes, if they use the car for personnel purpose.

Shri H. Hadem :- My question .... ... .. .....

Shri E. Bareh (Minister of Agriculture) :- He has crossed three.

Shri H. Hadem :- This is the third one.

Mr. Speaker :- Minister, Speaker, Deputy Speaker are governed by their Salaries and Allowances Act.

Shri Jormanik Syiem :- Whether the M.L.As can use the car when they are on duty in Calcutta or Delhi.

Mr. Speaker :- I think the M.L.As' Salaries and Allowance Act does not permit them and even Ministers, Speaker and Deputy Speaker have the option either to draw treble D.A. or use the Government vehicle while on duty.

Site for the New Administer Unit at Sohra

Shri S.P. Swer asked :

47.

Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state -

(a)

Whether the site for the New Administrative Unit at Sohra has been selected ?

(b) 

If not, the steps so far taken by the Government to select the cite for Administrative Unit ?

(c)

Whether land for construction of Administrative buildings of the New Administrative Unit at Sohra has been made made available to the Public Works Department ?

 

(d)

If not, when do Government propose to take up land acquisition ?

(e)

The time-schedule for completion of the administrative buildings for the Administrative Unit at Sohra ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

47.

(a) & (b) Since Government have taken a decision that the Administrative Officer of Sohra Administrative Unit will function by using part of the Block Office building, the question of site selection and construction separate office building for the Administrative Unit does not arise at present.

 

(c), (d) & (e) Do not arise in view of replies to (a) and (b) above.

Shri P.R. Kyndiah :- Whether the Government is aware that there is great inconvenience for using the office of the new Administrative Unit in the Block office ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- That is done under the recommendation of the Committee that it should function in the Block office and the cabinet has approved it. But regarding the inconvenience the matter will be examined.

Mr. Speaker :- Let us pass on to the next item.

        Last Saturday, Grant No.13 was moved and the cut motion was also moved and the Chief Minister had raised a point of order. Now, I think the hon. Member concerned who was moved the cut motion has also his own submission to make before I give my ruling.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Sir, this motion is governed by Rule 145 (1) (a) which says that the amount of the demand be reduced to Re.1 representing disapproval of the policy underlying the demand. Such a motion shall be known as "Disapproval of the policy Cut". A member giving notice of such a motion shall indicate in precise terms the particulars of the policy which he proposes to discuss. The discussion shall be confined to the specific point or points mentioned in the notice and it shall be open to members to advocate an alternative policy.

        But here in the cut motion, it is stated to raise a general discussion on the working of the Secretariat Administration Department and not to suggest an alternative policy. So this has been done under Rule 145 (1) (c); That is why it is out of order.

Shri P.R. Kyndiah :- My point in moving this cut-motion is to raise a general discussion on the working of the Secretariat Administration Department. But in doing that, my intention is to discuss the working policy of the Secretariat, Administration Department. Now, Sir, even in the past I have some of these cut motions similar to this one. Which have been allowed. Now I refer to the cut-motion under Grant No.15 which raised in the Budget Session 1974 when the cut-motion on this Grant was moved by Mr. Rowell Lyngdoh, Mr. Winstone Syiemiong and Mr. F.K. Mawlot and this is the disapproval of the policy cut- motion to raise general discussion on the functioning of the Department and it was allowed. Again, in the same Budget Session of 1974 under Grant No. 49 there was a cut-motion by Shri D.N. Joshi to discuss the functioning of the Government in the concerned departments. This also was allowed. There is no technical question on this point. Therefore, I would submit that since we are raising a discussion the working policy of the Secretariat Administration Department, I would request you to allow the cut-motion.

Mr. Speaker :- I think I have listened to the points raised by both sides of the House and I think there are some valid points from both side. The point of order raised by the Chief Minister is in relation to the rules, but the clarification made by Mr. Kyndiah is based on past practices in this House.

        But may I remind the House that practices, usages and conventions in any legislature grow and there may be some mistakes in the past perhaps some of the things were decided, were allowed through over sight when there was no point of order, it comes just like that. Here also I am facing the difficult and the difficulty is that the point of order was raised at the time when the Cut Motion had already been moved.

Chief Minister :- There is confusion.

Mr. Speaker :- It is not the confusion and in fact it is the form of these Cut Motion which is really not in order. But since it has already been moved. I think I would request the House to understand that as far a practicable let us try to avoid this kind of confusion. May I ask the consent of the House that the Cut Motion moved by Mr. Kyndiah stands withdrawn and after that I will decide to the case because it has becomes the property of the House. First it will have to be withdrawn and than only I can decide on the admissibility of motion. Do I have the leave of the House that the Cut Motion moved by Mr. Kyndiah stands withdrawn on the point of order.

( Voice - yes )

        Now as the Cut Motion has been withdrawn I will give three alternatives, to this matter - if the House agrees the Cut Motion may be converted into a token cut.

Chief Minister :- Unless the Cut Motion is clear, its indication of that particular policy or policies it is not possible for the Minister and the Department concerned to come prepared for it. It leads to misleading of that issue. I would request .......... (interruption ).  

Mr. Speaker :- I understand that.

Chief Minister :- Unless during the Cut Motion a clear indication if made in regard to the points raised, how is it possible for the Department to come prepared for it.

Mr. Speaker :- That is why I said the rules is clear. This Cut Motion does not in any way come under the policy cut and unless and until the points are specific we can never expect the Government to give satisfactory answers and that is why there are rules and that the matter may be very important perhaps to discuss about the working of the Government, yet the form it which it has come it is not within the purview of the policy cut and I hope the Member concerned also understand that perhaps in the rush of the business things are perhaps through oversight the Chief Minister did not raise the point at the proper time and yet after it has been moved the Chief Minister had raised the Objection and in the light of our own rules and procedure the Cut motion is out of order.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Thank you.

Prof A. Warjri :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, for our future guidance about the proper time, may we kindly know the proper time for the Government to object against the cut motion.

Mr. Speaker :- That is why I said the proper time to raise the point of order is at the nick of time before the cut motion is moved. But here it has been moved, and that is why it has become the property of the House. I have to take my own responsibility to decide and I found that it is out of order.


VOTING ON DEMANDS FOR GRANTS

Shri H. Hadem :- May I seek one clarification when the cut motion has been allowed to be withdrawn by the House is there any more point to be decided ?

Mr. Speaker :- They are outside the purview of the cut Motion. I am only giving instructions perhaps to members that in future the procedure should be like that. Now let me put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.53,15,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March 1978, for the administration of the head "252-Secretariat - General - Services - I - Civil Departments".

( The Motion is carried and the demand is passed )

Now, Minister-in-charge of P.W.D. to move Grant No. 14

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, P.W.D.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.7,38,000 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come the course of payment during the year ending the the 31st March 1978 for the administration of the head "252 - Secretariat - General Services - II - Public Works Department".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. Since there is no cut motion I put the question before the House that an amount of Rs.7,38,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1978 for the administration of the head "252-Secreatriat - General Services - II - Public Works Department".

( The Motion was carried and the demand is passed )

        Now the Chief Minister to move Grant No. 15.

Capt. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor I beg to move that an amount of Rs.36,14,000 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1978 for the administration of the head "253- District Administration".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved and I have received two cut motions (1) to be moved by Mr. Rowell Lyngdoh and (2) to be moved by Mr. W. Syiemiong.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Re.36,14,000 under Grant No.15 major head "253 - District Administration at page 77 of the budget be reduced to Rupee 1. That is the amount of the whole grant of Rs.36,14,000 do stand reduced to Rupee 1. Mr. Speaker, Motion moved and now you can initiate discussion on the Government policy on the administration of Districts Subdivisions and Administrative Units. 

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, while moving this Cut Motion I would like first of all point out from the Budget estimate of expenditure at Volume 2.

Mr. Speaker :- Before Mr. Rowell Lyngdoh initiate the discussion, it appears that the spirit of the Cut Motion No.2 is the same as Cut Motion No.1.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I find under this grant, in the District Administration under Sub-head (a) Commissioner (b) District Establishments under the administration of Sub-divisions Salaries of the staff for the two Sun-divisions an amount of Rs.3,56,900, whereas the other office expenditure amounted to Rs.1,22,000.

Shri W.A. Sangma, (Chief Minister) :- On a point of clarification, Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is not related to any policy.

Mr. Speaker :- He will come to that.

( Voices - he is initiating )

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to point out something on the preparation of the B u d g e t it appears that the policy of the Government is to provide a lump sum amount without any detail. So it is your policy that you have brought this grant without details. So, Sir, I found that we are just given Rs.1.22 lakhs only for office expenditure. It is more or less half of the total pay and allowances of the staff. So, it is too much to give this amount only for office expenses, only for purchasing office stationery and this much amount, is given without any detail. How can the House take this Budget without any detail. It is as if we have been given a blank cheque to the Department to spend what ever they like. Sir, we have seen also under this head "(B) Process Serving establishment". Here also it amounts to Rs.2.86 lakhs. So, Sir, I do not understand whether this process serving is so much important as to have so much amount to be more or equal to the whole establishment of the subdivision. I would like the Government to see if this is really required.  

        Then, Sir, I come to the last point and that is the administrative unit under the same sub-head and that is "Other Establishments." Here, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the last few years the Government have established as many as 6 administrative units in the State and these administrative units are just quite new in this State and I think in other States of the Country also. It is more or less an extra consumers provision. Of course it is not an extra consumer. It is an extra practice where as other States of the country we have got only District/Sub division and also the panchayat system. That is the system they have got in other States. But here since we do not require the panchayat system since they are not applicable to our State, we consider it unnecessary and with the establishment of these administrative units we think the panchayat do not help anything to the people as a whole. In fact the idea of dividing the State into certain administrative are as is to bring the people nearer to the administration or rather to bring the administration nearer to the people. But as it is now, we have found that they are rather further from the people or rather the people are further from the administration. Take for example, the administrative unit at Cherrapunjee. Some of that elakas of the Dwara Nongtyrnem, I do not know whether they have been included in the Cherrapunjee administrative unit or not. But those people are grumbling and they have expressed their difficulties that by bringing the administrative unit at Cherrapunjee, there are people who are rather further away as they have no direct road. Naturally they have to come through Shillong Subdivision before going to Cherrapunjee because they have to come from Mawsynram and Mawphlang and then go to Shillong Subdivision and to Cherrapunjee. Therefore it has rather put the people further from the administration.

