Proceedings of the Budget Session o the Meghalaya Legislative Assembly assembled at 9.30 a.m. on Friday, the 10th June 1977 in the Assembly Chamber, Shillong, with the Speaker in the Chair


Mr. Speaker :- Let us take up Unstarred Question No.64.

UNSTARRED QUESTION

(Replies to which were laid on the Table)

New Development Blocks in Garo Hills District

Shri. C.A. Sangma asked :

64.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Community Development be pleased to state -

(a) Whether the Government propose to create new Development Blocks in the District of Garo Hills within the current year ?

(b) If so, when and the places to be included in the new Block?

Shri. Grohonsingh Marak (Minister Community Development )

64.     (a) - No.

        (b) - Does not arise.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- (a) Sir. Whether the Government is aware that there is a representation to create new Development Blocks in the Khasi and Jaintia Hills and the Garo Hills District ?

Shri. Grohonsingh Marak (Minister Community Development ) :- Yes.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- May we know the details of this ?

Shri. Grohonsingh Marak (Minister Community Development ) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Joint Centre-Study Team headed by Shri. Tarlok Singh recommended about 10 years back the creation of three additional Tribal Development Blocks in the then United Khasi Jaintia Hills District, two in Shillong Sub division and one in Jaintia Hills Sub division. For Garo Hills District, the Team recommended creation of two new Blocks. In accordance with the recommendations of the Study Team, the Government of Assam submitted a proposal in 1966 to the Government of India for creation of 5 new Development Blocks. The proposal and did not materialise during the time of the Assam Government.

        The proposal was renewed with the Government of India on 22nd July 1974 but the Government of India regretted their inability to accept the proposal. So the proposal did not materialise and the Government of India having regretted their inability to bear any expenditure, no new Blocks could be taken up as the programme was by then normalised with effect from 1st April 1969.


Allotment of Jeep for the DI of Schools East Garo Hills District

Shri. C.A. Sangma asked :

65.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Education be pleased to state -

(a) Whether the Government has sanctioned a jeep for the Deputy Inspector of Schools for East Garo Hills District at Williamnagar ?

(b) If not, the reason thereof ?

Shri. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister, Education) replied :

65.    (a) - No.

        (b) - Due to financial constraint.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- (a) Sir. Whether there is any possibility to sanction a Jeep since financial constraints is being eased ?

Prof. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister, Education) :- Yes, Sir.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- When does the Department expect that the constraint would be eased ?

Prof. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister, Education) :- I want notice, Sir.


Chairman and Members of Block Development Communities

Shri. K.M. Roy asked :

66.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Community Development be pleased to state the name of the Chairmen and the Members of the Block Development Committees in the State ?

Shri. G.A. Marak (Minister in-charge of Community Development, etc.) replied :

66.-    A list of Chairmen and Members of the Block Development Committees in the State is placed on the Table of the House.

Shri. Jormanik Syiem :- May we know the reason for the changes in the chairmanship of the Blocks ?

Shri. Grohonsingh A. Marak (Minister, Community Development) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the policy is that to change.

Shri. Jormanik Syiem :- Have all the Chairman of the Bocks been changed ?

Shri. Grohonsingh A. Marak (Minister, Community Development) :- Only some of them.


Construction of office buildings for Deputy Inspector of School and Staff quarters at Williamnagar

Shri. C.A. Sangma asked :

67.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Education be pleased to state -

(a) Whether the Government propose to construct the office building for the Deputy Inspector of Schools and staff quarters, at Williamnagar within the construction work start ?

(b) If so, when will the construction work start ?

(c) Whether the Government has started the construction of the residential school buildings at Williamnagar and Baghmara ?

(d) If not, the reasons for the delay ?

Shri. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister-in-charge of Education) replied :

67. (a) - Yes. The P.W.D. authorities have been asked to prepare plans and estimates.

        (b) - The work will be started as son as necessary formalities are completed.

        (c) - No.

        (d) - The plans and estimate submitted by P.W.D. does not conform to the pattern envisaged by Government. The estimates are therefore, being revised.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- (a) Sir. When were the P.W.D. authorities asked to prepare plans and estimates ?

Prof. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister, Education) :- I want notice, Sir.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- (d) when was the P.W.D. informed that plans and estimates did not conform to the pattern and, therefore, are to be revised ?

Prof. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister, Education) :- I want notice, Sir.


Utilisation of trucks in Border Areas

Shri. K.M. Roy Marbaniang asked :-

68.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Border Areas Development be pleased to state -

(a) Whether it is still necessary to maintain border trucks ?

(b) Who controls the movement of these trucks ?

(c) What is the procedure laid down for utilisation of these trucks for transportation of produces from Border Areas to Shillong and other markets ?

(d) Is there any committee to keep watch over mis-handling of the trucks by a single person ?

Shri. Maham Singh (Minister, Border Areas Development) replied :

68.  (a) - Yes.

        (b) - Border Areas Development Officers under the over all control and supervision of the Deputy Commissioner.

        (c) - Border trucks are utilised for transportation of border produce in accordance with the rules and procedure framed for this purpose, copy of which is placed on the table of the House.

        (d) - There is no such committee as the over all control and supervision have been entrusted to the Deputy Commissioners.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- 68 (d), Sir. Whether the Government is aware of the mis-use of the Border trucks in the discharge of their duties ?

Shri. Maham Singh (Minister, Border Areas Development) :- We have not received any representation to that effect.

Mr. Speaker :- Rather, the complaint.

Shri. Maham Singh (Minister, Border Areas Development) :- Yes, Sir. Complaint.


The Meghalaya Khadi Board

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah asked :-

69.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Small Scale and Cottage Industries be pleased to state -

(a) The names of the Chairman, and members of the Meghalaya Khadi Board ?

(b) Whether any salary / allowances, etc., is paid to the Chairman ?

(c) If so, the amount so paid ?

(d) Whether any perquisites are provided to the Chairman ?

Shri. Salseng Marak (Minister of State Small Scale and Cottage Industries) replied :

69.

(a)

1. Shri. J.E. Tariang

.....

Chairman

2. Shri. Humphrey Hadem, M.L.A ...

.....

Member.

3. Smti. Percylina Marak, M.L.A.....

....

Member.

4. Shri. S. DAM, Deputy Secretary to the Government of Meghalaya, Industries Department

Member.

5. Shri. J.M. Thangkhiew, Director of Industries...

....

Member.

(b) & (c) 

- Yes, the Chairman is paid an hnorarium of Rs.750 p.m.

(d)

A car is allotted to him. he draws T.A. whenever he moves on duty I collection with the affairs of the Board.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- 69 (d) Whether  a driver is allotted to the car which the Chairman is using ?

Shri. Salseng C. Marak (Minister of State, Small Scale and Cottage Industries) :- Yes, Sir.

Shri. D.D. Pugh :- When was the Board constituted ?

Shri. Salseng C. Marak (Minister of State, Small Scale and Cottage Industries) :- I want notice, Sir.    

Shri. D.D. Pugh :- Who was the previous Chairman ?

Shri. Salseng C. Marak (Minister of State, Small Scale and Cottage Industries) :- Mr. S.P. Swer.

Shri. D.D. Pugh :- Was it mandatory to bring about the change ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member knows about it.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- (d) Whether any ceiling is fixed on the T.A.

Shri. Salseng C. Marak (Minister of State, Small Scale and Cottage Industries) :- No, Sir.


Registered Co-operative Societies in the State

Shri. S.P. Swer asked :-

70.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Co-operation be pleased to state -

(a) The number of functioning registered co-operative societies whose accounts and balance sheets for the co-operative year 1975-76 are still unaudited ?

(b) Whether it is a fact that these co-operative societies were deprived of all Government aids, grants and subsidiaries during the financial year 1976-77 because of the absence of audited accounts and balance sheets for the co-operative year 1976-77 ?

(c) If the answer to (b) be in the negative, what are the criteria for consideration of giving Government aids, grants and subsidies to co-operative societies ?

(d) If the answer to (b) be in the affirmation, what steps, the Government propose to have all the accounts and balance sheets of functioning co-operative societies audited every co-operative year at a proper time ? 

(e) Whether Government propose to allow registered co-operative societies to have their accounts and balance sheets audited by a Chartered Accountant ?

(f) If not, the reason thereof ?

Shri. D.D. Lapang (Minister of State in-charge of Co-operation replied :

70.    (a) - 197 (One hundred ninety-seven).

        (b) - No.

        (c) - Government gives assistance to societies in the form of managerial subsidy and contribution to bad debt reserve fund depending on the merits of each case. Share capital participation is presently being done under the scheme of revitalisation of the co-operative credit structure as evolved by the Reserve Bank of India and the State Government jointly.

        (d) - Does not arise.

        (e) - No.

        (f) - Under the Co-operative Societies Act, the Registrar is the statutory audit authority and although a provision exists for permitting the audit by other agencies, the size of the societies and the present stage of co-operative development in the State do not necessitate audit by Chartered Accountant.


Chairman of the Meghalaya Co-operative Housing and Financial Society

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah asked :

71.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Co-operation be pleased to state -

(a) The name of the Chairman of the Meghalaya Co-operative Housing and Financing Societies ?

(b) Whether any allowances is paid to the Chairman ?

(c) If so, the amount so paid ?

(d) Whether the Chairman is provided with any other perquisites ?

Shri. D.D. Lapang (Minister of State, Co-operation) replied :

71.    (a) - Shri. Dlosingh Lyngdoh.

        (b) - Yes, conveyance allowance is paid to the Chairman by the Society.

        (c) - Rupees 500 per month.

        (d) - Sitting fee at the rate of Rs.30 per day's paid to the Chairman and other non-official members of the Board.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- 71 (d) Whether the Government propose to provide a car to the Chairman of the Society ?

Shri. D.D. Lapang (Minister of State, Co-operation) : Yes, Sir.

Shri. Jormanik Syiem :- Whether there was any Chairman before this ?

Mr. Speaker :- Whether there was any Chairman of the Meghalaya Co-operative Housing and Financing Societies?

Shri. D.D. Lapang (Minister of State, Co-operation) :- Yes, Sir.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- May we know his name ?