        Similarly, there are so many instances where this sort of administration does not serve the people as they are expected to solve the problem. Moreover, Sir, these administrative units have no power to solve any administrative problems of the people under their jurisdiction even. If a subdivision is created, of course it is more or less like a district itself where a treasury also will be there, a court also will be there and in every aspect of administration it can cater to the need of the people so that the people who go to the subdivision can find that their problems are solved except a few which should be solved by the district. But these administrative units do not have power to perform their duties. But these administrative units do not have power to perform their duties. They cannot establish treasury and other subdivisional offices. Therefore, it outs the people into greater difficulties and if any case is brought to the subdivision or administrative unit they have to go to the administrative unit through the subdivision. So, it only causes duplication everywhere since they are administrative officer. These administrative officers have no power as per Government order. The duties and functions which have been given to them do not serve the people under that subdivision. Therefore it is a very extra practice since it is not in practice any where and it is very inconvenient to the people. So what I would like to proposes is that these administrative units should be upgraded to a subdivision so that they can function normally like in other States. A subdivision of course is a regular thing which we have been having during the time of the Assam Government. Therefore, I would suggest that since these administrative units are very inconvenient to the people, there is no necessity for the Government to upgrade them in a Sub-division and from now on, there should not be any administrative units. If they find that there is any place which requires to have some separate administration or if there is any place or area where the people want to have some sort of administration, then straight away a Subdivision should be opened if it is justified in the consideration of the Government. To have this administrative unit I find it is really a problem to the people as well as to the officers to function. As it is now, Mr. Speaker, Sir, they have given to the Block Development Officers and in the administrative units the same officers are to be in-charge of the block office as well as the administrative unit. I find what the officer has done is that he only used the money which has been provided to the administrative unit but not the benefit of the people of that administrative unit. The money sanctioned for the administrative unit is just expended for the block. Wherever he goes he used the vehicle and staff of the block and hence, nobody knows him as the administrative unit officer but as the Block Development Officer. Nobody knows what power he has got. It is also too far for the people to approach the office of the administrative unit. They have not been able to establish the office in a proper manner. Therefore, for the administrative unit, the Block Development Officer is performing his duties through the block agency, as there is no separate staff, there is no vehicle and there is nothing in the administrative unit head-quarters. Sometimes, the staff of the block cannot perform their duty properly as they have been used for the affairs of the administrative unit also. There is no extra allowance for those staff who have been used for the administrative unit. I do not know whether they have been given now. Therefore, I would suggest that right now the Government should realise these things and upgrade those administrative units to the Subdivision and from now on to do away with these administrative units. With these few words, I move my cut motion.

*Shri Winstone Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I fully endorse the views expressed by my friend from Mawkyrwat. Indeed, it is very exasperating and very confusing to find the way and the manner of working of these administrative units in the interior. I will not dwell on this point because my friend has already done that but I would rather like to make a few observations on how the district headquarters are functioning. As a matter of fact, we need not go to the interior but right here, in the district headquarters of the district, that is Shillong it is very confusing indeed. For anyone to go there to do something with the officer and the first thing that he is confronted with a smiling to the people who go there. if you will ask one thing, they will direct to another table and about half an hour you will have to spend simply going from one table to another like a merry go round. Indeed for the people coming from the rural areas, it is really a very sad state of affairs because they do not understand anything about the technicality of the procedure of running the administration. Anyway, Sir, I feel like blaming those people of their impoliteness. But as a matter of fact, if we go a little deeper, we cannot so much blame them because these are other reasons also. We know fully well that the district administration is very important in so far as it is nearer to the people, but it is the nearest administration that affects the people. As such, we should give much importance to it. But what happens Sir, we sometimes, blame the officials and staff and they could not do anything. But the staff and officials are also working under great handicaps. For example, here in the District office of Khasi Hills Shillong, the building of the office is so imposing and so old and it is a very dilapidated building. It has been constructed for more than a century ago. We thought that here at least we can see a very imposing building itself has reflected the mode of working of the staff and officials there. Our people do not understand how the staff are working. They are already over-burdened with the work. I would request the Minister to go with me and visit the office himself. They are drawing the lowest pay and besides being over-burdened, they are getting the lowest pay as compared to what the staff and officers in the Directorate and Secretariat level are getting. What can you expect out of this condition ? They are over-burdened with so much work and naturally they become blunt and unless they are paid better nothing could be done. Unless they grease their palms nothing could be expected of them. Unless these things are rectified, I am afraid, the administration in the district as reflected in that particular office of the D.C. here, things will go from bad to worse. We do not know that many of the staff working there have been in the same capacity for years together. Some of them have been remaining in the same capacity for more than 15 or 16 years without promotion. Can we expect anything from them ? They have got no promotion and so their future is so bleak. Sir, I would suggest to the Government kindly to see that if it is really keen and serious to improve the administration of the district, something must be done to improve the condition of the building there, to reconstruct or repair this building as it is at present in Khasi Hills in Shillong so that we can expect something better from this district administration.

*Shri S.P. Swer :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in supporting the cut motion I would also like to raise some points. We are all aware that in the policy of the Government and, especially, in a democratic Government the most important thing is to bring the administration nearer to the people. To achieve this objective in view, the civil sub-divisions and the administrative units were created. When an administrative unit is created and located somewhere in an area specified for that administrative unit, it is expected that the Government should provide facilities for the convenience of the people of that area. But it is found that, in such an administrative unit, the Extra Assistant Commissioner, who is in-charge, has only one clerk and one people. Then, even for a small thing the people have still to go to the District Headquarters. For instance, a poor cultivator from that area wants a gun to protect his crops and he has to apply for a licence in a proper form. But that form can not be obtained from the office of the administrative unit; he has to go all the way to the District Headquarter for one form which is expected that the administrative unit can attend to people's need like this.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- What form Sir ? I could not follow.

Mr. Speaker :- The form for applying for a gun license.

Shri S.P. Swer :- In the matter of civil supplies like rice, sugar and other other essential commodities, the whole-seller's shop and also the godown of the F.C.I. are already in the Sohra Administrative Unit. But for endorsement of quota in permits for rice or sugar they have to go to Shillong and then come back for lifting their quota. In this connection, Sir, if the administrative unit cannot estimate this small difficulty of the people, then I find that the setting up of administrative units does not meet the people's aspiration of Sohra Administrative Unit. Then there are some other common needs of the people like non-judicial stamps, court-fee stamps and other small things for which a service cell could have been created in administrative unit for the convenience of the people. But if these facilities could not be provided in an administrative units then I would like to support the views expressed by the hon. mover of the cut motion to upgrade all these administrative units to civil sub-divisions. 

Mr. Speaker :- Mr. Jormanik Syiem.

Shri Jormanik Syiem :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would also like to support the cut motion tabled by the hon. member from Mawkyrwat. The term 'District Administrative" is a very wide term; I think it covers many subjects relating to he district administration. But I will mention only a few of them which need looking into by the Government. In the first place, I would like to repeat that the policy of combining the executive and the judiciary is not in a very happy state of affairs. It is embarrassing to the executive officers and also a hardship to the public. As we all know, in administrative and executive matters each officer has a large file work and, at the same time, he is also entrusted with trial of cases also. So they cannot be expected to do them at the same time because situation demands that they should take up both of them. So we find that on many occasions, although cases have been posted for a particular day, the cases have to be adjourned again and again because the Magistrate concerned is not free, and that affects the litigant public who have had to come from a very long distance. We had on several occasions mentioned this, even in this Session, and the Government is not giving a very direct reply as to whether they are going to take up separation of the executive from the judicial functions of these officers. The Government have taken too long in getting this policy implemented although it is the intention of the Governments of all States including the Centre that these functions should be separated. Therefore, this onerous process should be avoided.

        In particular, I am one with the hon. member from Nongspung when he mentioned about the condition of the court buildings in Shillong which were there before we were born. It is shame to the capital of the State that the District Office and Courts are in such a condition. I had several occasions in the past mentioned this in this August House and I have also had occasions to point out to the Government regarding the bad condition of the buildings. But what they have done is just shifting the court of the District and Sessions Judge to another building at the top. But then we find the congestion down below to be still the same. The hon. member from Nongspung has stated that whenever we go there we find that the members of the staff do not know what to do and some of the files could not be found.

        Of course, last year some congestion has been removed and now the buildings are a little bit improved. It is a shame to the hon. Members and the Government that people coming from outside to see the condition of the district offices of the Deputy Commissioner and of the District and Session Judge. It is time that Government makes up its mind to renovate and to build a new court building in the capital of the State. Also members of the Bar particularly expressed their disappointment that the Government is very indifferent to the members of the Bar. If one goes to the Bar Library one can see how the members of the Bar are sitting there. There is no place to write and no place to work and they are just gossiping, It is a pity that the Shillong Bar is getting such a poor accommodation. There was a promise that the building used by the Assam Public Service Commission could be made available to the Bar Association but I do not understand why the Assam Public Service Commission still continue to function in that building. Of course, if our Government is so kind and allows them to continue there they will never move from this building and enjoy the fine site and salubrious climate of Shillong, but, yes, it will be good that we can accommodate. But now when we have got our own need and whenever a pressure from the Bar and the members of the Bar always represent before the District Authorities I believe the District Authorities also must have brought this to the notice of the Government. Up till now we have not seen any move in the matter and so we are still there as we were from the 19th century.

        Now, Sir, coming to the administrative units which the hon. Member from Sohra has spoken and other members also, I think we have taken up too rapid steps to introduce these units and subdivisions before we are really prepared. As we can hear now from the hon. Member of Sohra that these administrative units have not really been beneficial enough to the people for whom these have been started in as much as that the people still have to come all the way from Cherra or from Dwara Nongtyrnem to get forms from Shillong. What is the benefit of introducing the administrative units but since we have already started we should also be prepared to give them the necessary equipments or upgrade them to subdivision or it is a sheer mockery to have administrative units which cannot function. So I would appeal to the Government through you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that these things should not be left where they are. A few subjects that we have mentioned need to be looked into. Of course separation of powers may take some time. If the Government is alert it may do something in that line to relieve the litigant public from the hardship and also to save the officers from harassment of the Bar Library which the members of the Shillong Bar are agitating year in and year out and also immediate consideration by the Government asking the Assam Public Service Commission to shift to their own place because we need this particular building. With these few words I support the cut motion.

*Shri Y. Fuller Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in supporting the cut motion moved by my hon. friend from Mawkyrwat I wish to say a word on the policy of the Government on the administration of District and the Subdivisions through the administrative units here in our State. Sir, the creation of the administrative units and Subdivisions is mainly done in order to bring the administration nearer to the people and also to develop those areas which are still under developed. Sir, I have seen that in the selection of the site for the offices of the administrative set up as in the case of Nongstoin all the offices have been localised and taken to a certain place. This Sir, in my opinion has made the people of the existing villages to flock nearer to that to that place where a site for the subdivision has been selected. So if this is the case it does not at all help to develop the existing villages. So Sir, I would suggest to Government that for those subdivisions for which the sites for construction of the buildings for the offices have not yet been done, this practice should not be followed and as far as practicable the offices should not be localised so that it will help the existing villages or town, to develop and the people should not flock nearer to that selected site.