Shri. D.D. Lapang (Minister of State, Co-operation) :- Mr. D.D. Lapang (Laughter).

Mr. Speaker :- The sitting fee is Rs.30 per sitting ?

Shri. D.D. Lapang (Minister of State, Co-operation) :- Yes, Sir, Per sitting. Even for half-an-hour's sitting.

Mr. Speaker :- You see why I am asking this question because it has been the convention that no committee should pay the sitting fee to any Member above the sitting fee of the M.L.As in the House.... (Interruption).

        No, I am just drawing the attention of the Government.

Prof. A. Warjri :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, whether the previous Chairman had enjoyed the same facilities as the present Chairman ?

Shri. D.D. Lapang (Minister of State Co-operation) :- Yes, Sir.


Transfer of Sub-Inspector of Supply

 Shri. M.N. Majaw asked :-

72.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Supply be pleased to state -

(a) Whether it is a fact that in March, 1976 a Sub-Inspector of Supply was transferred from Simsanggiri in Shillong, while another Sub-Inspector was transferred from Shillong to Simsanggiri ?

(b) Whether it is a fact that the Sub-Inspector from Shillong refused to go to Simsanggiri and subsequently submitted his resignation ?

(c) Whether it is a fact that this resignation was refused ?

(d) Whether it is a fact that this Sub-Inspector was then ordered to take up his post at Simsanggiri on the 3rd of December 1976 but even then refused to do so ?

(e) Whether it is a fact that he subsequently re-joined his office on the 7th January, 1977 at Shillong ?

(f) - If so -.

(i) What action was taken against the Sub-Inspector for his defiance of Government orders ?

(ii) Was the absence-without-permission of the officer condoned by Government ?

(iii) Did he receive his salary for the months during which he absented himself from his duties ?

(iv) What is the name of the officer ?

(v) Is this officer now due for promotion to the rank of an Inspector ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister-in-charge of Supply) replied :-

72.    (a) - Yes.

        (b) - Before his due date of joining at his place of posting he preceded on leave on medical ground till 31st August, 1976 when a resignation letter was received from him.

        (c) - The Sub-Inspector of Supply explained by another petition that he has submitted his resignation letter because he believed that there is not more leave at his credit and also prayed for extension of his leave His explanation was accepted.

        (d) - No.

        (e) - He resumed his duties on 3rd January, 1977 after the expiry of his leave on production of a fitness certificate.

        (f)-  (i) Does not arise.

(ii) Does not arise.

(iii) His leave salary as admissible under the leave rules has been paid up to 31st August, 1976.

(iv) Shri. D. Saikia.

(v) He is a serious officer. His case for promotion is being examined along with other officers.

Shri. H. Hadem :- 72. (c). Does it mean that he had withdrawn the previous resignation ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Supply) :- Yes, Sir. He has withdrawn his resignation.

Shri. H. Hadem :- (f) (v). What is the criterion for promotion to this case ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Supply) :- Seniority cum merit.

Shri. H. Hadem :- Which comes first ? Seniority or merit ?

Mr. Speaker :- He has already said seniority first.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- 72. (c). Was the Sub-Inspector on medical leave from 3rd August until 3rd January ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Supply) :- Yes. he is on medical leave.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Will he be entitled to his salary for that period ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Supply) :- The reply is at (iii). We have paid upto 31st August 76' and the rest is still under examination.


Appointment of Competent authorities under the Meghalaya Transfer of Land (Regulation) Act, 1971.

Shri. S.P. Swer asked :

73.    Will the Revenue Minister be pleased to state -

(a) Whether the Chief Executive Members of the District Councils in the State have been appointed as competent authorities for the purpose of the Meghalaya Transfer of Land (Regulation) Act, 1971 ?

(b) Whether the fees collected on account of applications, etc. for transfer of land are realised  by these authorities ?

(c) If so, whether these fees have been credited to the account of the State Government ?

(d) If not, the reasons thereof ?

Shri. Maham Singh (Minister, Revenue) replied :

73.    (a) - Yes.

        (b) - Yes.

        (c) - No.

        (d) - Fees for application for sanction of the transfer of land shall be paid to the Competent authority [Rule 5(2) of the Meghalaya Transfer of Land (Regulation) Rules, 1974].

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- 73. (b). What is the amount of fees so far collected ?

Shri. Maham Singh (Minister, Revenue) :- I want notice, Sir.

Shri. G. Mylliemngap :- (c) Sir. Who fixed the rate of the fee ?

Shri. Maham Singh (Minister, Revenue) :- It is fixed by the Government.

Shri. Jormanik Syiem :- What is the fee ?

Shri. Maham Singh (Minister, Revenue) :- Two-fifty.

Shri. Jormanik Syiem :- Is that the maximum or the minimum ?

Shri. Maham Singh (Minister, Revenue) :- It is a fixed fee.


Music Instructor

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah asked :-

74.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Education be pleased to state -

(a) Whether it is a fact that one Miss D. Nanavati is working as Music Instructor in the Institute of Arts and Culture ?

(b) If the reply be in the affirmative, particulars about her appointment, qualifications, etc. pleased be furnished?

Shri. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister, Education) replied :-

74.    (a) - Yes, as Professor of Western Classical Music.

        (b) - She was appointed on contract for the period of one year with effect from 23rd December 1976 the date of her joining, on a fixed pay of Rs.1,000 per month with permission to work part-time for 2 days in a week at the North Eastern Hill University.

Her qualifications -

1. L. R.A.M. - Licentiate of Royal Academy of Music.

2. F.T.C.L. - Fellow of Trinity College of Music, London - was awarded gold medal.

3. L.T.C.L. - Licentiate of Trinity College of Music, London - was awarded gold medal.

4. L.T.T.D. - Licentiate of the Teachers' Training Diploma, which is affiliated to the University of London)

Others - Trained at -

(a) Tobias Mathay School of  Pianoforte Playing.

(b) Glaudic Aran-Joseph Copper School of Pianoforte Playing. She had been working as producer of Western Music in different stations of the All-India Radio and also had a wide experience in piano recital in different countries abroad.

Shri. H. Hadem :- 74 (a), where is the location of that Institute ?

Shri. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister, Education) :- In the State Central Library building, in the ground floor.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- Whether any advertisements were called for before the appointment of the Music Instructor is made ?

Shri. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister, Education) :- No, Sir.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- May we know the reason why ?

Shri. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister, Education) :- The reason is because we know that Miss Nanavati is a professor in Western music for piano. So we have taken her on contract basis and also on trial to organise piano section in the Institute of Arts and Culture.

Shri. G. Mylliemngap :- How long is the term of the contract ?

Mr. Speaker :- The answer is there in (b).


Block Development Committee Members

Shri. W. Syiemiong asked :

75.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Community Development be pleased to state -

(a) The term of a Block Development Committee member ?

(b) How many times were the Block Committees constituted since 1972 ?`

(c) What are the criteria for selection of the members ?

Shri. G.A. Marak (Minister, Community Development) replied :

75.    (a) - The term of the Block Development Committee members was initially fixed for a period of three years. However, consequences upon the appointment of non-officials as Chairman of the Block Development Committees, these Committees were reconstituted before the expiry of the three year period. The Block Development Committees were last re-constituted with effect from 1st June 1975 for a period of two years.

        (b) - Twice.

        (c) - The criteria adopted by Government for the selection of a member of the Block Development Committee are as follows :-

(1) Non-official Chairman is appointed by Government for a period of one year.

(2) Each Gram Sevak's Circle is represented in the Block Development Committee.

(3) 4 (Four) women members represent women and children's welfare programmes.

(4) Two progressive farmers, 4 members who are traditional functionaries like Syiem, Wahadadars, Sirdars, Lyngdohs, Dollois, Laskers, Nokmas, and Presidents of the Village Councils are included in the Block Development Committee.

(5) Members of the Legislative Assembly and the District Councils are ex-officio members.

(6) Officials of concerning Development Departments at the District and Sub divisional levels are  ex-officio members.


Cattle population in the State

Shri. G. Mylliemngap asked :

76.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Veterinary and Animal Husbandry be pleased to state -

(a) What is the cattle population in the State (District-wise) ?

(b) How many of them are owned by tribals District-wise ?

(c) How many are owned by non-tribals (District - wise) ?

(d) The number of licensed owners (District-wise) ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Veterinary) replied :

76.

(a)

Khasi Hills

...

...

...

2,21,550

Garo Hills

...

...

...

1,78,964

Jaintia Hills

...

...

...

67,211

Total

4,67,725

(b) and (c) - Information not available.

(d)

Khasi Hills

...

...

3,399

Khaties

Nongstoin

...

...

51

"

Garo Hills

...

...

891

"

Jaintia Hills

...

...

97

"

Total

4,438

"

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah : May e know the methods by which the Government determined the cattle population in the State ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Veterinary) :- The cattle census was conducted in 1972 by the Government on the instructions of the Government of India.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- Are these the figures of 1972 or of the current year ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Veterinary) :- These are the figures of the 1972 Census.

Shri. G. Mylliemngap :- 76 (b), why the information is not available when the census is there ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Veterinary) :- This criterion was not there when the census was conducted.

Shri. G. Mylliemngap :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, in question 76 (c) we have seen that the figure of the total number of cattle and the figure to which licenses were given do not tally. May we know the reason ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Veterinary) :- Licenses were issued to those people who have taken to this cattle business as their profession.

Shri. Jormanik Syiem :- Sir, these are the figures of 1972 but now five years have elapsed. May we know the figures of the present years ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Veterinary) :- I want notice.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- The hon. Members may realise that this a population census.

Shri. G. Mylliemngap :- May we know the number of professional cattle rearers ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- This is the number of license holders relating to the Khutis.


Buffalo Population in the State

Shri. G. Mylliemngap asked :

77.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Veterinary and Animal Husbandry be pleased to state -

(a) What is the buffalo population in the State (District wise) ?

(b) How many are owned by tribals ?

(c) How many are owned by non-tribals ?

(d) The numbers of licensed owners (District-wise) ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Animal Husbandry and Veterinary) replied :

77..