Mr. Speaker :- Sir I do not understand your point. I think the localisation of Government offices is useful which will be easier for the staff and offices to perform their duties. 

        Supposing one office is located somewhere else in Markasa and Sub-divisional Office is somewhere in Mairang, how can the people from Markasa deposit their treasury challan ?

Shri Fuller Lyngdoh :- What I mean is that if all offices are located in Mairang, as in the case at present in case of Block Development Offices, all people will flock to one place only nearer to the office. So my opinion it is better if the office is not located in one place, if possible. Some offices should be located on the northern part of the village so that the existing village will expand on every side and it will not make people gather somewhere. As you know, in case of Nongstoin, the District Headquarters is located at Nongbah and as much people from Nongstoin, Mawkyrwat and others are flocking to Nongbah only. So it has not only made the place congested but also blocked its development. So this is my only point, Sir.

Shri D.N. Joshi :- While opposing the cut motion of the hon. Member, I have some suggestions to make. It is indeed heartening to note that the Government rightly set up administrative units in order to bring the administration nearer to the people of the State and steps are being taken for creation full fledged District Headquarter at Nongstoin. But even after quite a long time elapsed since its creation uptil now establishment of a Treasury has not yet seen the light of the day. In a District Headquarter ....... 

Mr. Speaker :- I think Mr. Joshi should participate in some other grant.

Shri D.N. Joshi :- It pertains to administrative units, Sir.

Mr. Speaker :- As it is pertaining to administrative units, I would advise you to participate in the next Grant.

Shri D.N. Joshi :- As advised by you, I would not participate now, Sir.

Mr. Speaker :- Chief Minister to reply.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have listened to the points raised by the hon. Member who brought this cut motion and also the other members who participated. As in the cut motion itself, it has been indicated to discuss the Government policy in the administration of District, Subdivision and Administration Units, I thought certain policy followed by the Government in the administration at the District level, Subdivisional level and administrative Unit level would be, discussed. But it appears to me that they have discussed not policy matters instead they have discussed about certain defects in running the administration. The only element which relates to the policy was the one which was pointed out by the mover of the cut motion when he stated that the setting up of the administrative unit was something quite new. He termed it as extra practice, ; of course, I do not know what does he mean by extra practice. But I think he wanted to say that there was no need for the Administrative Units. Well Mr. Speaker, Sir, this matter has been discussed in the House through questions and through debates on the Governor's Address and also in the general discussion on the Budget. There was no concrete suggestion as such that the Administrative Unit should be done away with. It has suggested that by disapproving the Administrative Unit such Administrative Unit should be upgraded to the Subdivision to have more effective administration. Well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the policy of the Government is to upgrade these Administrative Units to Civil Sub-divisions through the phased programme. It is not possible to have all the Administrative Units upgraded at a time because of various reasons, I agree Sir, at the initial stage these Administrative Units have some difficulties, firstly accommodation and secondly in discharging their administrative duties. For various other difficulties this is not possible. But, the Government will try to improve the functioning of these Administrative Units. It has been argued that there is no need for such Administrative Units because the function of the administrative officer and that of B.D.O. have been amalgamated. Well, from the point of view of economy Mr. Speaker, Sir, we thought it would be good if a senior officer from the Meghalaya Civil Service cadre can be put in charge of the administration who will also function as B.D.O. As you very well know, Sir, at present we do not have separate forum for the Blocks. Block Agencies used to take up developmental programme and the development of the Blocks. We do not have separate agency as was in the past. Therefore, it will not be correct to say that the administrative officer should not function as B.D.O. Sir, it has also been alleged that these administrative officers are using all departmental staff without any extra allowance for the very reason that these officers are also functioning as Block Development officers and there is no need that their staff working in the Block should get extra allowance. At present these officers are provided with one U.D. Assistant two L.D.A. Assistants and one peon in addition to the Block staff. Mr. Speaker, Sir, mention has been made about the court building in Shillong. This matter has come up for discussion a number of times and Government is quite aware of the need for renovation and even for construction of a building. But Sir, due to paucity of fund, we have not been able to make any headway in this regard. mention has also been made about the separation of judiciary from the executive by the same hon. Member time and again in this august House. My colleague, the Minister of Law has given the reply that some rules have been framed and once that is done, the Government will take the earliest opportunity to see that these schemes are implemented. But in the meantime it may be possible for the Government to have some alternative arrangements. The executive may not be burdened with the trial of cases and this also has to be examined. Sir, about the accommodation of the Shillong Bar it was also mentioned that the big building of the Assam Public Service Commission may be made available for the Shillong Bar. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the examination hall of the Assam Public Service Commission has been ear-marked for the Bar Library and old Public Service Commission house for the accommodation of the office of the District Session Judge, Shillong Court, Sub Judiciary and Magistrates and we are trying to see that the congestion is removed, but of course, it will take time to meet the requirements completely.

Shri Jormanik Syiem :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to know whether the matter has been taken up with the Government of Assam to remove the Assam Public Service Commission ?    

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the very reply it is clear that it is in the process. Well, Sir, as I have already said that there is not much discussion on the policy matter and a number of points which have been raised are only for bringing about the improvement in the district administration, subdivisional administration at the level of the administrative units. Sir, the Government is trying its best to justify the establishment of the administrative units in the State. In other words, to see that the people derive benefit out of these administrative units and that they are drawn nearer to the administration. Sir, complaints have been made that even to get the forms from the administrative headquarters, the people had to come to Shillong. Well, it is very unfortunate and I will have it examined by the department concerned. The forms which should be readily available in the particular office are not available and the people have to suffer because of that. If it is really so then it is meaningless to have such administrative units there. So, whatever forms are used in the headquarters of the administrative units, will see that those forms are made available and I will have this matter examined and see that the people's requirements are attended to properly.

( At this stage the Speaker left the Chamber and Deputy Speaker occupied the Chair.)

        Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I have said there is no much point about the policy matter relating to the setting up of the administrative units and sub-divisions. But in the course of the discussion the hon. Members have pointed out about the various defects and in adequacies of action in running the offices of the districts, sub-divisions and administrative units. Sir, all the points raised by the hon. Members will be looked into and the Government will see to what extent the improvement can be brought about. I expect that the ultimate objective of the Government is to upgrade all the administrative units to subdivisions in a phased manner and with these few words I would like to request the hon. Mover to kindly withdraw his cut motion.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we would expect that the upgrading of those administrative units will be done very soon. Sir, since it is the desire of all the people of those areas and as our Chief Minister has also assured us that all the administrative units will be upgraded in a phased manner, I would like to request that first of all the case of Mawkyrwat be taken up by the Government (Laughter).

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- Sir, as the hon. Member belongs to this particular area, that is why he is insisting to take up the Mawkyrwat case first (Laughter)

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with these assurances I withdraw my cut motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his cut motion. (voices : yes, yes,). So the cut motion moved by Shri Rowell Lyngdoh and Shri S.D. Khongwir is with leave of the House withdrawn. The cut motion No.2 which stands in the name of Shri S.P. Swer and Shri Humphrey Nongrum is not going to be moved. Therefore the cut motion is deemed to have been withdrawn. Now let me put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.36,14,000 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1978 for the administration of the head "253-District Administration" 

( The motion was carried and the demand was passed ).

        Now Grant No. 16 to be moved by the Chief Minister.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.15,00,000 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1978 for the administration of the head "254-Treassury and Accounts Administration".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received one cut motion which stands in the name of Shri G. Mylliemngap and Shri Jormanik Syiem. Now any one of you may move the cut motion.

Shri G. Mylliemngap :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.15,00,000 under Grant No.16 Major Head "254-Treassury and Accounts Administration', at page, 84-87 of the Budget be reduced by Rs.100 i.e., the amount of the whole grant of Rs.15,00,000 do stand reduced by Rs.100.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Motion moved. Now you can initiate the discussion.

Shri G. Mylliemngap :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, just a few minutes ago, we have had a discussion on the District administration minutes ago, we have heard the assurance from the Chief Minister that the administration of the District is being phased by creating administrative units and phased into subdivisions and to a district. Here Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to bring to the notice of the Government only one specific grievances and that is the need of having Treasury Office in those newly created districts subdivisions and administrative units. I was under the impression, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as has been stated by the Chief Minister, that the creation of administrative units would facilitate the administration of the creation of subdivisions so that at the stage of administrative units, they can make provisions upgrading those administrative units into subdivision and, at this stage, they will be able to make all preparations to meet the requirements of the subdivision. But it is very surprising Sir, that there are districts even after having gone through those two phases - administrative units and subdivision till today they do not have Treasury Offices in their district headquarters. You know, Sir, these are subdivisions which have been created and after having gone through this process in all administrative units and subdivisional headquarters, Treasury Offices have not yet been opened and the absence of the Treasury Offices, as you know has created a lot of inconvenience to the public in general and also to the Government servants in particular. Therefore, I feel, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that the immediate establishment of the Treasury Offices in the district headquarters and subdivisional headquarters and to examine the possibility of having Treasuries. With these few words, Sir, I move the cut motion.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support the cut motion.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also support the cut motion.

Shri D.N. Joshi :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a very healthy suggestion that the opposition side has given to the Government motion. But being a policy cut or a token cut, I oppose the cut motion. But I welcome the suggestion that the branches of the Treasury must be made available to the people who reside in the administrative unit and submission headquarters. The other day I found the some officers concerned with Education Department had to come over to Shillong right from Nongstoin to collect money for their day to day administration and payment to the teachers of the schools. Sir, it entails not only heavy loss of time but money also for the officers and money for the Government. If branches of the treasury are opened in the respective district and subdivisional headquarters  which are newly created, then the Government servant and the public will get much benefit in the matter of drawing their salaries and getting other payments from the treasuries. I would therefore, suggest to the Government that in the matter of opening of treasuries, the matter may be expedited so that the people need not come over to Shillong or go to Tura for collecting their bills and for drawing their money. With these few works, Sir, I oppose the cut motion.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have to opposed the cut motion not in the spirit that the mover has moved, but he and others have very little reason to show the need and urgency of opening of sub-treasuries. The Members who have supported simply rose to say something without being able to substantiate their stand. Sir, I think every-body knows that there is need of treasury offices in every district and subdivisional headquarters, and that there has been objection to the site of headquarters. But in view of the fact that these officers have been started recently and also in view of the strong opposition to their locations, I think it is too early to open these sub-treasuries. With these few words I oppose the cut motion.

Shri H. Hadem :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to oppose the cut motion. In view of what has been stated by the hon. Members just now, it is too premature at this stage to move such a cut motion. According to rule, I think, in the scheme of the Government, all the administrative unit offices, subdivisional officers need to to be upgraded into districts and sub-divisions. But the Government cannot do it at once and I hope the hon. Member would consider himself that had he been in their position, he would not be able to come with Alladin's lamp and so everything on the spur of the moment. With these few words, Sir, I oppose the cut motion.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the mover of the cut motion for giving me this opportunity to give information on the subject referred to. As pointed out by my colleagues from this side, now nobody would deny the need for having Treasuries at the District headquarters and also at the Subdivisional headquarters. But certain claims have got  to be considered for implementing the schemes. Arrangements were being made by the Government to establish the treasuries at Nongstoin and Williamnagar District headquarter. In this connection, the following owing advance action has already been taken by the Government.

    1. Provisions to meet the expenditure in connection with Treasury Establishment at Nongstoin and Williamnagar has already been provided in this years' budget.

    2. Necessary Non-gazetted staff for both the proposed Treasuries have been appointed and attached to the District Treasuries at Shillong and Tura for training.

    3. For the posts of Treasury Officers, recruitment has already been made and after completion of Training the officers will be posted in the respective Treasuries.

    4. Construction of Treasury Strong Room at Williamnagar has already been completed and at Nongstoin the work is being taken.

    5. Negotiations are going on with the State Bank of India to open their branches and also to establish the currency chests and small coins depots at both the District Headquarters for the purpose of conduction Government cash work. Although the State Bank of India have opened their offices at Nongstoin and Williamnagar they have, however, intimated they are not yet in a position to take up Government cash work just now. The Bank authorities informed the Government to await their further advice in the matter.

        The District Treasuries at Nontion and Williamnagar will, therefore be opened as soon as the State Bank of India is in a position to take up Government cash transactions.

        Now with regard to Treasuries at Sub-divisional and Administrative Unit headquarters, we have to, first of all see about the workload and ultimately, when the Government is justified it will be the policy of the Government to see that for the convenience of the public Treasuries are attached to the Sub-divisional headquarters in a phased programme. But at present, I think it will be early to suggest that we must have Treasuries at Sub-divisional and Administrative Unit headquarters. We must examine on this and we have taken steps to establish Treasuries at the newly formed District headquarter at Nongstoin and Williamnagar and we will also examine the possibility of having Treasuries at these Sub-divisional and Administrative Unit Headquarters. So with these assurances, I would request the Mover to kindly withdraw the cut motion and allow the Government to go ahead.

Shri W. Syiemiong :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on a point of clarification, if I am not mistaken, last year the Finance Minister had assured the House that he would start one Treasury Office. May we know what is the progress of that ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- I do not remember that and I cannot reply to that now.

Shri G. Mylliemngap :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am fully convinced by the explanation given by Hon'ble Chief Minister and I withdraw my Cut Motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave the House to withdraw the cut motion ?

        (Voice ....... Yes, yes ......) . The cut motion is with leave of the House withdrawn.

        Now let me put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.15,00,000 be granted to the Minister in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1978 for the administration of the head "254- Treasury and Accounts Administration".

( The Motion was carried, and the demand was passed ).

        Let us come to Grant No.17 to be moved by the Chief Minister.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.3,05,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge of defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1978 for the administration of the head "225- Police and 260- Fire Protection and Control".

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received one cut Motion which stands in the name of Shri S.D. Khongwir.

Prof. A. Warjri :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I request that my Cut Motion No.2 be clubbed with Cut Motion No.1 ?

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to raise a point of order. In this Cut Motion No.2 it is stated that the total provision of Rs.3,05,00,000 under Grant No.17, Major head "225- Police and 260- Fire Protection and Control". at page 88-110 of the Budget be reduced to Re.1 i.e. the amount of the whole grant of Rs.3,05,00,000 do stand reduced to Re.1. Here it relates to the disapproval of the working of the Police Department. It is a general discussion on the working of the Police Department. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, just now, I am raising the point of order and I will explain on this. On this Cut Motion relating to the Police Department the hon. Member has dishonoured his Cut Motion and therefore. I would request you that you declare this Cut Motion to be out of order. Please refer to Rule 145 (1) (a) It is stated like this "that the amount of the demand be reduced to Re.1" representing disapproval of the policy underlying the demand. Such a cut motion shall be known as "Disapprove of Policy". A member giving notice of such a motion shall indicate in precise terms the particulars of the policy which he proposes to discuss. The discussion shall be confined to the specific point or points mentioned in the notice and it shall be opened to members to advocate an alternative policy". Here it is said to raise a general discussion on the policy of the working of the Police Department. Here is a similar case, as such, I would point out that it is out of order. 

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Cut Motion No.2 which was brought in the form of policy cut is not specific and the hon. Mover of the Motion wants to discuss on the working of Police Department. So it appears now to be out of order.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.3,05,00,000, under Grant No.17 Major head "255- Police and 260 - Fire protection and Control, 'at page 88 of the Budget be reduced to Re.1, i.e. the amount at the whole grant of Rs.3,05,00,000 do stand reduced to Re.1.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Motion moved. Now you can raise to general discussion.

* Shri S.D. Khongwir :- Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I moved this cut motion on this particular Grant because of the fact that a couple of weeks ago we, as the headmen of Mawlai, had received a notice from one of the officers of the Police Department, the Police officer inviting us to meet him at a particular time and particular place and as stated in the notice to discuss about public-police relationship. I received this notice Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, at about 5 p.m., but the meeting was fixed at 6 p.m. So I had only hour to think about what I should say in the meeting regarding this important point that is, public-police relationship. But Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when all of us arrived for the meeting in spite of a very short notice the meeting turned out to be otherwise. We never discussed about it, i.e., the public-police relationship. The officer gave us a lecture on something else. So I still remember this incident and that is why it has prompted me or rather to use stronger words, it has prompted me to move this cut motion on this very important subject, the relationship between the police and the public. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is well known that the police had a very bad beginning in India and for that matter in our State of Meghalaya too. Even in the past, during the British regime, the police force was organised to strike fear and terror in the hearts of the people. That is the image of the police and this image is continuing to stay, to remain in India and here in our State also the image of the imperial might strikes fear and terror in the minds of the people and so Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what do we get from this as a wide-spread unpopularity and even hatred for the police force. This Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, I still maintain is still the position in so far as the public is concerned in the relationship with the police, and in Meghalaya : Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, the image is still in a bad side and there is a wide-spread antagonism towards the police especially among the young people and the motories. Instead of the public helping the police we found that the public are always hindering the work of the police because of the feeling of antagonism against the police and more so Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it appears that the public did not respect and also did not trust the policemen. That is why, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the image of the police that we have in our State, I feel, as a responsible member that I should bring a discussion through this cut motion so that it will be made known to the Government and also with the co-operation of all the hon. Members in this House as well as the general public so that in our State we will try to build good relationship between the police and the public which is very very important and essential. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, well the Chief Minister came up with the niceties of the provision of the ruler regarding policy cut or token cut. I was almost confused with my own cut motion and I had the apprehension lest my cut motion will be ruled out of order. But, fortunately, Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, the Chief Minister did not object to this particular cut motion (laughter) because I do not like to go into the rules but most probably because the Chief Minister thinks that this is quite important so most probably he has not objected in so far as this particular cut motion is concerned. He wanted to have a full discussion on this subject. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to make it very clear. At the very outset of the discussion that in bringing out a decision of this particular subject I did not have the slightest conception of condemning or maligning any officer in the Police force, be it in the I.G.P., the D.I.G., S.I. or the Additional S.P. or the constable. I do not even have any intention of maligning the force as a whole. But I would like to make it very clear that one intention on this particular subject is about relationship. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to make a few observations in far as this aspect of the mater is concerned. First of all it is necessary that the public should realise and understand that policemen are human beings. The public should understand and realise that the policemen are human beings and vice versa. The police should understand in their activities and attitude that the public also are human beings. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we had on some occasions in the past and I have seen with my own eyes that sometimes if you watch during the clashes between the public and the policemen it will make you think that may be, either on the side of the public or on the side of the policemen each tends to think that the other side are not human beings, the determent that is mooted out by the public against policemen or policemen against the public, seems as if they are not human beings. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there was an occasion in Calcutta when the trouble flared up and I was there myself. When a particular student had a policemen for his father and he did not know or realised that his father was there in the group of policemen standing on the road and there was throwing of stones and the son of that policemen had thrown stones at the group of policemen, but when he returned home he found that his father was lying very ill with a bandage round his head. So he asked his mother what has happened to his daddy and the mother replied that some stones were thrown at him. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have seen other incidents in Shillong also just in front of the District Council Court I have seen that with my own eyes with due respect to the police but I cannot imagine or really believe how those policemen treated the public. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have seen it with my own eyes that the police just waged at the public right and left badly. Actually according to rules they have to start from the leg and not from the head. I do not know whether there is such a rule or not Mr. Speaker, Sir.......

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Not Mr. Speaker, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. S.D. Khongwir :- It is all the same, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know whether there is such a rule in the police force the purpose of dispersing a crowd, a policeman should charge the crowd with his lathi starting from the head. In this incident I saw some policemen straight-away started from the head and we have had to take some persons to the hospital for treatment. And because if this a feeling of mutual animosity is created between the public and the police. The second I would like to impress upon the Government, through you, Sir, is that it is essential that our police force should improve their efficiency. I have had the occasion, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that while we were traveling together with one Minister a couple of months ago had a talk on the question to improve the proficiency. What we used to do in a restaurant is. when we call for snack, tea and other, the bearer used to bring the bill of say Rs.4, we pay for the bill and we left away Re.1 as what we call, a tip for the bearer. One of my friend, an officer of the Government asked me what d you actually mean by a tip ? I said to him that tip is to improve proficiency. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we do not require to offer any tip to our policemen to improve their efficiency as it is being done in the restaurant in so far as the bearers are concerned. But I would like to remind the Government, through you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that to create trust and confidence of the public, it is necessary that the public should see that there is efficiency in our police force and the confidence which is very essential for the public to see in the working of the police force, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Yet another point I understand and this, according to my belief and comprehension is very much wanting. This is persuasiveness. this should be the basis of a pleasant courtesy. A person will not know anything but this will yield good result. Police in Meghalaya and for that matter, in India as a whole is lacking very much in persuasiveness, a pleasant courtesy. This is a very lovely word that is missing in the dictionary of the police force. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will relate one incident about a couple of years ago when we had a school sport, some members of the crowd trying to go forward which is very near the seat of the Minister. We had requested the police to request the public to fall back and there were three or four police constables deputed to clear away the crowd. But what happened, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, because of lack of persuasiveness and the courtesy which the police constables are being trained to do that, straight-way they went with their lathis or truncheon, a short lathi, they simply went to the crowd and said to them in Hindi :hato, hato" or something like that and the crowd simply just got annoyed at the attitude of these  constable. So, seeing this situation, as General Secretary of the Shillong Sports Association together with some of our officers, we have to save the situation. We went to the crowd and said freely and frankly with them and requested them to fall back and they did fall back. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, had the police constables just requested them to fall back. I think our peaceful crowd 'would definitely fallen back on the request of these Police constables. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is always a feeling of animosity today between the police and the public and also Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is another point which I would like to suggest and that is the Government should improve the outside appearance of the police constables especially of the low rank police personnel. The present uniform looks very sluggish and pragmatic Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, and also very inactive.