(a)

Khasi Hills

...

...

...

12,135

Garo Hills

...

...

...

32,808

Jaintia Hills

...

...

...

1,078

Total

46,021

(b) and (c) - Information not available.

(d)

Khasi Hills

...

...

3,399

Khuties

Nongstoin

...

...

51

"

Garo Hills

...

...

891

"

Jaintia Hills

...

...

36

"

Total

4,377

"

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- 77 (d), who are the competent authorities granting licenses to the owners of the Khuties ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Animal Husbandry and Veterinary) :- The Autonomous District Councils, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Shri. H. Hadem :- 77 (a), is this also the 1972 census figure ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister Animal Husbandry and Veterinary) :- This is the information supplied by the District Council, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Shri. S.D. Khongwir :- May we know whether any license fee is being imposed by the authorities on the Khutiewallas ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Animal Husbandry and Veterinary) :- There is a fee fixed on the heads of cattle but I do not remember the rate because this is a subject which falls under the District Council.

Shri. S.D. Khongwir :- May we know who collects the fee per head of cattle ?

Shri. E. Bareh (Minister, Animal Husbandry and Veterinary) :- The authority who grants the licenses.

Shri. S.D. Khongwir :- Is it the Autonomous District Council that issues the licenses ?

Mr. Speaker :- That is the reply of the Minister.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- These things come within the purview of the District Council.


Cherrapunjee Water Supply Scheme

Shri. S.P. Swer asked :

78.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering be pleased to state -

(a) Whether Government is aware of the fact that the Cherrapunjee Water Supply Scheme for villages of Pdengshnong, Maraikaphon and Nongrim has been extended to serve the Cherrapunjee Hospital and villages of Pomsohmen, Nongsawlia and the Block headquarters ?

(b) Whether Government is aware of the fact that private house connections have been permitted at Pdengshnong, Marikaphon, Nongrim, Pomsohmen and Nongsawlia villages from the main pipe line instead of the distribution (400 gallons) tanks ?

(c) Whether Government is aware of the great scarcity of water in Pdengshnong, Maraikaphon, Nongrim Pojsohmena : Nongsawlia villages ?

(d) Whether tapping of the second source to supplement the existing Cherrapunjee Water Supply Scheme has been completed ?

(e) If so, the date of completion of the pump house at the source ?

(f) The date of installation of the pumping machine ?

(g) When do Government propose to commission the pumping machine ?

(h) Whether Chowkidars/ Guards have been appointed to protect the Government properties at source ?

(i) If not, the reasons thereof ?

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering) replied :

78.    (a) - Yes, excepting Block Headquarters area.

        (b) - All connection have been given from the distribution tank except one in Maraikaphon area where there is no distribution tank in the near vicinity.

        (c) - There is some shortage during the dry period.

        (d) - Yes.

        (e) 5th March 1977.

        (f) - 3rd March 1977.    

        (g) - During November 1977.

        (h) - No.

        (i) - The contractor has not handed over the scheme after completion.

Shri. H. Hadem :-  78(i), may we know the reasons why ?

Mr. Speaker :- This is argumentative.


M.S.E.B. employees taking part in politics

Shri. K.M. Roy Marbaniang asked :

79.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Power and Electricity be pleased to state -

(a) Whether the employees of the M.S.E.B. are allowed to take part in politics and to attend political conferences ?

(b) If not, what action the Board propose to take against such persons ?

Shri. D.D. Lapang (Minister of State, Power) replied :

79.    (a) - No.

        (b) - Disciplinary action under relevant rules would be taken in such cases.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- 79 (a), whether the Government is aware that on Shri. J. Arjun working in the Maintenance Division, who is the General Secretary of the Meghalaya State Electricity Board Workers' Association is a person closely connected with the Indian National Congress ?

Shri. D.D. Lapang (Minister of State, Power) :- No, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- May we know whether the Government is aware that this person whom I have stated attended the session of the All India Congress Committee held from 20th of November 1976 at Jawaharnagar ?

Shri. D.D. Lapang (Minister of State, Power) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the person concerned applied for special leave to go to Jawaharnagar and that he remained absent from office before a decision either  to grant his leave or to refuse is taken as his application for leave reached office very late. Explanation is being called from him asking him why did he remain absence or whether he actually attended the Congress Session. These things are not indicated there. So we cannot say that during his absence from office whether he attended to some other business or attended the Congress Session as a delegate ...

Mr. Speaker :- At least the Minister is not aware whether he attended or not.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- But the Minister is aware that he applied for leave go to Jawaharnagar.


P.H.E. Contractors

Shri. C.A. Sangma asked :

80.    Will the Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering be pleased to state -

(a) Whether Public Health Engineering Department is following the P.W.D. (R. & B.) Rules in respect of contract works ?

(b) If so, whether tenderers are required to furnish the P.W.D. (R. & B.) registration numbers ?

(c) Whether Public Health Engineering Department are accepting tenders from unregistered P.W.D. (R. & B.) contractors in the State ?

(d) Whether the Government considers the maximum or minimum  less P.C. rate in awarding contracts ?

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister-in-charge of Public Health Engineering) replied :-

80.    (a) - Yes, except the registration of contractors.

        (b) - No.

        (c) - Yes, since the system of registration of contractors has not been introduced in Public Health Engineering Department.

        (d) - Generally the lowest tenders are accepted keeping the preferences for tribal contractors.

Shri. S.D. Khongwir :- 80 (d), what is the extend of the preferences to the tribal contractors ?

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, P.H.E.) :- Seven and a half per cent.

Shri. G. Mylliemngap :- When is the Department thinking of introducing the system which the P.W.D. is following in the matter of registration of contractors ?

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister P.H.E.) :- Not at the moment.


East Khasi Hills Supply Scheme

Shri. D. Lyngdoh asked :-

81.    Will the Minister-in-charge of P.H.E. be pleased to state -

(a) Whether it is a fact that the Government are seriously considering taking up of the following water supply schemes in the East Khasi Hills District ?

(i) Umsning Water Supply scheme;

(ii) Bhoilymbong Water Supply scheme;

(iii) Umroi water supply scheme;

(iv) Mawlyngdep - Umbir water supply scheme ?

(b) Whether it is a fact that investigation and survey works for the above mentioned schemes were completed during the past few years ?

(c) When were the schemes and estimates of the above water supply scheme prepared and submitted by the authorities concerned ?

(d) What are the estimated cost of the above mentioned schemes ?

(e) Whether there is any possibility of taking up any of the above schemes in this financial year ?

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister-in-charge of P.H.E.) replied :-

81.    (a) - Yes.

        (b) - Yes.

        (c) - 

(i) Umsning

(ii) Bhoilymbong

(iii) Umroi W/S

(iv) Mawlyndep Umbir

W/S Scheme

W/S Scheme

Scheme

W/S Scheme

 

 

Prepared and submitted during the year 1976.

Estimate under scrutiny

Does not arise.

Estimate under scrutiny.

(d) -

(i) Rs.9,95,300

(ii) Does not arise

(iii) Does not arise

(iv) Does not arise.

W/S Scheme

W/S Scheme

Scheme

W/S Scheme

 

(e) -

(i) The scheme can be taken up subject to availabilities of fund.

Does not arise.

Does not arise.

Does not arise.

Shri. Dlosing Lyngdoh :- (a) and (c), the replies seem to be contradictory to each other. May we know whether the Umroi Water Supply Scheme is actually completed.

Mr. Speaker :- Whether the survey work of the Umroi Water Supply Scheme is completed.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, P.H.E.) :- Survey and investigation are being taken up but not yet completed.

Shri. Dlosing Lyngdoh :- The answer to (c) (iii) is 'does not arise'. I do not understand, why ?

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, P.H.E.) :- It means that only survey and investigation works are going and after that estimates will be prepared.

Prof. A. Warjri :- Since when this proposal for taking up the Umsning Water Supply Scheme has been submitted?

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, P.H.E.) :- At present I would only say that estimates will be prepared.

Shri. Dlosing Lyngdoh :- (c) (i), why the Umsning Water Supply Scheme is delayed in the Department since 1976.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, P.H.E.) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Umsning Water Supply Scheme amounting to Rs.19,09,600 was submitted for sanction in the month of August, 1976 but due to the ban imposed by the Planning Commission for taking up of rural water supply schemes, the scheme could not be sanctioned in the year 1976-77.

Mr. Speaker :- Unstarred Question No.82.


Government Servants suspended during Emergency

Prof. Martin N. Majaw asked :

82.    Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state -

(a) Whether any Government servants in the State were suspended discharged or otherwise penalised during the emergency on grounds of being associated with banned political parties or organisations ?

(b) If so, (i) how many were there ?

(ii) have they now been re-instated in view of the orders to that effect by the Central Government.

Shri. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

82.    (a) - No.

        (b) - (i) & (ii) Does not arise.


Sadar Sub divisional Officer

Shri. C.A. Sangma asked :-

83.    Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state -

(a) Whether the Government had posted the Sadar Sub divisional Officer for East Garo Hills District at Williamnagar ?

(b) If so, when and whom ?

(c) Has the officer already joined there ?

(d) If not, the reason thereof ?

Shri. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister)  replied :

83.     (a) & (b) - Yes, Shri. D.K. War, MCS, Extra Assistant Commissioner (Revenue), Shillong, has been posted as Sadar Sub Divisional Officer for East Garo Hills District Williamnagar. The posting order was issued on 25th October 1976.

        (c) & (d) - Not yet. The officer was allowed to say in Shillong for completion of the work in connection with a acquisition, etc. of land to be transferred to the Defence Forces. On completion of the work, the officer has since handed over charge of his assignment at Shillong and will be joining as Sadar Sub divisional Office, East Garo Hills District Williamnagar shortly.


Seizure of Mustard Seeds

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah asked :

84.    Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state -

(a) Whether it is a fact that over one hundred maunds of mustard seeds were lately seized from the possession of one K. Pahoman, Licensed Trader by Rongjeng Police ?

(b) If so, in whose possession the seized mustard seeds are lying at present ?

Shri. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) replied :

84.     (a) - No.