        You should see the uniforms of the constables are very haggard, sluggish, old looking and inactive. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this also has a very bad psychological effect on the public. In Khasi, we used to say "Pulit dap ram" indebted police man. The police used to go after it. This is what we used to call in Khasi even now. At present, the percentage has gone down but still we say the old shabby looking constable "Pulit dap ram" why, because of his outside appearance. This has a very bad psychological effect on the public at large. So I would suggest Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not standing here to plead for the interest of those constables. Let is not be thought so. But I am pleading only for the interest of the State, interest of the public and the interest of the police force. I am saying this because of the outside appearance of our police force specially of the low rank and let it be improved. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, steps should be taken for the development of more formal or informal contacts between the members of the police force and the local communities. This, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, will be in my opinion, a little bit difficult. Contacts more formal and informal between the members of the police force and the local communities will be a little bit difficulties because Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, of the difficult community barriers that we have, it may be very difficult to implement this aspect, this proposal that I have made in so far as this particular subject is concerned. But Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if, especially in the rank of the constable or the police force, local persons could be appointed, I think this aspect of the matter can be examined for the general benefit of the State viz-a-viz the police force. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, even form our side, representatives in this august House, if we ring up Beat House whether it is Garikhana, Laitumkhrah or anywhere for that matter it is very difficult to transact the business on the telephone because of the language. It is very difficult I have experienced this myself on several occasions. Sir, I rang up 3151 and the first words I heard in the telephone is "Gune kuishe" (Laughter) I simply got lost and I could not proceed any further except when I started to speaking in Hindi I do not know what language is that. It is very difficult Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. If we can recruit more and more local persons in so far as this particular aspect is concerned then contacts can be arranged between the members of police and the public. I think this we can do, if we have more and more of our local boys in the force. For example, if the police constable from Mawlai, a Khasi constable from Mawlai, can easily mix with the Mawlai people and a Khasi with the Khasis, Garo with the Garos. This can be done with due respect to other communities. I personally refer to the constables of our community, because sometimes I find that for any matter to what extent I would like to mix with those particular persons because of this barrier, it is really very difficult to really mix, to have contact with those functionaries. And the last but not the least, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, here I would would like to bring out several points. I know there are several other points which we can discuss in this House or for that matter in so far as public-police relationship is concerned. I know there are several other points to be discussed but I just brought out only six points which I consider to be very important. The last point, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that I have noted down here is that a person who cannot smile should not be recruited in police force (Laughter) because a face that cannot smile is never good. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have noticed that all the hon. Members here, all the 57, excluding myself because I cannot see myself, have a very amiable smiling face. That is why Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, they are very much popular amongst their electorate. (Laughter) So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will just dilate on this. This morning - I was examining a person to be appointed as a peon of some organisations. Two of them came and one, has got a smiling face. He looks a little bit dirty no doubt but he had a very amiable smiling face, (Laughter) and the other boy was simple, I may say clear but looks dull. He did not move his eyes when I looked at him, when I looked at these two boys, I said in my heart. I will take the one who has got a smiling face. I can trust him, I cannot trust that fellow who has not got a smiling face. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, these are my humble suggestions to the Government. I think the whole State, public of Meghalaya and also in India, for that purpose, would like to have better and closer understanding between the public and the police and it is for the good of the people if they can really feel the safety of our lives and properties. When we know that a policeman is there, we know that we can trust him and respect him. This has not progressed and it has to get through. It may take time but I think it is never too late to start this process so that in a couple of years we can have in our State a very friendly relationship between the police and the public.

Shri Jormanik Syiem :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to support the cut motion moved by the hon. member from Mawlai. It is expected that the police should be the custodian of law. It is unfortunate that we have not been able to create that friendly relation between the police and the public in our State.

        I am also wondering why the police should be empowered to beat or ill-treated suspects. This is a policy which I would like to deal with because, as my learned and hon. friend from Mawlai has stated the police are always a terror to the public. It is also unfortunate that the attitude of the police of the old days has not changed. Only the other day there was a man who arrested on slope of Shillong Peak. He was fishing in a stream when one thief carrying some metals was passing by. He was just talking with this man when the Chowkidar from the office came chasing the thief. But he could not catch him and then he asked the fisherman to come to the office. Later, when he went there, he found that the police officer was already in the office. The fisherman told them the name of the thief who had run away. The fisherman told them that he did not know that it was the thief he just talked to. He told them that the man was just passing. And because he could not tell them the name, he was brought to the Thana and was beaten up because the police suspected that he was concealing the fact. We do not know whether the suspect actually knew the thief but there was no point to beat him up and when his wife and mother came I had to speak to the officer-incharge of the Police Station and said that the man must be produced before the court and so he had to be detained. Any way, I had to request the Police officer concerned not to beat him, up because the poor fellow might not really know that particular thief the Police were after. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I feel rather reluctant to speak on this point because I had a very sad experience I have had a sad experience also in the Sessions Court. Many Sessions cases failed because the suspects who were brought before the Magistrate to confess would say "I was forced to come because I was threatened by the Police". And so they would get acquittal orders. So it is very sad that these things are being perpetrated even at this juncture even after 30 years of independence. Our Police here should try to adopt an attitude as suggested by the hon. member from Mawlai so that they can get the co-operation of the public by a polite way of approaching them. The police needs better training and better instructions from the Government and this sort of hostile attitude towards the public will not help them in the discharge of their duties. The behaviour of the people whether the officer-in-charge or the investigation officer, with the public uptil now has not been very happy. It is suggested that if more Meghalayans are treated well, they will get better relation but until the policy in changed, until the people of Meghalaya find that the police service is not that kind which the people detest, it will be difficult to get enough enrolment from among the Meghalayans. As the hon. member has said there should be more improvement in the police service and the Government would only say that very few are coming forward and so they cannot avoid appointing other people from outside the State. But the reason for that is because the policy adopted by the this Police Department has not been able to attract our young men to enter the police service. So I would appeal to the Government through you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, to see whether this policy of beating up suspects and even convicts should not be adopted because in that case the police will always be looked upon as a terror to the public. With these few words, I support the cut motion.

Shri S.N. Koch :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to oppose the cut motion. I have been listening with great interest to the speeches made by the mover of the cut motion and other hon. Members. I am surprised at some of the suggestions put forth by the hon. Members. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Members are aware of the fact that the Police are to discharge their heavy duties, they are the custodians of law. They are also the custodian of the citizens. They are to tackle many intricate problems to protect the society and also the properties of the society. So their duties are so much and under such circumstances, the appointment policy as suggested that a man who can smile can be the best Policeman, I think, is a very dangerous proposition and no where in the world there is a such a position. And if we try to implement the proposition that instead of the betterment of the State I think it will lead to destruction. So taking into consideration the submission of the hon. mover this cut motion does not deserve any consideration.  

        Another point raised by one of the hon. Member Mr. Syiem is that whenever any accused persons are arrested they confess before the Magistrate and at the time of trial they say we are being tortured by the Police. He himself being a member of the Bar has declared this to be so and said that this is the fault of the Meghalaya Government. If there is any fault it is the fault of the law, and that fault is not made by the Meghalaya Government. But it is there in the Cr.P.C. where it is clearly provided that a man need not plead his guilt and I request the hon. Member to go through Section 164 (1) of the Cr.P.C. and Sections 24 to 27 of Indian Evidence Act and as a member of the Bar I think the hon. Member also take the fullest opportunity of these provisions of the law. Whenever occasion arise he himself treats the accused persons in the same way, but then blames the police for torture whether there is any torture or not. This is generally done by the defence lawyer because law permits it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, another suggestion made by the hon. Mover of this cut motion is that the appointment to this department should be preferably Khasis. I do admit that and I think the Government has made reservation of posts to the tune if 40 per cent for the Garos and 40 per cent for the Khasis. Experiences shows that there are many Khasi boys who have appointed in the Police force and after going for training for some months they leave their posts.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- May I have the records read. I do not say that Government should appoint only Khasis. The hon. Member has said that I advocated the idea of appointing all Khasis to the Police force but I have also mentioned about the Khasi and Garo community. I think it is very misleading to say that.

Shri S.N. Koch :- Since the hon. Member has not the patience to listen I think he must misunderstood me. But then I think there is a tendency in his speech to attract the attention of the Government to appoint only Khasis. I have the right to clear the position. It is the honest contention of the Government that local people should get due preference and for that the Government has done whatever they can to push through the local tribal people. But to lay the blame on the Government for not giving preference to local Khasi people is not a good ground because there is no such Battalion in our State which is known as the Khasi Battalion or Garo Battalion, there is only one Police Battalion, i.e., the Meghalaya Police Battalion, there is only appointment made must comprise of the people of the entire State. So far language difficulties are concerned that is inevitable. Because once a man is appointed to the Police Force he is to serve the entire State and not necessarily a Garo constable serving in Garo Hills an a Khasi in Khasi Hills. And as such if the Khasi constable goes to Garo Hills he will face the language difficulties there. Also if a Garo constable is posted in Khasi Hills he will also face the same difficulty. It is very inherent. So language should not be the criterion for appointment whether he is a Khasi or a Garo but as local men they should get preference. While giving the preference Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir I must stress the point that it is the quality which should be the guiding force and not the community and at the same time a smiling face. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with these few observations I strongly oppose this cut motion. But before I resume my seat I would like to make a few observations also and that is because our Police force in many respects had done a very splendid job and that is why our Government may be blind to some of the wrong deeds done by the Police force. (Shri H. Hynniewta - Deliberately ?)

Shri S.N. Koch :- May be or may not be or it may be a camouflage. Some actions of the Government has made certain grounds on which the members from the opposition bench speak against it that sometimes officers who are in one station about one decade cannot be moved out when transferred because of the reasons known to them. There are such instances which show that a particular officer is so indispensable that even if Government wants to transfer him they cannot do that. I think this sort of action of the Government gives rise to the public to suspect something. Moreover there are of course some actions taken by the Police Officer posted at Tura who has understood the reign of terror and who can be compared to Yahya Khan and I hope our Government will take note of it. ( A voice - May we know his name ?). No I am refraining from mentioning the name, under the rule.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- At least his designation.