        (b) - Does not arise.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- 84. (a) Whether the Government has received representation regarding seizure of mustard seeds?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- According to the Police report a total of 14.27 quintal of mustard seeds was seized by the Rongjong Police in the month of April 1977.


Money transaction in the Shillong Treasury

Shri. Jormanik Syiem asked :

85.    Will the Chief Minister be pleased to state -

(a) What was the total amount drawn from the Shillong Treasury -

(i) During the month of March 1977 ?

(ii) Between 1st and 15thMarch 1977 ?

(iii) During the period between 21st and 31st March 1977 ?

(b) Whether the Government are aware that there was always an extremely heavy rush or bills for drawal of money on State Government account during the month of March ?

(c) Whether the Government is also aware that large numbers of drawing and disbursing officers had to wait at the State Bank till late at night to receive payment of bills on the last date of every financial year ?

(d) If the reply be in the affirmative, what steps Government have taken to relieve such heavy rush of bills at the last moment ?

(e) What action has Government taken or propose to take to ensure submission of bills in good time before the close of financial year ?

Shri. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) asked :

85.     (a) -

Meghalaya

Central

Assam

Rs.

P

Rs.

P.

Rs.

P

7,64,86,408.39

1,49,39,164.38

5,96,198.06

1,84,37,866.55

10,78,754.55

4,40,835.89

5,53,86,335.22

1,36,31,720.34

99,596.96

        (b) - Yes.

        (c) - Yes.

        (d) & (e) - So far as Meghalaya transactions are concerned, Government have from time to time issued instructions to all concerned for presentation of bills to the Treasuries in a phased manner so as to avoid rush of payment during the month of March each year. The Government also issued instructions to all Departments and Heads of Departments to expedite issue of sanctions to avoid rush of proposal at the close of the financial year.

Shri. Jormanik Syiem :- Whether all the amount is meant for 1976-77 or for 1977-78 ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- It is quite clear. The reply is very clear.

Mr. Speaker :- In fact I don't think the Government can spend any amount unless it is voted by this House; it means after 31st March, 1977.

Shri. H. Hadem :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to make a submission here regarding Question Hour. How we are having half an hour for questions. May I request that the question hour be extended upto one hour since this is the last Session.

Mr. Speaker :- This is a matter of procedure. Since you are a Member of the Rules Committee, you may come to me and discuss the matter. If the rules permit we will see.

Shri. H. Hadem :- Sir, there is nothing specific in the rules regarding this.

Mr. Speaker :- Anyway this matter cannot be brought before the House. Before we pass on to next item, the Minister-in-charge of Education has informed me that he wanted to make a statement.

Shri. P.G. Marbaniang (Minister-in-charge of Education) :- Mr. Speaker, in course of discussion of the cut motion on Grant No.311 referred to page 175 of the Budget for 1977-78, volume 2 under detailed head - Salaries Sub-head Teachers, Training under Major Head 277 Education. The amount as shown should be read as Rs.2,94,100. But on further verification it appears that the aforesaid amount of Rs.2,94,100 has been correctly shown but the amount of Rs.5,500 under the same sub-head should be Rs.2,500 instead of Rs.5,500 as shown originally.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- A corrigendum has also been placed.

Prof. M.N. Majaw :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, the corrigendum refers to Public Relations and Information. Not on Education.

Mr. Speaker :- The statement of the Minister is itself a corrigendum. Anyway before I proceed any further I would like to point out some other mistakes which I have come across on casual verification in course of my study of the Budget. There are some casual verification in course of my study of the Budget. There are some other mistakes also. I have brought this to the notice of the House and the Government because on the day when I will exercise my power of guillotine; i.e. on the last date, I think the figure should be corrected. For instance, at page 586 the total should not be 62 lakhs, it should have been 22 lakhs. Column 17, if you total correctly it should be Rs.26,56,400. It appears to me that if is the duty of the Government to see that the persons in the Press should be more cautious.

(At voice - My  copy of correct)

        At least the copy which I have is not corrected. It appears some copies are corrected some are not. Moreover a corrigendum has not been placed with every copy. So if some copies are correct and some are not then the Members will not get the correct figures and I think it is the duty of the Government to ask the Department to scrutinise further so that there will be no confusion. Now let us pass on to next item. Mr. Khongwir to resume the discussion on cut motion No.2.

*Shri. S.D. Khongwir :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have already initiated the discussion on the grant and I was about to conclude my discussion at just about 1-30 p.m. on the 8th June. I was discussing about the quarters for the nurses but since the day before yesterday I got stuck up in the quarters of the nurse. So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to bring to the notice of the Government about the grievances of most of the nurses that they have complained that adequate quarters are not being provided for nurses and there are instances, Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the nurses have to leave the hospitals late at night. As we know that there is no mode of transportation facilities provided by the hospital authorities, most of them have to walk back from the hospital to their respective homes. And especially in the case of Ganesh Das Hospital we know, Mr. Speaker, Sir, that it is very difficult for the nurses, especially for the nurses who happen to stay at Mawlai, Mawprem Riatsamthiah and other far places. They have to pass through forest and it is quite unsafe for them specially at night time. So, I would like to suggest to the Government that at least for these nurses, quarters should be provided. And since there are no adequate quarters only a very few nurses are always available when they are required by the doctors on duty in the hospital because all the nurses will have to leave for the respective homes and it will be difficult for the doctors-in-charge to call nurse or to get the services of the nurses when required during the emergency time, specially at night and those few nurses who are staying in the quarters will have to bear the brunt of attending to the doctors even at night when they are not only duty. So, this is all about the nurses and I have already discussed about it and I would like to request the Government to come up with proposals for the improvement of the welfare of the nurses. With these few words, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I move this cut motion.

Shri. G. Mylliemngap :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, while supporting the cut motion moved by the hon. Member from Mawlai I should say that he has been very elaborate in dealing with this subject and I need not talk any further on this matter except to bring forward one or two points. Sir, my points are that in spite of these limitations and difficulties prevailing in the working condition of the nurses, yet they have rendered life saving services to many in spite of no better facilities being provided to them still they have been doing tremendous services to the people of the State. I have seen them even carrying buckets to bring water from the reservoir from different places to meet their own requirement in the quarters and also to meet the need of the patients in the hospital. And one more point, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I feel that I should bring to the notice of the Government instances where there are some nurses who are well qualified but did not get a chance at all for further study like going for B.Sc Nursing and other trainings. Another point Mr. Speaker, Sir, is that most of the tribal nurses are still with the Government of Assam and our Government have requisititoned the services of these nurses, but the Government of Assam not released them at all. And our own Government have not taken any further action whatsoever to get their services transferred and as a result of which most of these tribal nurses, due to ill-treatment and due to language difficulties and many other factors, have been forced to resign and join in the Meghalaya Government afresh. Sir, I feel that our Government should review their cases so that these poor nurses who resigned from the Assam Government services will get their past benefits Sir, some of them have been serving for the last seven or eight years but now they have started their career afresh. So, I request the Government to kindly consider their cases.

Mr. Speaker :- Now the Minister-in-charge to reply.

*Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very very grateful to the hon. Member from Mawlai because he has given very good suggestions about the difficulties of the nurses. At the very outset I would like to remind the hon. Member that in this part of our country we are extremely lucky to have our sisters in large number serving as nurses. In fact, as pointed out by the hon. Member, most of the hospital sand dispensaries are run by our nurses from Meghalaya and our Meghalaya Government are trying to bring those nurses working in  the interior parts of Assam to this place. We have also made a policy decision in the pas that these nurses i.e. .A.N.Ms. who are serving in the interior parts of Assam, who are in difficult condition, should be brought first and their service conditions should be improved. Now I would like to come straight to the point raised by the hon. Member from Mawlai. He has given some suggestions and to him I would like to reply like this that regarding staff nurses the kit allowance fixed per annum is Rs.120 and after that they are getting Rs.40 per month and this is admissible to them as per prior revision of 1975. They have been given this benefit since A.N.Ms are not classed as nursing staff and for this we are trying to see that they are also entitled to get others allowances which the other nursing staff get. And about the messing allowance I would like to inform  the hon. Member that the sisters and staff nurses are given this messing allowance at the rate of Rs.50 per month. The A.N.Ms who have been appointed before 1975 are also getting this benefit and necessary proposal for giving messing allowance to the Lady Health Visitors is under the consideration of our Government. Sir, then regarding the medical facilities to be given to these nurses, our Government have already considered their cases and those who are the member of the Contributory Health Service Scheme, these medical facilities have been given to them and also to the members of their families as admissible under this Scheme. Mr. Speaker, Sir, regarding the confirmation of these nurses in their respective posts, the matter is being taken up by the Government and the Surgeon Superintendent of Civil Hospital has given a list of such permanent vacancies.

        Regarding the incentives, we have given according to the degree of doctors.

Mr. Speaker :- The question here deals with nurses.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Because we have given incentives to the doctors the question of giving incentives to the nurses and A.N.Ms is also being considered. So we propose to give to nurses at the rate of Rs.100 to those in the most interior areas of the state; Rs.75 to those in the semi interior areas that are most inaccessible and Rs.50 to those roadside areas.

Mr. S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Yes, areas which are approachable by roads are roadside areas. I have had the occasion to come across complaints that nurses are being  transferred and at the time of transfer there was some interferences by Ministers and all that. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in this connection I would like to appeal to hon. Members to realise the fact that these transfers are done on routine basis and some transfers are done on merit according to the need. If some transfers are given effect to certain requests from the family members, big people and leaders and sometimes Government have to consider their requests. So I would appeal to the hon. members that such an interference should not be made and we will not do injustice to our nurses. In fact we have been trying to help them. We want to bring these nurses, these young girls from the interior to the urban areas so that they can be trained and be safer in the urban areas. And then regarding policy of posting of nurses, of the nurses who come out successfully. In most cases there are sanctioned posts, some of the posts have been kept vacant for the purpose of requisitioning the Meghalayans tribal nurses from the Government of Assam and Arunachal Pradesh. Regarding training of nurses, the selection of trainees is made from the Meghalayan tribals and the capacity in the training institutions is fixed as follows : 30 seats in the Ganesh Das Hospital, for staff nurses and 10 seats in the Civil Hospital, Shillong and this requirement of nurses annually comes to 40 and besides that our nurses are there undergoing training in the Dibrugarh Medical College Training Centre and in other nursing schools also. The hon. Member has suggested giving help to the private hospitals which are giving training to nurses. We find that is not feasible at the moment. Now, of course with effect from 1st October, 1976 Government increased the stipend from Rs.72 per month the break-up of which is messing allowance Rs.50 pocket money Rs.20 and dhobi Rs.2 the total comes to Rs.72. Now the present scale is Rs.125 per month, break-up of which is messing allowance Rs.90, pocket money Rs.30, dhobi Rs.5, the total comes to Rs.125. Now about the quarters for the nurses. We have constructed in the interior as well as in the urban areas many quarters. Now when I enquired I found something funny. When there is a quarter available the nursing staff are provided with accommodation, this is true for hospitals., Public Health Centres, dispensary and even in sub-centre where an A.N.M. is posted. It is a well known fact that previously the majority of nurses remain unmarried and therefore are accommodated in the hospitals. The reverse is the case these days and of married nurses have to live with their husbands and children and it will not be possible for our State to provide quarters for all the married nurses. Where no residential quarters however are available, house rent allowance is given to the nursing staff. The hon. Member has mentioned about those nurses walking back home at night. Of course it is true that some nurses had their night duty and they had to go back at night without any body-guard. We will see how  far we can help them in this respect. If we can have a vehicle then I think we can help them and that can only be done when the fund position permits. We will try to provide vehicles to those married nurses who come from far off places like Mawlai, Laban, Riatsamthiah and other places.

        I will now come to the point raised by another hon. Member who pointed out that some of the nurses in spite of rendering service to the society in many ways are not not being considered favourably. With regard to facility given he has mentioned that nurses have been found carrying buckets of water for the use which takes away their time when they are supposed to be on duty. To this I would like to say that I also sometimes carry buckets of water for my own use. It is a manual labour no doubt but I do not think that it is beneath the dignity of nurses to carry buckets of water. We have seen some Ministers Planting trees and watching them. Anyway the practice has been that we used to keep water carriers who is supposed to bring water. It may so happen that when the carrier is absent and nurses have to carry themselves. The hon. Member has also mentioned about further study of the nurses. In this connection Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to submit that we have so far sent 26 nurses for training elsewhere particularly Delhi and other places where training is available I remember that recently I have approved 2 nurses for going to Delhi or Bangalore for further training. This year, we propose to send 4 nurses for training. I am very proud to announce here Mr. Speaker, Sir, that 3 of our nurses have been given national award last year. Of course, these are the few achievements that we are making in this life. Regarding tribal nurses serving under the Assam Government. I have promised to give the break-up. It is not a fact that we have not made an attempt to bring those nurses to Meghalaya. I have had talks with the Minister, Health, Assam to release those nurses from Assam. For the information of the House, I will read out the names of the nurses and the date of their joining in Meghalaya.

Mr. Speaker :- I think the House would like to know only the number.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- The total number of nurses from Assam who have joined Meghalaya is 16. It is not a fact that we have not taken the initiative in writing to the Assam Government. It is a fact that we have requisitioned from Assam but they have not yet been released. We have asked for 29 nurses but those have not been released. The total number of A.N.Ms, who have joined in Meghalaya after releasing from Assam, is 8 and only 1 A.N.M. has not been released. There are so many nurses still in Assam. But I do not think that even in future, we will be able to bring all of them because our nurses are everywhere. If we bring them all here, we will have to abandon the training. I think more than 100 nurses are still in Assam and as far as possible, if there are vacancies, we will try to bring them all.

Shri. G. Mylliemngap :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, 29 nurses have been requisitioned but not yet released. I have mentioned categorically regarding those nurses who resigned from Assam and joined a fresh in Meghalaya.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- I am coming to that also. We have written but that question will be taken up in the Cabinet. I do not know whether they have taken up in the Cabinet or not but it seems that the policy is not to release piecemeal, but they want to release them in groups. In spite of our requests and repeated reminders, they have not been released. The hon. Member has alleged that there are nurses who have resigned from Assam Government because of ill-treatment and language problem. I do not know whether they have come and joined here. But then we have not yet thought about their seniority. I am doubtful whether we can condone their cases because there are so many nurses and how to accommodate them. So Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not think that this policy would be acceptable. If we create a precedent for condonation of some nurses, then all nurses from every place will resign and come to Meghalaya. If we adopt this policy, then all the nurses from Arunachal Pradesh, Mizoram, Nagaland and even from Delhi will resign and come back to Meghalaya and claim their seniority which will completely confuse the department. So I do not think that this point will be considered by the Government. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have replied to all the points raised by the hon. Members, I would once again say that I am grateful to the hon. member who has given the suggestions and I would request him to kindly withdraw the cut motion.

*Shri. S.D. Khongwir :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am thankful to the Minister for the information that he has given. But I would like to deal with only one or two points vis-a-vis with his information that he has given with regard to training of nurses. He has stated that  per year, there are 40 number of nurses that are being trained and that is why they cannot extend the facilities to the other private hospitals for imparting training to the other students. Well , Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would inform the Government that we know for a fact that our nurses are not only serving in Meghalaya and Assam but we have tribal nurses serving in other States like West Bengal and I know for a fact in Darjeeling, Calcutta, Bombay, Tamil Nadu and other places. This is a very good avenue for our girls to get employment outside and if we train more nurses from Meghalaya, they get the chance to go out and serve in other States. This Mr. Speaker, Sir, will bring revenue to the State because they have got their families - brothers, sister, mother, father - in Meghalaya and they send money orders to their relatives. This will be a benefit to our State. So on this, Sir, I would suggest to the Government to re-examine this matter and thus bring out more tribal nurses. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have seen that most of the nurses in the Khasi Hills Presbyterian Hospital belong to the South and that is because of the policy of the Government, our girls are not willing to go to the private institution for training. If the Government will extend their financial assistance to these private institutions, I think our tribal nurses will definitely come for training. Another point Mr. Speaker, Sir, is about the postings and transfers of nurses. The Minister I think admitted that sometimes it cannot be helped that he has to interfere with the postings and transfers of nurses. That is why, to save the situation,  I have suggested that the Government should bring out a firm and definite policy in so far as postings and transfers of nurses are concerned. I have mentioned the other day that with regard to posting of nurses in the interior and in the urban areas, there should be a definite policy from the side of the Government in so far as posting and transfers of nurses are concerned. About water, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not the contention that nurses feel that it is below their dignity to carry water. But only when there is scarcity of water especially in the Ganesh Das Hospital, the nurses instead of doing their regular work, they will have to spend most of their time in going out to ponds, wells and water taps located quite far away to bring water to the Hospitals. It is not that they feel it is beneath their dignity to carry water, but it is only that they have to spend a lot of time in carrying water for the Hospitals which affects their work so much. Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I d o not think I would ask the Minister-in-charge to clarify these things, because as I have already said that the Minister has tried his level best to clarify all these points, I cannot resist to withdraw my Cut Motion. Anyway, I do expect that the Government will try to improve from time to time with regard to the welfare of these nurses, as the Minister himself is a bigger uncle of these nurses than I am I now withdraw my Cut Motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. member leave of the House to withdraw the Cut Motion ? (Voices ... yes, yes). The cut motion is with leave of the House withdrawn. Then now Mr. Jackman Marak to move his cut motion, No.3.

Shri. Jackman Marak :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.1,71,55,000 under Grant No.35, Major Head "280 - Medical", at page 22-47" of the Budget be reduced by Rs.100 i.e. the amount of the whole grant of Rs.1,71,55,000 do stand reduced by Rs.100.

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved. Now you can raise a discussion about the supplies of medicines to the hospitals and the dispensaries in Garo Hills.

Shri. Jackman C. Marak :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just want to draw the attention of the Government to supply of medicines to the hospital and dispensaries in Garo Hills. Sir, this supply of medicines is a very very important affairs because unless we get medicines we know that we cannot improve our health. So Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have found in this Budget that Rs.1 lakh 70 thousand was provided for Garo Hills for the supply of medicines to the hospitals and dispensaries there. But I want to point out only a few points here . Here this Rs.1,70,000 was provided for the hospitals, dispensaries and all sub-centres in Garo Hills as I said already, but Sir in every hospital, every dispensary and every sub-centre in Garo Hills, there is no medicine available in all of them. Every year the Government has been providing a huge amount of money, yet there is no medicine in all these hospitals and dispensaries in Garo Hills. Why this is so, the Government should have known better. You know what happens, Sir. I will cite a concrete example. Once a poor patient came to Tura just in the month of January and I remember him well, he requested me to take him to the hospital. I took him to the Civil Hospital, but what happened the doctor said to him to the Civil Hospital, but what happened the doctor said to him that there is no medicine and if he likes he will get the best medicine and then gave a prescription of that medicine. He said you can get this medicine in the pharmacies. Mr. Speaker, Sir, what is the policy of the Government, I do not know why these Pharmacies can have the medicines whereas these hospitals and dispensaries do not have these medicines.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to seek information from the hon. Member if the can give the name of the medicine prescribed by the doctor because this will come under the drugs Distribution Rules.

Shri. Jackman C. Marak :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not possible to give the name of the drugs, generally I am speaking here and at least important medicines should be supplied to all these hospitals and dispensaries. The Government should at least consider this matter seriously because, if the doctors give only the prescriptions to the patients then many of the poor patients will be in great difficulty because they are not into a position to purchase a single tablet. So Sir, I would request the Government, through you to kindly see that supply of medicines is made available to all these hospital and dispensaries in Garo Hills in the near future so that the poor patients can get the benefit of having all the required red medicines from these hospitals, dispensaries and sub centres.

Mr. Speaker :- You mean to say that all these medicines will be supplied free ?

Shri. Jackman C. Marak :- I do not mean that the Mr. Speaker, Sir, which medicines will be supplied free. Now, last point, I would request the Minister-in-charge of Health to kindly visit personally all these hospitals and dispensaries if he gets time in future and with these few words, I resume my seat.