Shri S.N. Koch :- I hope our Government is already aware of it and it will take such action to remove that officer from that particular position or transfer him to some other places.

Prof. A. Warjri :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to stand and support the motion and to participate in the discussion on cut Motion No.1. Now the Police force as we all know is one of the most important departments in so far as it a department that comes into close contact with the public and as public representatives I include all of us here. As members of the public we expect that the police should not be guardians of the law but also protector, helper and guide to the public. We want the police not only to keep law and order but also to execute their duties without oppression of the public and to remove corruption from the Department itself, from themselves and also from the public life. It a sad thing Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, to witness a Policeman letting off a culprit with little bribe of two rupees or five rupees. It is a pity to see a taxi driver regularly passing two rupees to a constable before he goes out on journey some where. I have witnessed this myself in the past few years. I wish I had a camera to take snaps of these things to bring them before you. But public used to see such things happen daily. Even here near the Assembly itself these things are taking place every day. It is also a pity to hear certain police officers claiming some shares, I do not know what is that share, especially in certain busy Beats in Shillong and also it is a pity to hear that some policemen are being regularly paid by certain businessmen who run their business between  here and Gauhati and those business whatever they carry are never caught. We know for a fact that quite a number of people have reported for example the smuggling of liquor from here to other places. Although smuggling of liquor does not come under police, yet they can help apprehending the smugglers liquor is being smuggled in tyre tubes to other places. During days of food shortage foodstuff were being carried to some other places from here with police closing their eyes, as we learned that these certain police people right from Gauhati up to Shillong are being paid on regular basis by those businessmen.

        Judging on the whole, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Police Department is not the worst Department. I am very glad that a number of police cases pending especially in the Thana have been looked into by the S.P. himself and there are less and less cases pending.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to point out that this particular cut motion confined to discuss about the policy of public police relationship.

        I would like to know whether he has taken up all these allegations which he has stated with the concerned authority. Otherwise, the scope of discussion should confine to discuss how relationship between  police and public can be brought about and he should suggest. Now here he is trying to bring his own cut motion which was disallowed regarding raising a general discussion on the working of the Police Department.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Sir, there is no scope to discuss any other matter.

Prof. A. Warjri :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am talking about police-public relationship.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- No. You are alleging that some policemen are on the pay-roll of some businessmen on regular basis. That is not the relationship. That is about corruption.

Prof. A. Warjri :- I am saying that the relationship between the police and those businessmen. That is a corrupt relationship.

Shri H. Hadem :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise on a point of order. Both the sides are not addressing the Chair.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- A point has been raised that whether those allegations have been brought to the notice of the Government ?

Prof A. Warjri :- I think I should ask my speech to be re-read. What I have said is that I heard those things from the public. I said that there are complaints from the public; I did not say that I accuse them.

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- The main point is to discuss the relationship between police and public.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- To be precise, certain policies, definite to be followed in the matter of relationship to be brought out. He should make his suggestion in what best way police-public relationship could be brought about.

Prof. A. Warjri :- Unless I bring out certain facts prevailing here and there and unless I describe my experiences, how can I give my suggestion. So, may I continue Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir ?

Mr. Deputy Speaker :- Yes.

Prof. A. Warjri :- Now there is one Branch in the Police Department which needs thorough overhauling and change of certain personnel. There are a few Branches, but I will take up only one Branch, i.e., the Traffic Branch. There is a close relationship between police and the public in this department. As we know this Branch is manned by an Inspector and some Sub-Inspector-in-charge of a number of constable whose dress is white during summer and blue during winter. Now it is witnessed by all that private cars, taxis and especially trucks are being held up. It is their duty to perform and carry out orders. That is known to each and every of one of us. Whether there is an order or not when they catch or hold a car for certain violation of traffic rules, by payment of 5 rupees or payment of 6 rupees things can be altered. That is known to all of us. We cannot ignore this and we have seen this thing happening in this town of Shillong. But we do not know whether the police have power, I am asking the Government, to fine even to the time of a thousand rupees.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not going to reply to these questions as these are outside the purview of the discussion.

Prof. A. Warjri :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, then what about the fate of those people who have been affected ? It seems that no action can be taken on the part of the Government officials.

Shri W. A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Sir, it is very easy to talk about public criticism and to bring about all these allegations about the corrupt practices of the Police Department. But it is not a proper procedure to blame the Government and if it so then I am not going to reply to his charges. If it comes through proper procedure then only I would reply. But Sir, intentionally all these points are confined to the Police Department. Definitely, we have failed to bring about better facilities and better cooperation between the police and the public.

Prof A. Warjri :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, here they say that they are concerned only about the changing of uniform of the police and they are not concerned about all such happenings, then how can it be, Sir ? Now, therefore, in order to maintain a good relationship as the Hon'ble Chief Minister has said, I think the police should avoid things in order to establish good relationship between the public and the police there are certain things that should be avoided. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I give an example here ? For example, during t h e s e days they are creating nuisance to the public which may be called real nuisance to the people of Shillong. They will stop the car and complaint against the driver that your tyre is worn out, and you are required to change it. Again they will instruct another driver to dim the light and again they will stop another truck driver and check his driving licence etc and as a consequence there will be a big crowd as the traffic will be jammed because of stoppage of the truck and I think these things should be stopped.

Shri P.R. Kyndiah :- Yes, it does not help the public relationship.

Prof. W. Warjri :- So Sir, I think that in order to maintain good relationship between police and the public it is high time that changes should be made at the Shillong Police Station. I think the police Station in Shillong has been manned by men who are there in the police department since they were appointed as constable and from this post they have been now promoted as Inspectors. I think there should be a change now and there should be a rule in the Police Department by which a police personnel should not stay more than a certain number of years in the same place. Then again the mover of the cut motion has mentioned about the language, to which, Mr. Koch the hon. Member from Mendipathar, has given his reaction, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, here I would like to suggest that during the administration of Assam Government we found that almost all the police personnel who could learn the Assamese language were suitably awarded. Then why cannot this Government also pass such orders that all the police personnel who are serving here in Meghalaya should learn Khasi or Garo languages and they should be suitably rewarded and this will also bring a good relationship between the police and the public.

Shri E. Bareh (Minister, P.W.D. etc) :- They should learn Pnar language also.

Shri Humphrey Hadem :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I oppose this proposal because he has suggested Khasi and Garo languages only and our Jaintia language has been totally neglected.

Prof. A. Warjri  :- I said Khasi and Garo languages should be taught. Do I have to remind you that Khasi also included Pnar or do I have to remind you a common folk song "Khasi U Pnar U Bhoi U War ......" And Sir, about the objection made by Mr. Koch, the hon. Member from Mendipathar, about the smile and why he is so much worried about the smiles, I would like to say here that it is of no wonder if he knows about those Boblies of London and the Canadian mounted police.

Shri S.N. Koch :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I remind the hon. Member about the character of Lady Macbeth?

Prof. A. Warjri :- Then Sir, he also mentioned about C.R.P.C. About this I would like to inform him that this has not been thrust upon us by force by the Britishers. But may I remind the hon. Member that we have made it our in regard to this C.R.P.C and we have adopted it as our C.R.P.C. and with these words I resume my seat.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir I heard that the mover of the cut motion during the time he was speaking mentioned about smiles to give much impression of his points. Now I stand to oppose the cut motion and his smiles. The cut motion is about the public and the police relationship. In this connection I would like to cite an example here that when there was a tournament all the people of Meghalaya were proud of it to see that the police of Meghalaya are taking most important part in the tournament and there was no trouble. Rather there was a smile ! Sir, we have been reading in the news-papers about the public police relationship in different States and some time back, before the creation of this State. Even in this place of ours there has been lot of talks about the public-police relationship which has been not always good but for the last five or six years although there may be some individual cases here and there such as taxi cases, drives cases etc about some misunderstanding between the police and public, yet the general relationship as very good during the last seven years after the creation of the State. We have not heard of any clashes between the public and the police. The hon. member who has moved the cut motion has mentioned about the efficiency. That is what we all want to know. But while mentioning about the efficiency, many things have been mentioned. Criticisms have been made about the inefficiency on that part of the police personnel's but what about the efficiency of the public. The hon. member, Mr. Jormanik Syiem, has mentioned about murder cases having failed because of inefficiency on the part of the police. But what about the inefficiency on the part of the public in helping the police to become more efficient in conducting the cases. Therefore, I say that in order that the public police relationship should be efficient. There should be a close relationship, the public should approach the police in such an efficient manner so that detection of cases will not fail. The hon. member has also mentioned that the uniforms of the police are very dirty. If you go to the workshop, you will find that the mechanic who does more work is more dirty than the man who does less work. It may be that the police spend the night in the verandah or it may be that they are going without umbrella, or they have no time to look after their uniforms. That is why they have become dirty. I once asked a policeman - why are you so dirty ? He replied that he has no time even to change his uniform and that he has to sleep anywhere and everywhere. We should not be concerned only with dirtiness of uniforms, but we should be concerned with dirtiness in its real nature. The hon. member has not mentioned that the police in Meghalaya are dirty in nature, but they are dirty in uniform. We are afraid if they are dirty in other forms.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is even worst. I take a cue of the hon. member Mr. Pohshna. Of course I am not inclined to agree with him that the police are dirty otherwise. But if he says that the police are dirty in other forms, it is up to him.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- I did not say they are dirty in other forms.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- You said in other forms.

Shri P.R. Kyndiah :- It has a great reflection on the whole Police Department.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- I request the hon. member not to be mislead.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not a person to mislead the hon. member. Actually I expect that he should understand what he says. What is the connotation and import of which he speaks. Coming to this House, participating in the speech, we have to be very responsible. If he says that he does not know about dirty uniforms, I say it is alright. But we have to be very careful since dirtiness relates to other forms.

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- Sir, I said that I am not concerned if the uniforms are dirty, if they are not dirty otherwise.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- You have to make it plain and we should be clear about it. 