Mr. Speaker :- Anybody would like to participate ?

Shri. P.G. Momin :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, while associating myself with the Cut Motion moved by the hon. Member from the other side, I would like to confine only to very few observations. Sir, at the very outset of my speech, as the hon. Member has just spoken before me. I feel, I would also fall in line with him. Of course, it cannot be in the real sense of the term, but only to some extent. It is a well known fact that supply of medicines to the hospitals and dispensaries located in our State. I would say, is not properly done. But the question of medicines supplied to those dispensaries and hospitals, I would admit, is inadequate. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the matter is very serious especially in the rural institutions. I mean the health institutions. The institutions are located in the rural areas, and the store of medicines there is very very inadequate. As the matter is well known to each and every member that the persons who are to solely to derive the utility and the services of doctors and nurses in the rural areas, had to depend entirely on medicines available in such institutions. In fact, while the persons utilising the services of medical practitioners or nurses. I would say that no medicines are abundantly available in the rural dispensaries and hospitals. As there is no other stock of medicines located nearby and that there are no pharmacies etc. as it is well known to each one of us the people are deprived of the facilities in this regard in the entire rural areas. That is why, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to enlighten the House that in the previous years I took up the matter concerning the dispensaries and health centres located in the rural sectors with the authority concerned. But in this regard, I would not put the blame on the Department because the matter is well known to me. When I took up the matter it has been brought to light that the money provided for the purpose is not adequate or sufficient, and therefore, if the money provided for the purpose is not sufficient, I do not know as to how the Department can find ways and means to meet the requirements in this regard. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not want to lengthen my speech, but I would request Mr. Speaker, Sir, the mover of the Cut Motion that instead of moving the Cut Motion, he should be more liberal so that more money can come into the Department so as to enable the Department to meet the requirements in the future. So, I would request the Mover of the Cut Motion to more liberal so that we get more money, and by doing so, we will be able to meet all the requirements. With these few words, Sir, I resume my seat.

Mr. Speaker :- Now, the Minister-in-charge of Health to reply.

*Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- I am very grateful to the mover of the cut motion for pointing out the short-comings of the Department in the supply of medicines to Garo Hills. And one point he said that no medicines are available in all the dispensaries and in all the health centres. I am sure it is just a generalisation when he said all dispensaries, all health centres because, the short supply of medicines occurs in certain dispensaries and health centres but not in all. Mr. Speaker, Sir, these is a complaint that medicines are not available in most of the dispensaries. I have gone through this in detail and have asked the officer concerned about this short supply of medicines. There is one glaring fact. Our people also are medicine-mined people and to meet the requirements we have not been able to augment the fund position so that difficulty is there. Now when I went into the details I found that in certain dispensaries people from villages, the sick people came and took medicines for about a week. Say for example, 20 tablets for 4 to 5 days, they came and took it like that, but I do not know whether they took the full course or not or they just left it like that. So it is just a waste. From these observations I can say that many of those villagers came to take medicines or tablets from the dispensaries but did not swallow completely all those medicines. They just left them like that and those tablets can be given to some other persons. Now I come to the conclusion including myself. If the doctor tells me to take 20 tablets I will consume only 10 and 10 will be a waste. This is the habit with us not to take the full course and that is why we are always asked by the doctors to stay in the Hospital so that those doctors, nurses, can force us to take the full course. That is why I have passed an order to the doctors and medical officers to supply medicines only for a few days so that those patients will come back to complete the course. Now in this connection also Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have given order that each dispensary should display in the notice board that such drugs are available on such dates so that the patients when they come to the dispensaries they will come to know that such drugs are available on such dates. But it is very difficult in the villages because most of the people are illiterate and so it may not work properly. Now Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will just break up as to how we supply medicines to dispensaries and hospitals. Now for the supply of medicines to Garo Hills....

Shri. Jackman C. Marak :- These things are not required.

Mr. Speaker :- The hon. Member does not really want the breakup, but he just wants to draw the attention of the Government.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- I would like to State the amounts which each dispensary and health centres is receiving medicines. If the hon. Member not want then. I would simply ask the hon. Member to withdraw the Cut Motion.

Shri. Jackman C. Marak :- I withdraw the cut motion.

Mr. Speaker :- Has the hon. Member leave of the House to withdraw his cut motion ?

(Voices - yes, yes)

        The cut motion is with leave of the House withdrawn.

        Now let us come to grant No.36. The Minister in-charge of Health to move.

Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the recommendation of the Governor, I beg to move that an amount of Rs. 34,78,700 be granted to the Minister-in-charge to defray certain charges which will come in the course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1978 for the administration of the head "281 - Family Planning".

Mr. Speaker :- Motion moved, and I have received two cut motion. Mr. Rowell Lyngdoh and Mr. W. Syiemiong to move cut motion No.1.

Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the total provision of Rs.34,78,700 under grant No.36 major head "281 - Family Planning" at page 248 of the budget be reduced by rupees one, that is, the amount of the whole grant of Rs.34,78,700 do stand reduced to rupee one.

Mr. Speaker :- Cut motion moved. Now you can initiate the discussion.

Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, while moving this cut motion, I have stated that we certainly disapprove the policy which has been followed by the Government in the matter of family planning during the last few year. Sir, as I have said earlier, though this family planning is important in one respect if we consider in the context of the growth of population in the whole world as well as in the whole country of India. But as we have time and again brought to this House the discussion in this particular subject that is, to control the birth rate in this part of the country specially among the members of the Scheduled Tribes in this State, is not at all advisable. Because we have heard from so many hon. members in this House even in the present session also who have advocated that the tribals within the State are dwindling away in the rate of growth of population compared to other communities which are existing in the whole country. Therefore, I feel that Government should not bring in this policy to control the birth rate in this part of the country. Of course, we cannot prevent if individual want to control themselves. Of course, that is not in the sphere of the Government to interfere when the individual volunteers it. But to have a Government programme to spend a lot of money in this and go round the State, to every work nook and corner of the State and preach sterilisation and the application of so many devices for control of birth rate is not really advisable. As it was done in the last few years, there have been places like, Balat, Mawhati and some other places, Sir, which the Department has really implemented the family planning programme excessively. Of course during the current session we understand that the view of the Government was not directed towards this sterilisation or any sort of birth control. But they say they will concentrate their energy towards the welfare of the family, of the children as well as the mothers. Of course, this I appreciate. But then when I look at the budget through so many corrections have been made in the budget many aim at giving effect to the programme, to follow the this policy. What we found here in the budget if we look at page 257 Vol.2 we still find here that there is pital levels and also the primary health centres. So Sir, even though this much amount is provided, but it is a taken toat the Government have not decided to do away with compulsory family planning programme and sterilisation.

Mr. Speaker :- Last time, if I remember, right, the Chief Minister has said that these should be no more question of the programme. But if the people themselves willingly want to have this, the Government will have to give or to provide facilities. I think that was what the Chief Minister has said.

Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh :- I think the Government for that, but as certain provisions are there in the Budget which .....

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the information of the hon. member, I have categorically stated in this House about this Family Planning Programme. I said that if somebody comes to the Government for some help they require on this, the Government will provide them with the facilities.

Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh :- Right Sir. Since the Leader of the House has assured us that there will not be any compulsory application, I will not raise that point. But if we turn to the correction slip which the Government has circulate specially this correction in the district budget, of course, there are three district budget Books and there you will see under Garo Hills district a corrigendum to the detail estimate of revenue and expenditure for the year 1977-78 for the East and West Garo Hills Districts under "head - 281 - Family Planning" we will see at page 35 that the correction is made. That is made D. - Maternity and Child Welfare and the total provision under that particular sub-head at pages 145-146 is to the tune of Rs.6,11,000

 (at this stage the Speaker left the chamber and the Deputy Speaker took the chair)

and in Jaintia Hills District, under the same sub head we find that it is provided for 2,18,000, whereas in Khasi Hills District we find that a total provision in the same sub-head was Rs.2,51,000. So Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if we consider that maternity and child health will require so much of money, I feel that it should be based on population. But here, of course, I do not know the criteria how the Government is going to distribute this amount. Of course, they may come up with a clarification. There must be special grounds for which this fund is allotted. Because, Sir, if we look at this, we see a lot of variations of the amount earmarked which is not based at all on population.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would request the hon. mover of this cut motion not to worry, this is only budgetary provision. Even if it shown for any particular district, when it is not possible to spend the amount, this has to be transferred to another district. So please do not worry.

Shri. W. Syiemiong :- It is not a question to worry about. It is a question of seeking a clarification from the Government.

Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh :-  If there is a principle under which we have based this whole amount either to the specialty or the susceptibility of some diseases or because of certain criteria in which Government having a special consideration for any part of the State for that of course we do not have anything to say. But since there is no mention about it, we would like to have clarifications from the Government.

Shri. Williamson A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the information of the hon. Member, that particular scheme and the amount proposed to be spent for a district is based on the population basis. I can give you the indication that it has been contended to be met out of the over-all allotment. I have asked the department to find out the detailed allotment for the proposal of the different departments. So the East and West Khasi Hills Districts would be getting 18 crores, East and West Garo Hills District, 8l crores and Jaintia Hills District a little more than 3 crores. From here, it is clear that the concept of population from the different areas is being maintained.

Shri. Rowell Lyngdoh :- Of course, based on the whole budget, we find that it is so as the Chief Minister has stated. But in this particular grant, we find otherwise. Even then, since the Chief Minister has clarified, I hope the Minister-in-charge may still have to clarify some more points also in this respect. I find under this Family Planning Programme that everything should be reconciled. Moreover, when I discuss this subject as a policy, I would request the Government that the present Abortion Law which is in existence and which we have adopted during the emergency must be reconsidered whether it is really necessary in this Scheme of ours. With these few word, I move this cut motion.