Shri H.E. Pohshna :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the last portion is about smiles. The move has said that we should not recruit a man who has got no smile. I think we have touched the very nature of a man and if smile is one of the qualifications, then we will have to ask the applicant during the interview; what is your qualification. How far have you read ? What about smiles ? He will say class VIII, Chest - yes, height - yes. But if he cannot smile, then he is disqualified. I agree that there should be a smile on many occasions. But there should not be smiles on many occasions. But there should not be smiles on all occasions. There are dangerous smiles also. The hon. member from Mawkhar has just stated that some 2 or 3 rupees have been taken from taxi driver or other drivers. I hope while asking for it he will smile. I would say that they have to smile at the right time and not to smile when it is not the time. When we have mentioned about smiles we should also remember about tears. There are occasions like accidents here and there. And on such occasions how can you expect a smile. Rather we see tears coming from the eyes of policemen who are sincere in their duties. Therefore, with these few words, I oppose the cut motion

( At this stage, Mr. Speaker occupied the Chair )

* Shri H. Hadem :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to take part in this discussion of this cut motion. We have heard that the mover has pressed very much, as stated by the hon. Member who has just now spoken before me, has stressed on the qualifications and disqualifications. We all agreed that as far as practicable we would offer suggestions to the Government that recruits to the Police force should be taken from the local applicants. We were once told even in this House that most of our local applicants were being disqualified because they are short in stature. I would make it very clear before the Government that man is not made for the rule, but rules are made for man. As such in order to bring good relationship between members of the public and the police, I think this matter should be considered because, naturally, the local people have got clear understanding of the local problems. As such, recruitment of the local persons is necessary and the rules should be waived to suite the local conditions, not simply because they are short or long or big or small or thick or thin that they should be disqualified. We should not blame the applicants and if we do that, we are going to the extent of blaming the Creator. I think our people are not very competent because whenever they are given the chance, they gave a good account of themselves. As such, I would request the Government that in view of the discussion which we have in this House, some steps should be taken as far as recruitment policy is concerned, in the interest of good relationship of the public and the police. So I would agree with the hon. member from Nongtalang on the impression given by the mover that the person who does not smile must not be appointed. Of course, Sir, there are times when a person must smile and when he must not smile. Anyhow, this I think will not be a very important criterion in the selection of a man. But we must see that those who are appointed must be sincere in their work. Sir, in the connection, I would like to cite one instance. I would not name the person. But as already stated by the hon. Members that there are Police Officers in Shillong and also as stated by the hon. Member, I do not remember his constituency ...... to which Mr. Koch belongs, I think it is Mendipathar. He has said that even in Tura there were Police Officers which have been there for long long time. I do not know whether my information is correct or not that the police officers must not be more than three years in one particular place. But there are some police officers who have been in one place for more than 8 years. For example, he may be in Shillong for some years and posted in Garikhana, then Laitumkhrah Beat House etc, and then in this way he will be completing 8 years. By implication, it seems in this particular case, that he established a very good relationship with the public otherwise how a police officer can be posted in one particular place for more than 8 or 9 years. He must be a very sincere, hardworking and efficient one and must be able to bring about good relationship between himself and the public at large. Here I would like to make some observations. Sir, I have personally seen that there were some leaflets issued by the Police Department when at that time there were so many difficulties here in Shillong, and as such, they wanted all inhabitants to carefully look after their houses and properties. Sir, I would like to suggest that this clearly indicates the failure on the part of Police Department that they could not attend to their duty well. Of course it is a good thing to issue pamphlets to all inhabitants in order to establish good relationship with the public, but this does not show that they are efficient enough and instead of tackling this matter by themselves, they have issued such instructions to the public to keep watch over their houses and property. Here I would like to bring out form my own experiences, some instances about the posting of police personnel here in the Assembly building and around this Assembly compound as well as in the Assembly Hostel compound. 

Mr. Speaker :- Mr. Hadem, I think these are issues which should not be raised inside this House in so far as the relationship between the Police Department in its capacity and the public is concerned. But so far as maintenance of law and order in the State or in the city of Shillong or any town is concerned, it is a different matter. And in so far as duties of police personnel inside the precincts of this House are concerned it is entirely my responsibility. You can come to me and discuss with me about these police officers inside the precincts of this House. It has not come to my knowledge in any case that their presence is not necessary. I would request the hon. Members to be more precise to the points that they would like to speak. But if you are moving at so slow a speed, I am afraid I will be put into an embarrassed position So I would request the hon. Members to be more brief in making their speech before this House. Therefore, I do not think the matter which has been raised by the hon. Member from Mynso-Ralliang  deals with the policy matter relating to the working of police officers and to train them to have a good relationship with the public. I think the contention of the hon. Member from this side is that Government should see that training should be imparted to police personnel in such a way that they should with the public in general. I think that is your contention.

Shri H. Hadem :- Mr. Speaker, I am always brief and I do not want a long speech and I do not want to take much time of the House. I do not want to cast reflection on anything regarding police personnel within the precincts of this House but I want to say something about their relationship with the public outside this House which may mean either here or somewhere. But I did not say anything against it. But I mean to say there is lack of discipline, lack of politeness and lack of responsibility. I want to point out, Sir, that in the last 4 or 5 years they were standing on the way while we were coming and going to and from this House, they lack all discipline and politeness. Moreover, Sir, I think while on duty they should not smoke especially when they are on duty inside the precincts of this House under your jurisdiction. Last, but not the least, Mr. Speaker Sir, we cannot appreciate their responsibility so much and since you have directed me to bring out this matter directly to you, I shall personally come to you and point out and discuss with you all the defects which I have already seen with Police personnel. Apart from that I want to say that so far we have seen there was no bad relationship, but only good relationship between them and the public. It may be worse in some instances that instead of helping the complainants, they helped the culprits. Instead of helping the real innocent people who have come for help, they are helping the culprits. Of course, generally speaking, they are found to be sincere and having relationship with the public. With these few words Sir, I oppose this Cut Motion.

Shri Hoover Hynniewta :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, can I speak a few words. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the spirit of amiability and good neighborliness that the mover of this cut motion has injected has indulged me to make a few remarks on this subject which is so vital for the maintenance of law and order the arms of which will undoubtedly extend to all spheres of activity in our body politics. Sir, first of all, I think we should make it very clear that remarks made amount the police or against police personnel should not be sweeping in nature. We can not say that all policemen are bad, we cannot say that all of them are good. I think everyone of us who have been in different sphere of life has got the rare opportunity or the rare privilege to come into contact with policemen who are of finest specimen of human nature. That the rare experience which is but the most unfortunate experience to come across policemen who have demonstrated the fine human nature. Therefore, I feel, that when we make any remarks about police personnel and their affairs in our State we must be very clear and specific to draw this line of distinction. It has been my proud privilege even to day to have come across police officers who are a model of courtesy and responsiveness. We have come across also some officers who will not show any inclination to what you have got to do with police men under home. Their very decor that they feel much privileged in their relationship with him and his subordinate officers precluded him from having a patient mind on any complaint that we bring to his notice. He said my officers, my policemen as if he suggested any bad behaviour seemed a personal insult upon him. This is one of the draw-backs which has got widespread influence upon the policemen and police officers. You have hardly opened your mouth when he will jump to the defence of the policemen or constable. This is very very annoying and this is one of the reasons that has cost so much bad feelings between some members of the public and members of the police force Sir, that the police is functioning in an ideal manner I think, would mean transferring ourselves to a feeling of paradise. I would suggest that the policemen that we see in abundant measure and many member of the police force are also equally responsible I do not want to single out the policy force as villain of peace. In this particular regard, I feel, in all sincerity, we are made of the same clay and that corruption and bribery peacelessness are confined not only to policemen but it is found in all human activities. It is particularly evident in the case of policemen, because they have to play the role which is more unpleasant to arrest people and to punish them. It is certainly a role which is not very popular and therefore our angle of vision is more or less concentrated on the policemen. I may be compelled to suggest that it is the same clay or grain that runs into the blood into the constitution of the policemen as in the case of other members of the Government services. But I do not feel Sir, that if an officer in particular demonstrates a greater willingness and greater readiness to listen to the grievances put forward before them by the public, I would predicate that 30 percent of the grievances would have been redressed because there is such a thing as letting off steam. When we have been able to criticise the people who been unfair to you there may evaporation. Therefore, I do feel that the police officer must demonstrate greater willingness to listen to the grievances and to be able to understand the root of the matter. Sometimes people from villages are happy to beat around the bush. They did not come straight to the point resulting in the police officers impatient and this will tend to dismiss the complaint. Therefore I feel that we must emphasise the greater willingness on the part of the police officer to listen to public complaints. Sir, this matter of relationship between the police and members of the public is, to me, a vicious circle. How to break through these vicious circles is very difficult, it is not an easy matter. I venture to think - if the opposition and Treasury benches can think of doing away with this vicious circle that it is not easy for a policemen who is newly recruited even if he has been educated about the psychological approach that he should make towards the public but immediately when he comes in contact with a drunken man and when the laws says that a drunker man must be taken to jail but he will be surprised to find that many members will jump to the defence of the person. Therefore there is law and order situation among the conscientious members of the public in their protection to bring about good understanding between the policemen and public. They will try to intervene and he would stand the risk of being attacked either by the members of the public or members of the police force. Therefore, this vicious circle is very difficult to break. I am at one with the mover of the cut motion that the police must consist of persons who are to make a start. We can make the start lest some members from the other side of the House are very critical and the members of the public would say we should be critical to all those who are at fault. But I do feel that the members of the public do not have as much responsibility as the trained persons of the police force. Have let them make a start and the police also will respond in an equally abundant measure but a start must be made. Sir, one of the most irritating factors in the relationship between the police and the public is failure to solve crimes, especially murders. These murders, most of them are not al all solved. In my part of the country which I had the privilege to represent many murders lay undetected. If you go to the police force they say that the members of the public are not cooperating and are not coming forward as witnesses in a number of cases. It is very true. The unwillingness or induced willingness on the part of the police also has got a great role to play. So I feel Sir, in conclusion that we should all do our level best to bring about an amicable relationship between the members  of the force and the members of the public and I will emphasise once again that a start should be made by the trained personnel of the police force.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am indeed very grateful to the mover of the cut motion who has taken the opportunity through his cut motion to discuss about improving the relationship between the police and the members of the public. It is indeed a very important matter, and as such it is indeed desirable that we should discuss this matter. The mover of the cut motion started his discussion with a reference to a meeting which was supposed to have been convened by the police to discuss with the headmen of a particular locality on the ways and means to bring about better relationship between the police and the public.