*Shri. D.D. Pugh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I shall not in my deliberation actually disapprove the family planning programme especially, in view of the assurances given to the House by the Leader  of the House that no coercion would be used. But all the same, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir,  I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that in the provision made in the budget and the actions of the Government in the House during the passage of any particular demand, indicates the policy of the Government in respect of that particular programme and also the manner in which the Government intends to implement the programme. To elucidate my point, Mr. Deputy Speaker, sir, I would like to state that I am now referring to the amount of Rs.10,55,000 entered in column 17 on page 248 against the sub head "F" - Compensation. This budgetary provision proposed to be made, was a clear indication of the fact that the Government policy and intention was to take up approximately 10,000 cases of sterilisation. However, the Government saw a very very strong opposition to such a policy which was very effectively voiced by the hon. Members from Jaiaw and Nongthymmai. The Chief Minister, as you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, came out with a categorical statement and assurance to the effect that the Government would not utilise this for that part of the programme i.e. sterilisation. Then Sir, you also know, the Speaker himself in his wisdom, directed the Government to come forward with a corrigendum which the Government promptly did. My contention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is that while it is most gratifying to note that the Government has conceded upon the implementation of the sterilisation part of the family planning programme against the interest of the State, but in this connection, I would like to point out several discrepancies and irregularities in respect of the Government actions in bringing this corrigendum. First of all, as the House knows, the grant now under reference concerns, a Scheme which is hundred per cent a Centrally Sponsored Scheme which means that prior approval of the Centre ought to have been sought before any transfer of any budgetary provision is made from one sub-head to another, which tantamounts to re-appropriation even before the demand has been voted. It is true Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that I am fully aware of the fact that the State Government is competent to bring about are-appropriation of the funds from one sub-head to another even in respect of Centrally Sponsored Schemes. But the fact is that in case the Central Government refused to approve the action that re-appropriation and consequently, refused to reimburse the funds involved, then I hope that the State Government is aware of the fact that the Schemes will have to be treated as State Plan Schemes. That being the position, my first question is; Whether it was possible for the Government, in that every short period of time. I am talking of the time between the moment that the Government was directed by the Speaker to come forward with a corrigendum and the time when the corrigendum was actually brought - a period of just a few hours - to have sought the prior approval of the Central Government ?

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I may it clear. If the Government of India does not want to release the funds, we will not accept it.

Shri. D.D. Pugh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the second question that is: Is the State Government prepared to finance the Schemes out of its own resources could the Central Government refuse to reimburse the funds involved because of its refusal about the re-appropriation. The second point Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that I would like to make is this. As you very well know, a part of this demand had already been voted during the March Session of this august House when the Government have then come up to this House with a vote-on-account. The fact that the Government came up with vote-on-account proposal is a clear proof of the fact that, on their own sayings and on the implied admission, funds were urgently needed under this head of Account so as to enable the Government to go forward with its programme concerning family planning. Therefore the question that comes to mind is this. Are we to believe that during these past two months, March and April, that the Government has not spent even Rs.5 out of that amount that had been voted as a vote-on-account ? If so, how can, the Government in truth, now come up to the House with this proposal to transfer or re-appropriate the entire amount of Rs.10,55,000. Even if more Rs.5 have been expended  then the position is that the Government is able truthfully to transfer only Rs.10,54,995 and not Rs.10,55,000. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I submit that the sensible, logical and correct thing to have done would have been to reserve at least some amount in column 17 and, if possible they should have reserved the actual amount that has already been spent if the Government is not in a position to know what actual amount has been spent during the these last two months. The sensible thing would have been to have left a token provision of at least Rs.5. That would have been enabled the Government approach the Central Government for reimbursement of whatever is actually expended. Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if it is true that an amount 'X' has already been spent, then the question that follows is : Will Government's present action of re-appropriating not tantamount to asking the House to be a party to jugglery in financing ?

        Further more, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have reasons to suspect the possibility that, that party of the demand sought to be voted by this House in this current Session has already been spent not only during the past two months of the current financial year but in the past financial year 1976-77 and therefore, the action of the Government that amounts to having come to the House at this belated stage with this staggaring proposal in order to enable it to regularise the expenditure already incurred in the past financial year. If true, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would submit that the correct thing for the Government  to have done is to come forward with a supplementary Demand last March. I am fully aware of the difficulties of the Government in ascertaining the actual amount required as early as February or March because the Budget proposals perhaps had been finalised in the month of February and, therefore, the Government would not have been in a position to ascertain or to find out the actual amount involved. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would submit that if they were not able to come forward in March with a Supplementary Demand, they have to come forward to the House to regularise the expenditure incurred during the financial year 1976-77. In effect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my overall submission is this : That there has been a major deviation in the policy of the Government concerning Family Planning programme and that this irregularity is sought to be met in and through a corrigendum. This corrigendum that has been brought I say, Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, is technically defective and, in fact, not possible. Therefore, I would suggest Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that in order to avoid an impossible situation and further embarrassment for the Government in the future, the Government should come forward with a further amendment or a corrigendum . I am saying that it is an impossible situation because unless at least a sum of Rs.5 is shown for a token provision, you cannot approach the Central Government for reimbursement of the amounts that had already been spent either during the past two months or the amounts spent in the past financial year.

*Shri. B.B. Lyngdoh :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on this subject of the cut motion I am very glad indeed about the consensus that has evolved in this House in this House through discussions regarding one particular programme - the programme of sterilisation and birth control in our State. However, Sir, I would like to discuss just one little point on this programme. That is about one particular item, i.e. in the matter of birth control. Sir, our country is a land noted for its high sense of human values and a land of morality and religion and therefore there is one aspect of the process of birth control which is directly opposite to this conception of our country on human values and morality and religion. I am speaking about the encouragement to abortion. Whether a person prefers to remain alone or to have children, that is another matter. But after a human life has come, either it is a boy or a girl, whether he is an old man, sick or a healthy or a deformed man, in our country we have a great sense of respect for human life. Therefore, to legalise abortion or encouragement of abortion amounts to murder. I would like to impress upon the leaders of the public especially in this part of the country that we reconsider and rethink over this approach and make a human approach to human life. At least in this one particular aspect we may reconsider and I would suggest that we the leaders would not encourage the need to have birth control and so far as this particular aspect of the matter is concerned we would not encourage. This is only my further point that I would like to bring the House to consider....

Shri. S.N. Koch :- Whether hon. Member is speaking against or in favour of the Cut Motion ?

Shri. B.B. Lyngdoh :- That is why I said it is murder. To justify homicide or to save the life of the mother you may have to kill the baby but just for the purpose of population control, encouragement to the process of abortion, I said, is against the spirit of the conception of this country. This is my only point in support of this cut motion.

Shri. S.N. Koch :- Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am very much thankful to the mover of this cut motion but I cannot support him. I am sorry for that. The main thing is this cut motion is that the Government should not encourage family planning. In course of his deliberations he spoke against abortion, sterilisation and family planning because he thinks that there is an apprehension of dwindling away of tribal population. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I must say that the hon. Member has got every right to entertain such suspicion or express his views which nobody can bar. With the question remains whether he can substantiate his plea or not. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member, while submitting, said that our tribal population in the State is not growing at part with the growth rate in other parts of the country. Perhaps that is his contention but from the statistics I would like to submit before this House that it is just the contrary. In Meghalaya, it is of course on religious basis, growth  of Christian population is 46.98 percent, Hindus 18.50 percent and of these Hindus as shown here, I think 50 percent, again belong to tribal community. There are tribal Hindus and also in Khasi Hills and Jaintia  Hills, Garo Hills there are tribal who have not embraced Christianity...

Shri. B.B. Shallam (Minister of State, Border Area Development) :- I am not a Christian but I am not a Hindu either.

Shri. S.N. Koch :- But it is written in this Meghalaya Hand Book published by the Government.

Shri. B.B. Shallam (Minister of State, Border Area Development) :- If it is there it should be rectified.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- I raise a point of order, Sir. The hon. Member is trying to mislead the House by bringing the question of Christian and non-Christian tribals.

Shri. S.N. Koch :- I think I  am misunderstood. This 46.98 per cent, is mentioned here and since there is  no other basis I have to take this basis. Anyway, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is one of the points which is very important. Now I will discuss my point one by one. The first point is that the population growth of tribal is not lesser than the others in this State and secondly very often we hear of the apprehensions as expressed by the hon. Members, citing the example of the States like Tripura and Sikkim and Tripura do not exist here because those were the places where Kings ruled. I mean to say, that the despotic kings ruled over there.

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- Are the people of Tripura and Sikkim never going in for Family planning ?

Shri. S.N. Koch :- Leaving aside all thee statistical points, Sir, now I would like to submit before this House that this family planning programme has been very much misunderstood by the hon. Members of the opposite benches, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, they have misunderstood the meaning of this family planning and if we scan the meaning of this programme we will also see that it does not mean sterilization or abortion only. Sir, these words Family Planning Programme mean the welfare of the mother, welfare of children and also the welfare of the father. Sir, we cannot exclude any of them. I mean the family members from the purview of the words Family Planning Programme.

Shri. S.D. Khongwir :- What about the meaning of the provision of law ?

Shri. S.N. Koch :- Sir, I think we are not before the court of a Magistrate. Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I believe that the hon. Member of the opposition benches will also admit that it is not always the number which counts much but it is the quality which counts much. Now if there is no family planning scheme and if a mother is to be get endless children, then what will be the condition of her health, position and lot and her sufferings from such continuous child-birth. Sir, this aspect of the matter should be considered and we being the representatives of the people should not forget  this aspect of the matter. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the policy of the Government in so far as this family planning programme is concerned is one of the best and most important subjects and the policy pursued by the Government is very very nice and we should help the Government so that it can proceed with its policy so far as this family planning programme is concerned. Sir, one of the hon. Members and the Leader of the Opposition have spoken about the morality, but Sir, for the betterment of the society for the betterment of the State and also for the betterment of our country, we cannot always keep this morality at the higher level.