        In this particular connection, through you, Sir, I would like to request the hon. member, the mover of the cut motion to realise how the good relationship can be brought about. He was speaking about a different kind of lecture. It must be the aim of the police first of all to see that there is a good relationship between the different communities in a particular place. Now this meeting which was convened has a certain background. There was a certain in Lower Mawprem area in which tribal and a non tribal were involved. You would appreciate, Sir, that whenever there is some sort of involvement between the tribal and non tribal, it is understood that there will be some sort of fear among the two sections of the Society. Therefore the police thought that in order to prevent any trouble between the tribal and the nontribal society of Shillong town, it would be good to take the leaders of different communities into confidence so that the case can proceed according to law. People should not take the law into their own hands. I think the people will appreciate that in order to bring about a good relationship between the communities it is the duty of the police to come to the rescue.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, just one minute. We have thought it fit to bring forward this cut motion in this very important subject. I just made a reference to this particular subject. I have not complained about it but I simply said I just remind the incident and actually it was this incident that prompted me to bring forward this particular motion and I was not complaining about that, I have just said that I have come prepared to discuss about the police and public relation. It is my duty to speak of what I have really prepared about a month ago.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Therefore, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not objecting to that also. But I am just trying to give a particular background to speak about that and an attempt was made to bring about a good understanding between the different communities. Well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am also concerned and I realise that there must be a change attitude on the part of the police towards the public. If I am to be very clear, it is not a one way traffic, it is a two way traffic. Relationship with the police can be improved if we as a society do not create a situation in which there may be confusion. I entirely agree with the hon. member from Nongkhlaw. Whether he is a member of the public or of the police force we are the same people. The son of the mover of the motion may join the police force or my son may join. I would, therefore, like to suggest, Sir that to bring about good relationship between the police and the public, is not a one way traffic, it is a two way traffic. If to-day, as I have said the other day, we can convert the State of Meghalaya into a welfare State there will be less opportunity for us to come into conflict with the police. But if the normal life of the public is subject to the interference by the police or if the public interfere with the police in the discharge of their duties in particular circumstances, there will be conflicts and there by the relationship is spoiled. I entirely agree with the hon. member from Nongkhlaw when he gave an example of a drunkard and the stern steps taken according to law. It was the duty of the police to take charge of the particular drunkard. But if the public turns into a desperate crowd interfering with police, naturally there will be conflict thereby spoiling the relationship between the public and the police. These things we must realise. We must allow the police to discharge their duties with interference. But sometimes we intervene by saying they should do their duty must but not misuse their power. But after all we must find out the fault of the police and the public as well. If the public by their own behavior can bring about a welfare State the police will not have scope for interference. We have talked about crime. By our own conduct we can lessen crime in the state, and to that extent Mr. Speaker, Sir, improve the good relationship between the police and the members of the public. If we can come in a big way to recruit local people it will be meeting the policy of the Government that 80 per cent of the vacancies in all ranks should be made available to local tribals, the Khasis, the Garos and Jaintias. But we cannot replace all the existing force by new recruits.

        It will have to go in a phased programme. Whenever a particular person wanted to go back to his parent Government in Assam, we allow him and to the vacancy created thereby we bring in a local recruit. I may tell the House that in the beginning, the response from the local people was not so encouraging but now it is. Though it is not related to the question of relationship between the police and the public, it was suggested that the police force should be improved. There was a suggestion that we should change the uniforms which are being used by the police. The Government is examining this question, at least, for the civil police. Now, in order to make the police more courteous and polite to the public, we are imparting a training to the police personnel. But it will depend again on the attitude or the character of the person himself. I would not agree to have only one qualification for recruitment to the police as suggested by the mover of the cut Motion. Yes, a person with a smiling face is suggestive or an amiable nature, but that should not be the only qualification which will qualify the person to be recruited to the police force. A complaint was made that because of the height prescribed for the police force local people are dropped because they are short. This question was discussed in this House a number of times and we have reduced the height from 5.4 to 5.2 and 5.1 in certain cases. I would request the Hon. Member who brought this particular point to realise that, at least physically there must be some qualifications for a particular type of job. Complaint has been made that the relationship is spoiled because the police officers and the police personnel have been allowed to make use of a particular police station as a police depot. Well, I will ask the department concerned to examine about this complaint and, if true, to pass orders to change the police officers and staff Good relationship should be maintained not only with the police officers and police personnel but with every officer of the Government. If any officer is allowed to remain in the same place, the same station for many years he can develop personal relationship between him and some of the public.

        The suggestion from the mover of the Cut Motion is that steps should be taken for constant contact with members of the public and the police. I do not know how this could be done but I would have it examined by the Department concerned. Another suggestion is that the relationship be improved by way of more and more recruitment of local people to the police force. Complaint was made about traffic police, the issue of pamphlets, the traffic rules and the use of vehicles. It was contended that in spite of pamphlets, the driver are not taking any heed. Well, it is not only in our State, even in a developed country like U.K. our Speaker was there, such pamphlets was issued to remind the drivers, but still it does not bring at the good desired. I think it is improper to think of taking action against them only on the ground. The child will take some time to learn. He may not be able to learn or to realise early but of we repeat, it may enter his mind. Well, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have to intervene but I am not going to reply to the charge of corruption unless and until specific charges are brought that such and such things are committed by the police. Unless specific charge is brought out it is no use talking about it, no corrective measure can be taken without specific instance to be brought to the notice of the Government. I would request the hon. Member to bring out specific charges against these police officers, police personnel who are indulged in such corrupt practices. Now, regarding the use of force, complaint was made that in order to disperse the crowd near the gate of the District Council, the police used lathis and they started from the head towards the bottom. According to his opinion, they must start from the bottom, form the legs and upwards (Laughter).

        Actually to deal with a situation like this, it is some times necessary to use force, but it must be to minimum degree. I would have been very happy if that complaint was brought then and there to the authority concerned.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- But we were very busy at that time. 

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- If they used this force, I cannot understand why, after so may days, it is brought to the notice of the Government. I do not think I have to touch more on this point. But I am equally concerned as the mover of the Cut Motion, and I think, we all agreed that good relationship is maintained not only with the police, but with all other Government departments and there must be a good understanding too. We should also make efforts to help each department execute duties assigned to it. It is only then that we can make a beginning towards our march to a welfare State. Therefore, let us try not to find fault with each other, but to deal with a problem seriously by an understanding the co-operative approach. Let us also remember that it is through the developmental activities alone that can we expect to achieve our aim. With these few words, I would request the hon. Mover to withdraw his cut motion.

Shri S.D. Khongwir :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I really appreciate the attitude taken by the Chief Minister; he was really very serious in so far as this important matter is concerned. He has tried his level best to give assurances in so far as the points raised either from this side or from that side of the House with regard to improvement in the relationship between the Police and the public are concerned. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just would like to point out that in moving the cut motion or in moving any motion or resolution before the House, I have taken a lot of pains to marshall the ideas and to offer suggestions to the Government. We have not come here just to juggle our opinions and ideas inside this august House. I expect that when we discuss a matter of great importance, of vital necessity, we should be serious in discussion. So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I quite agree with the views of the Chief Minister and of the hon. member from Nongkhlaw also. I have already stressed on the importance of a two-way traffic. In fact, I have said that it is very necessary for the public to assist and to have respect for the various activities of the Police. Of course, this will have to be developed; it cannot grow of itself. It has to be evolved and it will be gradual and so will take a number of years. The only thing that I have suggested is to let the Government make a beginning or a start so that in a number of years we may have a very amiable and good relationship, at least in our State, between the public and the Police Force. I would also like to make it very clear, Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my discussion. I have not been trying to find fault and, as I have just stated, I have prepared and I have exerted myself and I have come here to discuss with you and not to impose. I do not want to impose my ideas upon the Government. But I am convinced that the facts and the proposals that I have brought forward the Government may find agreeable or they may disagree; it is up to the Government to consider.  

        I am very happy that I have done my part and it would lie with the Government to consider. So with the attitude of the Chief Minister in so far as this vital matter is concerned, I find no other alternative but to withdraw the cut motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. member leave of the House that the cut motion be withdrawn. (Voice, yes, yes.)

        The cut motion is with leave of the House withdrawn.

        So far as cut motion No. 2 is concerned, it is a question of policy cut which cannot come within the purview of the points raised. In fact, the points raised do not come under policy cut. So it is disallowed. So let me put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.3,05,00,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March 1978 for the administration of the head "225 - Police and 260 - Fire Protection and Control."

( The motion was carried and the demand was passed ).

        The Chief Minister to move Grant No. 18.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.12,90,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March 1978 for the administration of the head "256 - Jails".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. Now there are two cut motions. The first cut motion stands in the name of Mr. W. Syiemiong and Mr. Rowell Lyngdoh.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I refer to Rule 145 (1) (a) which reads "that the amount of the demand be reduced to Re. 1 representing disapproval of the policy underlying the demand. But here in the notice given it aims to raise a discussion disapproving the manner in which Jails are run. No. 2 is to raise a discussion on Jails Administration. Though it is the disapproval of the policy ....

Mr. Speaker :- Cut motion No. 2 is concerned with a discussion on general administration but cut motion No. 1 seeks to disapprove the manner in which jails are run. here it is a question of interpretation whether the manner concerns both policy and also administration of jails or not. But by disapproving the manner it involves also policy - I think any of them will move because to disapprove anything done by the Government involves the policy matter also.

Shri W. Syiemiong :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, if not the Chief Minister had restrained himself because I was not going to move.

Mr. Speaker :- No. 2 is of a general nature and it is disallowed. May I put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs.12,90,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March 1978 for the administration of the head "256 - Jails".

( The motion was carried and the demand was passed ).

        The Chief Minister to move Grant No. 19.

Shri W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs.39,19,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1978 for the administration of the head "258-Stationery and Printing".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. I have received one cut motion. It is a token cut but discussion seeks to review the whole management of the State Government Press. It is too general and too vague and wide and so it is disallowed. Let me now put the question before the House. The question is that an amount of Rs. 39,19,000 be granted to the Minister-in-charge, to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1978 for the administration of the head "258-Stationery and Printing".

(The motion was carried and the demand was passed).

        Minister-in-charge, P.W.D., to move Grant No. 20.

Shri E. Bareh (Minister-in-charge, P.W.D. etc) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor I beg to move that an amount of Rs. 1,88,22,600 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1978 for the administration of the head "259-Public Works".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. There are a number of cut motions. No. 1 is a policy cut but it seeks to raise general discussion on the working of the Department, and so it is outside the purview of the policy cut. No. 2 is to raise a discussion disapproving the functions of the P.W.D. When it comes to the question of disapproving it implies the policy matter but the functions and policy are inter-related and I do not know what the hon. Member would be dealing. Now a discussion on the functions is too general.

Shri Rowell Lyngdoh :- Rather, with the functioning of the P.W.D. 

Mr. Speaker :- Then that should have come under a token cut. Therefore, since it is not specific, the cut motion is disallowed. But before I ask Mr. Jackman Marak - of course his cut motion is a very specific one - to take the floor I would point out that the time is up.


Adjournment

        The House stands adjourned till 9.30 on Tuesday, the 7th June, 1977.

D.S. KHONGDUP

Dated Shillong :

Secretary,

The 6th June, 1977.

Meghalaya Legislative Assembly.