        Mr. Chairman, Sir 

(At this stage the Mr. Deputy Speaker, left the Chamber and Shri. H. Hadem, Chairman, took the Chair) 

may I remind the hon. Member about the scientific experiment carried out by our scientists and the doctors who are to murder hundreds and thousands of lives to save the lives of other person. Sir, here let us not only speak about the scientists and doctors but also the student of Colleges having science. Sir, these P.U.Sc, or B.Sc, or scientists have to kill or take the lives of others to save the lives of human beings. So, Sir, if we stick about the morality then I think we will not be able to save the lives of human beings and by doing so we will not be able to help our State march forward. So, I would like to say here that we must not mix this morality with this family planning programme and miss the real import of this very very important scheme. With these few observations, I wholeheartedly support the policy of the Government and I oppose the cut motion.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- Mr. Chairman, Sir, I have a few points to be raised at this stage and I have also spoken in the general discussion on the Budget about this matter and now I am also prompted to stand here to make an attempt to inject some thinking on the policy of the family planning programme in our State. Sir, here I would not like to take the opportunity to say anything about what Mr. Koch has said. I am leaving it to other friends to tackle the points raised by him. Sir, this cut motion has come here to decry the policy of the family planning programme of the  Meghalaya. However, this policy of family planning programme of State our State has been made most specific and categorical by the Government after the transfer of Rs.10 lakhs and odd from compensation to the other heads. We appreciate this responsiveness of the Leader of the House to agree to the consensus of opinion and also to make a policy statement that there will be no sterilization in our State except when the people volunteer themselves. There will be no compulsion or coercion. Sir, if we go through Page 256 (g) we will find provisions made for  professional practitioners, and at (c) and (a) we will find such provisions for Family Planning Programme and also on mass education to the public on this particular subject. The provisions are the result of the national policy. We know that the national policy is to curb the population growth of our country because of the fact that India is over populated  and the birth rate is very very high and there is a great need in the national context that the population should be controlled or curbed. But Sir, why we are trying to bring this cut motion here, at the hon. Mover of the cut motion has said, is to see whether this national policy of family planning & family welfare is relevant in the State of Meghalaya. Now in our State, as I said the other day we have to appreciate one very important fact that we constitute only 80 percent of the total population and now so far as the 80 percent of the tribal population is concerned, I have also taken the opportunity to bring home the facts as stated by the anthropologists and demographers who have made specific remarks that the tribal population in the north eastern regions is decreasing rapidly due to very high death rate and low birth rate. Now my point, Sir, is without going through the statistics or make ourselves confused by the statistical records , we have to accept the fact that the growth of population of the scheduled tribes is not commensurate with the growth of population of the non-tribals, and for that matter in relation to the country as a whole. Therefore, the question before us is whether the national policy is relevant or not relevant to our State which constitutes the tribal population of 80 percent. Now if we are to consider this question very carefully and also take into account the cue from the forecast of anthropologists there will be a situation in which all of us will have to answer. Therefore, this policy of family planning or family programmes although it is very relevant to a large segment of India it is not relevant to us in so far as reducing the birth rates. I am keeping in mind also the various tribals in Bihar, Orissa and Madhya Pradesh where the policy of family planning programme is different. There, the policy is not a policy of status quo, a policy of containment. There is a policy, a dynamic policy. Here I feel that it is high time that we as responsible leaders apply our minds on our own to reduce the policy on the need of family programme. What I mean to say Mr. Chairman, Sir, is that I believe that it is high time that we chalk out a policy of family programme which will be in tune with the conditions available in our State. So I would venture to suggest that the policy of family programme here in our State should be to encourage birth rate among the scheduled tribes or among the tribals who are scheduled or non scheduled. I would think that instead of giving awards for best performances in family planning we should consider giving awards to the family which produces more children but healthy children. In fact most of us use and apply the slogan "Produce more children". Even here in this House, I know many have got big families.

Shri. W.A. Sangma (Chief Minister) :- On a point of information. Does the hon. Member suggest that there should be a bachelors tax ? (Voices - No Sir).

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- Mr. Chairman, Sir, you will recollect that in the pre-Independence days I remember when I was a young man that certain families which had many children were given awards. Sir, I think now we should seriously apply our minds to this point. But according to the policy statement by the Leader of the House that we do not like to have sterilisation in a coercive way. But my line of policy goes a step further that we go in for encouragement to increase the population of the tribals in the State and give them all incentives. We may reconsider the policy when we reach certain stage of population growth which is at part with other people. But at the moment Mr. Chairman, Sir, I would seriously request the members of the Treasury Benches and particularly the Heath Minister that he considers this proposal for having a policy of family programme which is in tune with, let us say, the concept of the tribal people in so far as the population programme is concerned. Sir, I do not want to say much, I only like to bring home this one fundamental point for the consideration of the Government.

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- Sir, I have full sympathy with the mover of the cut motion. I appreciate his point. But if I support the cut motion it will mean I am not appreciating his point. Therefore, I appreciate his point and is cut motion by opposing it. I really see the conviction, the sincerity and the seriousness of the mover while moving his cut motion. In this speech, a sense of fear is there, a sense of disappointment is there and when he looks into the budget a sense of helplessness is revealed. Of course he has not mentioned about his personal experience, about the evils of sterilisation or abortion. Therefore why I say I oppose because the Leader of the House has been already made already made a statement that there will be no more sterilisation and a corrigendum has been issued to the effect that the provision should for maternity and child welfare even then that disappointment is there, that sense of fear is till there. Therefore, I would suggest to my friend that instead of bringing this cut motion it is better for him to go to the people and tell them, not go to these institutions. If we wants to grow more people do not go to the hospitals.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- But do not entice the people to go.

Shri. H.E. Pohshna :- There has been mention by the Leader of the Opposition that birth control affects morality while mentioning about abortion he has mentioned about murder. This murder of family planning is an old question that it is opposed its old age. What have we been doing long ?

        Even then I wonder if we have at all realised the evils of sterilisation and abortion. Therefore since our Chief Minister has made a statement that the amount of provided in the budget under Family Planning has been diverted to the head under Maternity and Child Welfare all fees have been dispelled and while. I oppose the cut motion which the hon. Member has moved I would request him and some of us to jointly tell the people about the evils of family planning as well as its blessings to some and tell people these are the evils of family planning. Some hon. Members have mentioned about the tribals of Tripura. I may mention about the tribals of Tripura. I may mention about the Red Indians also. If we say that they are going to be extinct I do not think that the extinction is because of family planning the Red Indians have become extinct loan before the invention of family planning and I never heard that the tribals of Tripura had ever adopted family planning. Therefore, Sir, we should be very sincere and perfect in saying anything. The hon. Member from Jaiaw said that not go straight forward for "grow more people". Therefore, with great regret; I oppose the cut motion.

Shri. P.R. Kyndiah :- The cat is out of the bag.

Mr. Chairman :- Any hon. Member who would like to participate ?

        Now, I will come upon the Minister, Health to reply.

*Shri. S.K. Marak (Minister, Health) :- Mr. Chairman, Sir, on this particular subject of family planning, in every session, lot of time was taken because it is a very important subject. It is true that some remarks have been made about the policy. Now, this particular term 'family planning' has been changed. We have received a letter from the Government of India that the term should be changed to family Welfare Planning. Another thing Mr. Chairman, Sir, for Meghalaya State, family planning is a thing of the past, as we have heard from the Chief Minister about the policy decision taken very recently for the future of the State whether we are going for sterilisation or not. All these things have been clearly and specifically stated by the Chief Minister. I do not want to touch on this particular item-sterilisation. We have already issued circulars as early as last April to all Civil Surgeons and Health Officers  to stop that. I also did on my own in anticipation of the approval of the Cabinet because I feel that, as pointed out by some hon. members, our population should not be very much controlled. During the last conference of the Health Ministers, many of the Ministers particularly those who have come from the Hill States, expressed concern about the policy of family planning policy being adopted in the States. Those who have attended have cited the instances of the tribals living in Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh. At the same time, some experts pointed out that it is not simply because they have adopted family planning. It is the natural dwindling of population of tribals. We have heard that a number of tribes in the Andaman and Nicobar islands that in spite of the fact no family planning programme was there, these tribes have steadily started dying out. The reason given by the anthropologists and other experts is that it is not because they were asked not to produce many children. But when they come in contact with civilisation with other parts of the country, they cannot resist certain diseases to which they are very much vulnerable. That is why, they are dying out. I think same is the case with the Red Indians. I think that these natives were not asked to do family planning. Even the term family planning came into existence after these tribes, the Red Indians of America, were dying out. It may be due to some other factors for dwindling the population of these tribes. We cannot ascribe it to a single factor. There may be many other factors. Some hon. Members have cited an instance of Tripura people also. I think even before Independence that is before 1947, that particular programme came into existence only very recently. But the people of Tripura have been over-run much earlier than that time. I would submit that it is not because of family planning that the tribes in Meghalaya will dwindle away. I would request the hon. Members not to think that simply because family planning is done away within the State, the population will multiply. Let us not lose sight of the fact that dwindling of population may be due to some other causes like diseases and natural calamities. These may be the reasons for the dying out of our tribes. I have read the news item given by one anthropologist that the Khasis and the Lushais are dying out and they have said that they will become extinct within a couple of decades. I do not believe that in 20 years, we will all die out. Sometimes I am tempted not to believe in anthropologists. They come to our State to study our origin, descent and so on and write down these to get doctorate degree. I would, therefore, appeal to the hon. members not to believe entirely in these sayings. So also. I am afraid in 20 years the Khasis, the Garos, and the Jaintias and all the tribes living in the State may be double, if not tribble. If you look at the census of 1961-1971, you will find that we have increased. It is not because we have compelled the people to get sterilisation. But there are some factors which are responsible for the dying out of certain tribes. This may be one of the causes of family planning provided that it is not done in a reckless manner. In this particular State we have not done in that way. Very few have been sterilised and when they come to the Bureau, they are looked after very well and they are sent back to their homes. You will find that our tribes will be able to multiply and it may be that they were just taking up very seriously the maternity and child welfare programme in order to look after their mothers and sisters and it may be that they will be able to produce more. I have already narrated in the past that the villages where there are many children and if you look at the mother you will find that the mother is sick because if you ask how many children (Bell Rang...)


Adjournment

Mr. Chairman :- The time is up and the Minister will continue his reply next day. The House stands adjourned till 9.30 A.M. on Saturday the 11th June, 1977.

Dated Shillong

D.S. KHONGDUP

The 10th June, 1977

Secretary

Meghalaya Legislative Assembly.

******